How do you defeat the Mongols or equivalent?

How do you defeat the Mongols or equivalent?

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periklisdeligiannis.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/fighting-tactics-of-the-middle-byzantine-armies-against-slavs-eurasian-steppe-peoples-part-i/
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2017/02/qi-ji-guangs-che-ying-p1.html
deremilitari.org/2014/06/the-art-of-war-under-chinggis-qahan-genghis-khan/
deremilitari.org/2014/05/the-mongol-siege-of-xiangyang-and-fan-cheng-and-the-song-military/
deremilitari.org/2014/07/the-mongols-in-the-west/
hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/CatapultTypes.html
hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/Catapults.html
l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/140820.html
l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/202835.html
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Lighter, faster horse archers and even more nomadic life-style.

Better bows. We had horse archer nomads since the fucking scythians, but if you can outrange them, you can create infantry squares with archers safely in the middle picking them off.

The problem with mongols was that they had amazing recurve bows that outranged contemporary bows by about 100 yards on top of a culture that created perfect horsemen and archers, that could shoot someone through the throat on a watch tower 100s of meters away. So... Get you some British or Italian mercenaries, I guess.

Spam infantry archers, they will shoot double the arrows.

the biggest weakness of horse archers is that they need a lot of space to work an maneuver in

they are also crap at charging uphill, although this is shared with all cavalry

Ask the vietnamese.

Poison barbs hidden up Finnish Vaginas

Walls and holes?

The mongols seemed to be tremendously good at sieges for some reason. Ask all of mainland China, Baghdad and Eastern Europe.

Just be careful of catapult when you spam archer. They got the best unit in the game before the patch.

Iron Golems. Construct as many as you can and charge them all with hunting down and killing the mongols. The mongols will find their famous arrows breaking uselessly upon the metallic skins of the golems, and will flee. They will outpace them... initially.

But the golems do not eat, tire or deviate. The golems will follow the mongols, chasing them as relentlessly as death itself, and when they catch them, they will rip them apart. The steppes shall run red with blood, until not a man, woman or child remains alive, and the iron fiends take root, waiting for new orders.

typhoons

they used muslim siege engineers when they came across castles
chinese forts successfully held them off until they brought in experts

And that changes exactly what? What's your advice? "Don't let mongols bribe/kidnap experts"?

GUNS, LOTS OF GUNS

But how did they get them before they ransacked baghdad or was that a fluke?

This man speaks the truth.

Engage on favourable terms
Examples: breaking of sieges, river crossings, returning from raids (when they are burdened with spoils and slaves), direct strikes at their settlements (well, camps) - using rivers to get close, or when weather allows (that is: preferably at winter)
Alternatively, strategic retreats. Horses need provisions, after all. Fun fact: no one knows to this day just how mongols managed to wage winter campaign of the conquest of Rus - some believe that history is fake altogether because of the logistics that must have been involved

And, finally, battlefield defences

they apparently used chinese artillery and engineers in addition to their regular forces

they did not fight in the classic mongol way, but built palisades and dug ditches

it was also their third time, so they had practice

Bird riders?
Men and horses need food. Fast moving army means strained supply lines.

Infighting among horde's nobles can and should be exploited. Form aliances, don't be greedy on bribes, divide and conquer.

Convert them to your faith.

There are many ways.

>no one knows to this day just how mongols managed to wage winter campaign of the conquest of Rus
Do you know how damn cold are Mongolian winters?

By using actual tactics in combat, rather than charging them blindly.

Trying to win the competition with them in better light cavalry/archers is just retarded and easiest way to get smacked.

You invite them to immigrate in your land, and then you slowly assimilate and mix them with your population them until they cease to be mongols.

>Enemy can't harm you
>B-but what does it change
Light archer cavalry is utterly useless for anything else than harrassing disorganised troops that took the bait for enemy "routing" from the battlefield.
If you can't even besiege a fort, you can't do shit to your enemy. And no, setting up a camp around fort doesn't count, because you can easily be take into pincers from both fort's sally and reinforcements from the outside.

