How would the Republic from Star Wars turn out if the Jedi Succeeding in their Little Coup d'état over a democratic-elected Chancellor?
Would the Senate and the People accept it without any issue?
Would they take Issue and Demand the Jedi to Stop at Once due to Palpatine being Beloved Figure?
I mean how were the Jedi going to succeed with their takeover?
Other urls found in this thread:
youtu.be
amazon.com
twitter.com
The Jedi weren't seizing control, they were removing Palpatine
Without Palpatine influence, what remained of the separatists would have fallen apart, and the more corrupt elements of the Senate would have had no leader to rally behind.
It could have gotten messy but until Palpatine claimed otherwise, the Jedi were above reproach
When you think about it, killing Palpatine would have REALLY shifted the balance in the favor of the Jedi.
There was a ridiculous number of moving parts during the Clone Wars and it only lasted as long as they did because the guy in charge on their side was literally feeding information to the other side on a regular enough basis that the War kept dragging on with more and more casualties to their troops, requiring more and more effort to compensate.
If Sidious dies then the Seperatists (or at least the parts actually driving the war itself forward rather then the much more reasonable planets who were dissatisfied with the Republic) are effectively rudderless and leaning towards peace since even Nute Gunray was tired of all the bullshit that came with his dead.
The Senate is still corrupt, but the key figure of it's corruption and the one paying most of the bribes and with the most skill at exploiting weaknesses is dead. Hell, if they ONLY killed him and then just had him disappear and not even publicly admit that they did it a TON of their problems suddenly would become easier to deal with.
The only weakness in Sidious' plan was that it required him to work at all, so if Windu had managed to waste him the whole thing would fall apart, especially since the only other guy who knew the details he'd had Anakin kill a few days ago.
I don't think Sidious cared about his plan surviving him. He was selfish, not like he wanted change for it's own sake.
I agree completely; Sith kind of are inherently self-absorbed dickheads. Their whole philosophy and even their code thing is based on it.
Even without Palptine the CIS would have won the war through sheer numbers in a war of attrition.
The Seperatists were completely BTFOing the Republic though. Sure they had Palpatine helping them but they were also legitimately winning a war of attrition. A single clone costs the same amount as a large squad of battle droids plus years of growth and training. The GAR couldn't keep up. Near the end of the war Palpatine was actually a huge hindrance to the CIS. He got Grievous and later the rest of the Seperatist leadership killed by leaking their locations. If Mace had successfully murdered the Chancellor the Jedi would still have lost the war.
>filthy alien scum thinking their clockwork clankers are in any way equal to an enemy that can think
>especially with Grievous dead
History has shown time and time again that attrition and higher troop numbers almost always beats out superior training and equipment in the end. There are exceptions, of course, but the general trend of history is that numbers win barring a HUGE gap in technology level like swords vs firearms.
Not to mention that droidekas, for example, are listed as 1/8 the price of a regular clone trooper and easily superior to one.
The Separatists would win if two conditions remain true:
- They manage to remain unified.
- They want to keep fighting.
More likely is that they decide to negotiate an end to the war.
By the end of the war most veteran clones knew how to kill many times their number in droids swiftly and efficiently (shooting the B1s' limb joints, ion weapons etc). Against anything other than a droideka (which still have their weaknesses, mind you) I'd give it to an experienced clone squad any day.
Yeah, that's also supposed to be the reason the Empire pretty much fell apart the moment he died. He never gave a fuck about what would happen after his death, so he never set up a clear procedure for succeeding him (and in fact did pretty much the opposite by constantly playing his underlings against each other). So when he dies, every asshole with a star destroyer declares himself the new emperor and they all duke it out until the whole Empire implodes. Didn't help that most of the good candidates to replace him (like Vader and the grand admiral of the imperial navy) also died during the battle of Endor.
Luckily there are many times the number of droids as their are clone troopers, and the droids never fatigue, never get tired, never have their performance slip. In a war of attrition the clones can't win.
Like I said, in the grand scheme of history, numbers almost always win over superior training, barring a complete difference in technological tiers.
I just YouTubed the battle on Utapau in EpIII and when the clones engage a group of B1s and a couple crab droids. They lose a dozen troopers in the two seconds of fighting we are show before the camera cuts away. That was near the end of the war. The GAR ended up winning that battle because they ambushed a small force trying to lay low but it still looks like the clones took high casualties. They were basically trading 1 for 1.
>never have their performance slip
Would anyone notice, since the B1s' circuitry and programming were essentially made by the lowest bidder?
This. Most of the time we see droids being wrecked in large numbers, it's Jedi who are doing it, not the clone troopers. Unfortunately there aren't enough Jedi to turn the tide of a war unless they resort to assassination tactics and go after CIS leadership figures... and even then it's hard for the CIS to fuck it up since the only stratedgy they need is ZOMG ZERG RUSH. It's not like they're relying on complex political plays or brilliant generals to win.
Don't forget that the CIS has those anti-biological bombs. I can imagine what carnage that does in the battlefield
>unless they resort to assassination tactics and go after CIS leadership figure
They were trying to do that the whole war. Republic Intelligence didn't do shit. They only succeeded because the commander of the CIS literally handed them the information.
Civil War would happen.
A lot of nations who supported Jedi before gonna withdraw. Those who already were dissatisfied will try to form a new block. Separatists will continue to fuck over everything. Hutts will probably also try to throw their support behind nations closer to Huttspace to help them create a new galactic federation or something with more lax laws.
So at least a five way free for all.
Drones are also easier to repair. If you a clone is killed you need to replace him outright. If a drone is shot in the chest you need only replace the parts that were damaged.
I think it is cheaper to just build a new battledroid than to just repair one.
This and the fact that Jedi themselves aren't really "assassins". Like, they targetd CIS leadership, but stealth and cold-blooded killings aren't the Jedi way. They have to be all noble and "proper" about it, giving their enemies multiple chances to surrender or trying to capture them to face court, compromising the success of the entire mission by trying to achieve these sorts of outcomes as opposed to just going for the clean kill.
No they don't.
Maybe. But droids still take their own dead after battle which allows them to save on materials.
>lightside of the force is stronger than the dark.
>Three of those jedi are killed within a minute.
>Never mind soon after the Sith go on and holocaust the jedi
Who started the lightside is stronger than the Darkside trend?
Did Obiwan ever ask for Grievous's surrender? I think he just iced the guy. That was a pretty shitty assassination attempt though. If Grievous hadn't called off his droids Kenobi would have been shot to pieces.
>Who started the lightside is stronger than the Darkside trend?
Literally Jedi propaganda. We only hear it from them.
Name one CIS leader the Jedi killed without making it into a huge sloppy action sequence. The Jedi are not assassins. Even when they're trying to be, they don't have the skills to pull it off.
Yoda and word-of-god from George Lucas states that the Light Side is stronger than the Dark Side. In the novelizations of the first movies, it was also stated that the Light Side is the "natural" state of the Force and that the Dark Side is a corruption. Luke literally describes the force as "crying in pain" when dark side users twist it to create force lightning. To "return balance to force" means to eliminate the Dark Side completely, not to achieve balance between the two.
That being said, the Jedi Code itself is corrupted. The Jedi use the Light Side, but the way in which they use it leads to them acting in a very arrogant and pretentious way that's keeping them from a deeper TRUE understanding of the Light Side.
It has to be pointed out though that the whole Force duality thing isn't some sort of objective take on it but one of many philosophies, at least according to some latter materials, some canonized.
It's not even propaganda so much as the Jedi legitimately believing this with no proof, because they're scared of the alternative. Their very reaction the dark side existing is not to try to understand it or see if it can be used constructively or responsibily, but to go "NOPE! IT'S BAD AND WRONG AND DON'T USE IT BECAUSE OUR WAY IS BETTER!"