> Infighting among horde's nobles can and should be exploited. Form aliances, don't be greedy on bribes, divide and conquer.
That goes both ways, though - and mongols were adept in dividing as well
People are doubting speed of the mongolian army movement, and how they managed to bring enough food with them

came here to post this

>and how they managed to bring enough food with them
They were fighting just at the edge of their land you know.

Quick check on map gives me around 400 km for the depth of their incursion. Also - edge of their land is kind of not appropriate description of far-flung campaigns of conquest. They didn't live at the area before, did they?

>Men and horses need food. Fast moving army means strained supply lines.
Mongols usually bring everything with them and have no supply line. They can literally live off goat milk, and the goats go with them.

Hire mongols to kill the mongols.

Let me tell you how it worked. Mongols come and knock on the door. You open up, they ask if you are fine with being the Great Khan's subject. If you say yes, they move on to the next door, and you must pay taxes to them, feed their horses, etc. Your lands are their lands now too.

Lies.

Do the horses live on goat milk as well?
I mean: humans are actually more durable then horses, and in any food shortage case, horses will die first.
That Mongols operated as a mounted army that lived off unfamiliar lands (where, for example, just letting horses graze may kill them!) is nothing short of a miracle.

Summon a typhoon

Dispalled by their shamans, too bad

West nile virus

>mongols were adept in dividing as well
Hahahahahahahahaha... no

Unless by "dividing" you mean doing an absolute overkill on people who didn't surrender.

>I don't understand logistics: The Post
Also, they weren't all-mounted army. Not even half of them.

They actually just overfed their horses so they got fat and could survive without eating longer.

Wrong again
They have pitted princes of Rus against each other after conquering them, preventing forging of alliances against their rule.
Like, for example, Prince Daniil of Galich was forced to participate in punitive expedition on Poland, his would-be ally

>Enemy can't harm you
Except by your own admission they can.

Lots of field artillery like Scorpios can help.

Except Ghenghis Khan *did* figure out how to siege, in fact he did it so effectively that at the end of his campaigning life it was like clockwork.

He learned much from his captured intellectuals from all over the world. THat's why his empire had roadstations, postage, paper money, tribute flowing in from everywhere, vassals, and all the wealth of all the lands in and around present-day Mongolia, from Siberia to India, from the south China sea to the eastern borders of present-day Europe.

>They have pitted princes of Rus against each other after conquering them
A Kievan prince was a foreigner to a Smolensk prince and to a Pskovite prince. There were no united Russian nation back then. And waging wars is a vassal's duty, nothing wrong with that too.

Kill the Khan, watch the horde fracture.

Which is why they managed to conquer Japan so easily.

Oh wait the other thing.

War carts, bring your fort with you. Artillery, outfire and outrange them, be it with hand trebuchets, rockets, scorpios or cannons. Remember that a bow's maximum range seldom hurts its targets. Be pacient, don't get baited. Burn pastures. Killing one actual mongol is worth more than ten vassal levies.

periklisdeligiannis.wordpress.com/2015/06/21/fighting-tactics-of-the-middle-byzantine-armies-against-slavs-eurasian-steppe-peoples-part-i/

greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com.br/2017/02/qi-ji-guangs-che-ying-p1.html

deremilitari.org/2014/06/the-art-of-war-under-chinggis-qahan-genghis-khan/

deremilitari.org/2014/05/the-mongol-siege-of-xiangyang-and-fan-cheng-and-the-song-military/

deremilitari.org/2014/07/the-mongols-in-the-west/

hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/CatapultTypes.html

hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/Catapults.html

l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/140820.html

l-clausewitz.livejournal.com/202835.html

Do you mean early conquest mongols of Ghengis's early life? Bribe rivals, infantry squares/archers/light cavalry or just wait them out.

Golden Horde or Yuan Dynasty mongols? You're really fucked if you resist because they really were min maxing assholes. Its honestly better to just pay tribute and they usually just leave you alone. That is unless you were one continent away from their home base.

The Hungarians actually had some success using tons of castles and the vast distances meant the mongols could never muster a real conquest force. Well more accurately, they had other shit to do than care about Europe at the time.

Machine guns

>Battlefield siege weapons

Is this a joke? Real life isnt age of empires and your ancestors were not retards. The mongols are not going to charge straight into pike walls or engage on conditions favourable to the defender.

Battlefield artillery is a meme until reliable gunpowder. Also if they could have gotten guns, better bows or light cavalry they would have. Very few cultures had access to native horse archer cavalry in significant numbers.

Mobility's cool, but there's more things in life
Like hiding in your cart
Shooting in a line
At the catholics
That don't get bread and wine

Stay noided user.

>Hey Alexander, I'm sorry but I can't allow you to use these mangonels to defend against the Scythians while we cross this river, because battlefield artillery is a fucking JOKE
>Hephaeston- you cocksucker- this is why nobody will ever believe you're the greatest general to ever live

Foot archers, fast light cavalry, and heavy cavalry.

Mongolian horses were pretty slow for horses, but they were a fairly low maintenance breed. Don't try to chase them down for 2 weeks like some noteworthy idiots did and they won't be able to use that to their advantage.

There isn't one magic thing that will make you beat them. Use a combination of:
Fight in jungles, marshes, or mountains to negate the advantages of horses. Use better equipment (faster horse breeds, better ranged weapons, plate armor...). Use better intelligence and bait to force them into choke points and then ambush them.
Kill the leader in its camp (assassins).
Cause political tensions.
Pay traitors.
Bait them with a trap city. Poison wine supplies and wells, hide troops in hidden tunnels under the city. Once the mongols are pillaging the city and are drunk, attack. Or lock them in the city and set fire to it while they're inside.
Use scorched earth tactics as you fall back to cut down their supplies.

By moving to France.

If we are going the full fantasy route then why not use magic to turn them into chickens? Chickens are pretty much harmless and now you also got your army a food supply that will last for a fair while.

>Lies
True, they also nourished themselves by drinking a concotion made out of mixing blood and milk from their horses. Their horses were meanwhile used to living of off the scarcities of the mongolian steppe which meant that they weren't exactly picky eaters.

Anyone who has ever played Medieval 2: Total war knows there is only one way to defeat the steppe peoples.

Assassination.

Even in real life the whole Mongol invasion was called off after Genghis Khan died. In TW I would play Byzantines and get destroyed every time the Mongols and Timurids came around. I would lose 2-3 full armies against one of theirs. However, once I began spamming high-level assassins against their generals they were never again a threat.

This makes me want to play a super defensive Venice focused on diplomats and assassination...

I thought it was the other way around. Each man would ride with 2-3 horses to always have a fresh one to bear him, as well as to make their army seem larger.

Of course, I know they had dismounted archers and spearmen and artillerymen during sieges, but many of them had multiple horses on the march

The Mongol's greatest weapon was not the horse or the bow, but the ingenious strategic and tactical geniuses of her commanders. Genghis Khan, and the men he chose to lead his armies, were geniuses to the point they inflated the Mongolian army tenfold with quick manouvering of terrain. They also employed tactics not used until World War 2. These guys don't just charge and storm the enemy, they do hit and run tactics, feints, and encirclement and asymetrical warfare unlike any the medieval world has ever seen. The Horse archer was just that icing on the cake that make these stratagem just that much more effective. Don't forget, horse archers existed for a long time, they waited a thousand years before conquering the world because until then nobody could unite and lead them effectively. I wouldn't be surprised if Genghis Khan is to be transported to today's era, he would be as successful now with our modern military as he was back then, if not more so.

So yeah, assassination is the only way to beat the Mongols at their heights. That, or dragons. Lots of dragons.

Forests, and hit and run tactics in said forests.

Surrender and let my superior culture assimilate them in just 3 generations.
100% effective as long as you have that superior culture.

t. Angela Merkel

>Culture that literally relies entirely on horses not all mounted.

Do people really think forests will do anything to stop the greatest minmaxers in history?

Mongol sorcerers, what now?

The cold isn't the question, it's feeding and watering their horses (and themselves) on the march.

All much easier to do at home, even in a god-forsaken winter.

You forget: be brutal. The Mongols themselves understood this, and so did other leaders like Vlad III. Your enemies should fear facing you. No cruelty is too great. Pain should be lingering, tremendous, and hideous.

>Quality post that actually cites its sources
>Zero responses
Typical.