Not to bring /pol/ into this, but in a way it's almost very reminiscent to certain "abstinence only" stances on sex. Yes, sex is a dangerous thing tied in with all sorts of powerful emotions, but trying to deny it's existence completely only makes it's temptation that much stronger. A running theme in Star Wars itself, in favor of compromise or moderation, is how often love ends up saving people, instead of damning them, despite love being a powerful emotion the likes of which Jedi are taught needs to be denied or feared, rather than dealt with in a healthy way. All the repression is why Luke's love for Padme stewed into fear and further stewed into hate and anger. Because nowhere along the way was Luke taught to deal with it or cope in a healthy way.
>Replace Luke with Annakin, holy fuck that typo.
>It's not even propaganda so much as the Jedi legitimately believing this with no proof, because they're scared of the alternative. Their very reaction the dark side existing is not to try to understand it or see if it can be used constructively or responsibily
Depends what materials you consider canon "enough" there were groups and philosophies in some of the frenchis emedia which considered this, including so-called Grey Jedi
With the republic senate in chaos after ol sheev's ousting the separatists would still have had a victory condition met, independence, since the Senate, not the Republic as a whole, would not have lost the will to fight beyond that point.
>Did Obiwan ever ask for Grievous's surrender?
No, he said "Hello there."
I don't think the Jedi really had much intrest in running the government, but they might have had the problems real world militaries have had after deposing corrupt governments in that when the people who end up in charge after the elections start to fuck up they feel the need to step in again. No civil war, but their would be several decades of off and on military control untill they find a vaguely functional government. Much like Egypt.
Yoda tells Luke that the Darkside is not more powerful, he doesn't say it's less either. I imagine the force user has the same power if they are Darkside or not, but may realize their ultimate power in a faster and more crude manner with the dark side.
this is mentioned in an episode of rebels
kalani the tactical droid says that the endless droids had a "90% chance of victory" and was confused by the republic victory
it was slightly implied that the droid could have been right, since rex only beat kalani in the present because their machinery was faulty
He calculated the odds at 76.4/23.6 in favour of the Seperatists. It's just one independent droid's calculations though.
>Turns out the Republic has no laws against a Sith being Chancellor.
>killing the leader of your nation because he belongs to a different religion from you.
Why would they? The average Republic citizen is unlikely to even know the difference between a Sith and a Jedi... or anything about them except that they both use laser-swords.
Hell, even when the Empire took over, some of their top officers openly mocked Vader's mentions of the force as a dead religion, like it was some fanciful superstition. (The changed when they ended up on the oxygen-deprived end of a force-choke, but that's not the point since that will never happen for 99.9% of the people living in the galaxy, many of whom will probably go their whole lives without ever seeing either a jedi or sith in person.)
>quints
>witnessed
if you read..i think it's the quote "official novel" Mace outright tells obi that he is the Only Man Who Can Kill Grevious. Thanks entirely to obi's supposed mastery of the basic defensive lightsaber form. Grevious could ramp up to speeds a jedi with a less complete defence simply couldn't keep up with- at the cost of any real technique, he was simply wailing on people at that point.
so if you believe one particular book, you could argue that getting shot apart was unlikely
>killing the leader of your nation because he secretly orchestrated a war against your country
Seems fair desu.
But they wanted to arrest Thessenate, not kill him. Also the official reason for that was his treason not him being a heretic.
Being really good at lightsaber defense can't save someone from being shot from 360 degrees simultaneously. There were also moments in the duel where his lightsaber was bound and he was defenseless against other attacks.
What I want to know is how did the clones go from effective badass troopers to the inaccurate shitty stormtroopers from the original trilogy?
Stormtroopers aren't clones.
Why didn't Jedi just force crush Grievous?
This
Also plot armor
>Movie jedi are useless unless they're fighting robots with the programming of Chuck E. Cheese animatronics.
>Meanwhile the guy who could pull battle cruisers out of the sky with his rage may be cannon due to conflicting statements from the company who now owns the franchise.
11/10, Disney. God-tier trolling.
Jedi in the movies don't really use the force for anything except enhancing their own physical abilities... and force push. Grievous's body was designed to take impacts from force pushes, although the effectiveness of this seems to vary depending on media. Sometimes his feet can lock him down to the ground and literally let him tank the hit, other times he gets ragdoll'd.
Greivous's fighting style was stated to be so aggressive and psychologically detrimental to his opponents that many Jedi literally could not find the time or calmness of mind to use force powers while fighting him.
Mace Windu did. That's why coughs.
Starkiller (Galen Marek) isn't canon, not even remotely. I have no idea where you're pulling that idea that he may be canon from.
Starkiller Base is just a reference to Annikin Starkiller, one of the characters from an earlier draft of The Star Wars.
Is that treason, then?
He's probably referring to the Rebel Insignia, which Starkiller is said to be the source of or had a hand in making. And the fact that the insignia itself was stated to be canon by Disney.
However, it is based off a Corosian Phoenix, a bird in the star wars galaxy, meaning anyone could have come up with it, due to having such a mundane origin.
I'd rather Edgeslayer not be canon. Dragging a star destroyer out of high orbit was nothing wort of obscene. The only condition I'd accept personally is if he used full-blown sith magic BS
His style is heavily influenced by the man who was highly proficient in a form indented to fight other lightsaber users. Plus he was unconventional as all fuck and yeah, built to intimidate. Even a jedi's going to have a hard time fighting off 4 blades at once and- if you want to believe the old cartoon- a cyborg nigger who can and will flip all over the place with his hand-feet
Fair enough.
Droidekas are that cheap? How the CIS lose again?
Did you not read the thread or watch the movies? Their leader betrayed them.
An ion grenade is cheaper still, and just being less expensive then several years of growing and indoctrination does not make one affordable. Droidekas where resistant to blaster fire and to a very limited extent, lightsabers. Their shielding was too difficult to simply burn through and their rate of fire could eventually wear down jedi.
Ask yourself why roger-roger models and their burly cousins where the most common models even when droidekas where superiour
All the republic needed as a sniper with an ion rifle standing by to shoot General Wheezous in the back when distracted by FOOLISH JEDI!
Exactly, there's nothing remotely inferred about the Marek family, let alone Starkiller himself, in canon.
I'ts more that the clones are that ridiculously expensive. The very first episode of TCW showed that the droids outnumbered the clones 100:1.
And also that Palpatine, as the mastermind of the war and the leader of both sides, determined the CIS would lose before the war even began.
Grenades in Star Wars aren't that effective, and ion grenades weren't canonical (excluding Legends material, but even then they basically only appeared in games with one mention from a novel) until Star Wars Battlefront (2015). The Onderon arc in TCW showed that the easiest way to drop droidekas was to slow-roll a grenade so it rolled through their shields.
He wasn't even the first Starkiller in a video game.
And then there's the possiblity that Sheev may have a dead man's switch that causes the clones to execute Orders 66, 72 kill senators and 95Kill planetary leaders. And the CIS droids to do the same on their end
It seems like a Sheev thing to do..
I don't know where you're getting those contingency orders, because they aren't among the ones that were described - the only ones we know about in Legends are 4, 5, 37, 65, and 66.
Hell, in canon, we don't even know if the Contingency orders are even a thing, since Order 66 was a secret.
In a NJO novel Luke and Mara Jade discovered Palpatine planned to turn off the air filtration for all of Coruscant in the event of a siege. That man has/had no morals holding him back.
Likely but the Clone Wars tv show had revealed a decent number of separatists wanted a peace deal, and Count Dooku managed to stop the process (forgot how) but that showed that the CIS was becoming tired of war.
Actually, the Medstar books (lol Legends now though) note that fixing clones is really easy, because they're all the same "plumbing" on the inside and rapid-cloned spare organs aren't hard to get a hold of. So fixing a clone up and sending him back is what they do if they can, it's much faster than getting a new one.
Yoda never says the light is stronger. Just that the dark side isn't stronger than the light. Subtle difference.
>Count Dooku managed to stop the process (forgot how)
He had the ones championing peace murdered.