There's not much to say to such an outlay of facts, and most are scattered throughout the thread, anyway.

Burning pastures is a rarely-mentioned one, though.

Surrender, then subsume them into your culture. Worked for China.

Spam castles and crossbowmen like the Hungarians

Edgelord ideology always works great until you cause people to get crueler than you in response.

> Burning pastures is a rarely-mentioned one, though
A bit of a trivia: burning of steppes was used as a defensive measure by... Crimean tatars against the Russian army. It worked several times, most notably against the ill-fated expedition of the Prince Golytsin, whose armt was hit so badly by logistic issues that it was barely able to go there and back, which led to ascension of Peter the Great to power

...

Be Hungarian

No, you're already dealing with a people who understood and weaponized fear. If you don't use it too, you're just setting aside a valuable tool for no reason.

foot archers

Excellent post user, not OP, but I'll look into this.

According to The Principles of Self-Defense of Jeff Cooper you should respond to an aggression fast, aggressively and violently.

Like the old Swiss did, kill all enemies, no quarter, no prisoners. Drown them in marshes and lakes!

Sit somewhere safe like remote island

This. If the mongols waited like 2 more centuries before attacking europe, they would've been slaughtered. Steppe peoples which traditionally were so dangerous because of mobility and missile weapons when western armies were built around infantry, suddenly had to deal with armies fielding massive amounts of guns. It didn't even matter if those guns were worse than bows at the time, you point them all in one direction and fire at once, that's a lot of lead in the air.

Mongolia was used to bitter winters, and the winter meant the lakes and rivers were frozen so they had more room.

Forests severely weaken their best advantage.

Parthian shot was designed to attack pursuing cavalry, not infantry, the idea that horse archers are a magical trump card against any other kind of troop is silly.

Heavy Infantry usually has good chances against cavalry, archer or not, Russia had only light levies and heavy cavalry for the bulk of their armies.

They didn't fight in forests you know

Also stuff like cannon. Even relatively primitive cannons both do some amount of damage, and upset horses fairly badly. Certainly ones not very used to cannons.

They caught on at least partially for that reason in Russia and other parts of eastern europe purely for the "fuck your cavalry" aspect.

And then people and their horses sort of got over it and even trained them to deal with it, but then the cannon got relatively more dangerous, etc.

But yeah, I think being able to just put that much lead in the air and also have a formation that one way or the other, could receive a charge reasonably well made a big difference. Look at how the Russian Empire spread all the way to the Pacific and generally roundly assfucked the Steppe peoples in their way, on average, anyway. I mean, it was harder at first, and they still had problems or losses, but the general trend was "haha, that's cute. You have a horse and a bow. Get fucked.".

Europe back then was like 90% forest, there was little ground for horses to graze and it formed a natural barrier to the east.

Keep in mind that for centuries Russia was contained in territory due to steppe peoples. Once they got guns and started using the steppe peoples against each other, suddenly they made massive headway in only a single generation.

Prisoners are only for torturing for information and murdering in front of enemy hosts.

But what about the ransoms?

Merciless death to the Turk.

During the Siege of Kuja in Korea they boiled their prisoners alive within sight of the walls and out of bow range.

Then they methodically refined the human fat of their prisoners into explosives to blow holes in walls.

Don't fuck with the Mongols.

They also tied tree branches to the horses tails to drag across the dry ground. It kicked up a huge dust cloud that both screened their numbers from scouts and led enemies to believe they had an enormous horde on the way causing them to surrender in terror.

Checked

Longbows, pikemen and billhooks.
And perhaps something to spook the fuck out of horses.

You hire other nomads. Also castles

>War carts, bring your fort with you. Artillery, outfire and outrange them, be it with hand trebuchets, rockets, scorpios or cannons. Remember that a bow's maximum range seldom hurts its targets. Be pacient, don't get baited. Burn pastures. Killing one actual mongol is worth more than ten vassal levies.
You are the heroe we need!

All these tacticool responses. The answer is you convert them to Islam or whatever your civ religion is. Suddenly, they have no appetite to attack a fellow believer.

>Islam
>no appetite to attack a fellow believer.
Oh you sweet summer child!