The Head of State is not be above the law. Palpatine committed treason to grab power. The Jedi are trusted to maintain order an justice in the Republic. They had a firsthand account of his crimes, so it was appropriate to arrest him pending charges. I am sure that had they been able to carry out a thorough and unimpeded investigation, they would have proven his obvious villainy beyond doubt.
They didn't actually know he did that though
>they know the Sith backed the Trade Federation's seizure of Naboo
>the rule of two is well known
>a Sith apprentice was killed by Obi-Wan
>therefore if Palpatine is a Sith he must be the master
>therefore Palpatine is guilty of treason
They actually did. They knew from before the war started (AotC) that the Republic was under the control of a Sith Lord.
They then found out later in the war that the OTHER Sith Lord was Dooku (TCW Season 6, "The Lost One"). Meaning that they know at this point that the Sith control both sides of the war.
Then Anakin is told by Palpatine that he's a Sith, and Anakin then reports to the Jedi that Palpatine is the other Sith they've been looking for.
>word-of-god from George Lucas
George Lucas barely made Star Wars. His word means as much as anyone else's. He directed the prequels and episode 4 - that's it.
Fuck him and his bullshit view of the Force in Balance.
He may not have directed 5/6, but he was definitely heavily involved in story direction and production.
And Star Wars was his baby. The others were allowed to play in the playground that he created, but Star Wars was and is George Lucas' creation - the idea that his words don't carry any more weight than anyone else's when it comes to Star Wars - specifically, the Star Wars material that he was involved in - is fucking laughable and I'm betting you're from /tv/.
>I'm betting you're from /tv/
What the fuck does that mean? Do you think he was on /tv/ and then somebody linked this Star Wars thread?
The way that he's all "hurr durr George Lucas sucks and his word means nothing." That's a /tv/ism if I've ever seen one.
So you're saying that in addition to Veeky Forums he also likely browses /tv/? How would that make him
>from /tv/
?
>History has shown time and time again that attrition and higher troop numbers almost always beats out superior training and equipment in the end.
When has "history shown this"?
Not to mention that to know what a "/tv/ism" even is, HE'D have to have been to /tv/ also, thus making him from /tv/ as well.
ww2, ww1
The way he immediately came in and shat on George with zero responses to the rest of the thread.
I'll admit I've browsed a bit in the past, enough to notice it's pretty much /b/ but with less porn.
It's an anonymous board, he could have been here from the start and you wouldn't know.
>The way he immediately came in and shat on George with zero responses to the rest of the thread.
George is a talentless hack. I didn't need to visit /tv/ (I don't) to form that opinion.
But the losing powers in both World wars had generally inferior training and technology.
Tell that to the german's incredible k/d ratios. Especially in tanks.
>muh k/d
War isn't like call of duty. And of course the German K/D ratio in WW1 was nothing special. But assuming you're only talking about WW2, those "K/D" ratios leave out the enormous numbers of losses the Germans sustained in 1944-45 (11 million captured!) We will of course be ignoring their considerably disparity of losses in the air, even though the jet fighter was one of their few true technological advantages. We will ignore their horse drawn logistics, in contrast to the far more mechanized rear that the Western allies had. We will completely ignore the effect of surprise and that first big burst of casualties in Barbarossa, or the wholesale murder of PoWs that the Germans indulged in.
They got that "K/d" ratio, not by better tech or training, but by surprise and brutality.
>they didn't have advanced technology at all!
>Now, let's go back to our battle plan that requires four of our tanks, minimum, to take out a single one of theirs, with 3/4 losses
>>they didn't have advanced technology at all!
They had rockets, which were pretty useless, and jets, which managed a roughly 1:3 in that "all important" K/D ratio that you keep harping upon.
Meanwhile, they were behind in things like radar, communications, halftracks, naval engines, artillery, and yes, tanks for most of the war.
>Now, let's go back to our battle plan that requires four of our tanks, minimum, to take out a single one of theirs, with 3/4 losses
What the FUCK are you talking about? Oh, is this a "shermans are useless" meme? Pic related is from this book.
amazon.com
If trump came out as a member of isis you think he would have much legetemazy as president?
>rockets
>useless
Didn't they cause an incredible period of fear and inability to counterattack in any meaningful way for the british?
Also, it's kind of hilarious you call jets anything but more advanced, given they are literally all we do nowadays.
Superior Russian numbers in WW1 got fucking rekt so bad their country collapsed and overthrew their leader. In WW2 the average Russian performance suffered more from shitty tactical command structure than from the quality of their equipment or soldiers, meanwhile German equipment was nowhere near as amazing people people make it out to be, and on top of that they struggled with terrible production choices and logistics choices, the German army for instance having too great a say in the specs of produced tanks, meaning that on average every sixth Tiger tank was different from the last one, thus burdening production needlessly. The Germans had access to a lot more steel than the Soviets, but failed to keep up production due to an ineffective production line, rather than their actual choice of tanks. On top of this, Germans had a habbit of outfitting newly rasied units and sending them off to war before replacing losses within veteran units, so veteran tank regiments sometimes had to share 3-5 tanks in total, while a completely green regient rolled out and quickly lost 20 or their 35 brand new tanks on their first engagement. American and Russian production on the otherhand was governed by number crunchers who actually understood basic concepts behind large scale production and the scale of the conflict they had to win.
The reason the Germans did as well as they did was sick ass tactical command structure and rather than nazi science and Krupp stahl, their technological superiority is a myth, and eventually everyone else caught up to their tactics. It was more quantity vs less quantity rather than quantity vs quality.
Also, in Israel vs fucking everyone around them, superior numbers got fucking blasted on several occasions, same thing during Desert Storm.
Fuck off. That's just going to trigger political shitposting and you damn well know it.
>Also, in Israel vs fucking everyone around them, superior numbers got fucking blasted on several occasions, same thing during Desert Storm.
That's more a case of Arabs not being able to into conventional modern warfare.
>trying to claim the quagmires of the middle east as anything but a loss
I mean, if you are trying to claim russia lost despite being on the winning side, you sort of also have to claim these as a loss too.
>Didn't they cause an incredible period of fear and inability to counterattack in any meaningful way for the british?
The V2 rocket was fairly useless. It was expensive and inaccurate, and it would've been better to spend those resources on actual planes.
>Didn't they cause an incredible period of fear and inability to counterattack in any meaningful way for the british?
And what did that fear get them? It didn't slow down the allied advance, it didn't stop them from pulverizing German factories and cities with their own, actually effective, radar guided 4 engined bombers (something the Germans never figured out; by the way, that was a pretty meaningful counterattack in the strategic bombing sense), and caused far less damage than the good old fashioned blitz of 1940?
>Also, it's kind of hilarious you call jets anything but more advanced, given they are literally all we do nowadays.
I'm not saying they weren't advanced. I'm saying that for all their "advanced"-ness, they were actually pretty useless. The Germans got enormously more out of the FW-190 than they did with things like the Me-262 or the TA-152, in large part because that wasn't a prototype that was falling apart at the seams being rushed into battle when they didn't have training facilities set up to teach pilots how to use their new super-fast jet and lacked fuel to get the training flights going.
Meanwhile, the things that the Allies were more advanced in generally get overlooked. The Jeep isn't sexy compared to a fighter jet, but actually making sure munitions and food and fuel get from the railhead to wherever your troops are is damn important. Making sure you can actually build a strategic bomber that won't randomly catch on fire and can deliver the sort of tonnage you need to smash up cities is way better than rockets. And do we even need to go into the atomic bomb program? Yes, the Germans had some technological tricks up their sleeves, but to say they were categorically more advanced than the Allies is stupid.
you know, when put this way, the idea of Sidious' death at the Battle of Endor basically ending the Empire really does make a bit more sense than the Empire continuing to linger on as a legitimate force.
A question I've always played around with in my head was simply "what if Anakin opted not to help Jedi or Sidious and just took Padme and fucked off to be a family man?"