I think what people miss about the Primaris Space Marines are that they're not an improvement on the Astartes, they're a return to form. Contemporary Astartes are much weaker than their ancestral counterparts, as all the geneseeds have broken down and shit.
Hope that makes the fluff more acceptable.
I agree.
KILL ALL MANLET MARINES.
Also I should have said "not ONLY an improvement". They are definitely an improvement in some places, but most of this is a return to form.
40k marines are better than 30k marines because they aren't mass produced scrubs with no training thrown straight into the crusade.
>Felix pondered how Calgar might feel about the primarch’s unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older Space Marines were numbered.
Even Guilliman agrees. Manlets are out, Primarines are the new hotness
Maybe in terms of combat experience, but objectively from a genetic standpoint, older marines are better.
WEW I'M SO GLAD MY MELANIN PRODUCED GENESEED ORGAN IS STILL FUNCTIONING, NOW THIS DARK SKIN WILL MAKE ME 265% MORE COMBAT EFFECTIVE THAN THOSE PALE RAVEN GUARD
Is that why Primaris are taller than 30k marines too? 30k and 40k marines had no difference in terms of physical strength or size. None of the geneseed organs important to combat like black carapace or increased muscles have been lost over time.
Even within the fluff, the Primaris Marines aren't much taller than regular Space Marines. The models != the fluff.
I like this a lot actually. It explains why the Primaris are still only about the same size as the new plastic Traitor Legion marines, because those guys are OG from the heresy while the manlet CSM are the more recent renegades and shit.
Well, Some Raven Guard actually had a functioning Mucranoid Gland in the Heresy. Those guys turned into the Carcharodons.
Though at the same time, Heresy marines are the same size as 40k marines since their legacy armors from the Heresy can still fit them fine, and the HH line produces Space Marines that are the same size as normal Marines.
It'd be a weird theory with all that in the way. I just accept the Primaris canon because fuck if it's not stupid enough already. Of course, the book release for it does show how grimdark it gets pretty much the instant after Primaris hit the scene. Likely there's going to be some new and interesting reactions with Chapters whose geneseed has a reputation for mutations and flaws, like the Blood Angels lineage in its entirety.
It's possible over the course of the last 10,000 years the "legacy" armors were resized multiple time to fit new (shorter) users.
Maybe the technology isn't right for resizing ceramic plates, but fuck it stupider shit exists in that universe.
Bah, headcanon is always a strange beast, but should never be considered on par with what's on paper.
I remember when I didn't know 40k lore that well that I had a theory that bolters were actually rivet guns that just happened to work with the STC patterned bolt ammunition, STC shit being modular and all. I had thought it'd make sense because of the name, but there's a big difference between a bolt and a rivet, and back then I just used them interchangeable because I didn't know any better. It made me wonder just what kind of chimeric equipment the Imperium might be using for purposes other than intended because that's all they have from the Dark Age to work with.
Might help explain why I was drawn to AdMech.
Isn't the Leman Russ an STC tractor with a bunch of guns strapped to it?
Not really, it's a tank in its own right. If that was canon at one time, it's legacy canon and probably not really considered "true" canon anymore.
The only things I can find or recall is that Arkham Land, among his many discoveries, found a tractor STC that works really well, and shares a few similarities with the Leman Russ like reliability and the ability to run on any combustible liquid fuel. But after that, they look nothing alike and share no chassis similarities.
Also, an old an obscure fluff blurb I can't seem to find anymore says the Baneblade tank is, in STC specifications, classified as a light tank, leading you to wonder what a medium or heavy tank from the Dark Age might look like.
It's a nice theory, that after the wonders of the lost Dark Age, mankind is actually fighting back the darkness with the leftover tools of those Dark Age humans rather than weapons proper. But ultimately this theory isn't supported by fluff. Well, maybe the AdMech, through ignorance or embarrassment, reclassify and repurpose these devices to be weapons and hide their true origins and purpose to preserve the morale of the Imperium, but that's so far still an unsubstantiated claim from a lore standpoint.
Except they aren't. The problem with the Legion marines is that they were impure from being spammed with little regard for quality. The reason why Guilliman implemented the Codex reform was to both improve the quality of marines and their training. This is why rules-wise modern marines from M41 are superior to CSM or Legionaires in the Horus Heresy with ATSKNF or Stubborn.
Is this from dark imperium?
Yep, eventual squatting of manlets are fluff now
Is there any art that shows Primaris and non-Primaris side-by-side? I assume that the only difference is in armor design and weaponry.
Is it even really 'squatting'? It's just adding a couple more organs to our already-ridiculous list.
I've decided to get into 40k as I adored the marines. My first squad of oldmarines arrives this week. This shit makes me sad :(
Kill the alien, the heretic, the manlet.
Suffer not the short to live.
t. GW employee
are manlets not simply mutants?
When will FW start making better Primaris sculpts to compete with GW's attempts to ruin their manlet market?
Imagine being manlet marine. For 300 years you have been fighting desperately for the existence of the Imperium of man. You saw your battle bro`s dying in ash, mud and melta bursts. You gave everything. Your loyalty, life and skills. And then, you are just replaced by chad marines. New heresy when?
The Beta Heresy is coming
I wonder with all this primaris replacing regular marines, hiw are they going to address all the named SM characters? They can't make them as Primaris because that's bullshit, are going to have nu-marines led by manlet chapter masters?
What about calgar, Dante, grimnar and grimaldus? Are they gonna be squatted too?
But ruleswise they suck
Normal Astartes can upgrade to Primaris just like a normal human can upgrade to Astartes as far as I know.
>caring about a units' rules
Maybe it's CSMs that are getting Squatted, maybe Robot Girlyman will become the new Horus, and the Primaris the new traitor legions.
The process for creating the 40k marines is and remains far more rigorous than primaris marines. This is partly because technology and geneseed degeneration but would unintentionally mean the people being recruited ought to be the absolute pinnacle of human drive and potential.
The Primaris ought to be a step below because they dont need to worry about mutations or geneseed rejection. But how much is the difference? Does it even matter?
In my head its like if we took a navy seal and a marine and turned them both into transhuman warriors.
The Primaris process can be used on already made marines to turn them into chadmarines.
>normal marines can upgrade to chadmarines anytime
A little too convenient.
But alas, this is GW we're talking about. The company that has no respect even for itself
The fact it means original legions like Space Wolves or Salamanders have actual successors means I can overlook much of the inconsistencies of plot.
I especially like that Cawl has plans for ALL legions. And I suspect he has another 50,000 marines from the traitor legions on ice and ready to go.
Actually Primaris Raven Guard don't have pale skin, all the missing organs from chapters like them were replaced/fixed. Primaris Imperial Fists can spit acid for instance unlike the old ones.
>IF veterans getting angry at the new Primaris kids chasing each other around their fortification hallways and getting acid spit on the walls
>implying that later marines weren't made more stable or were intentionally pruned of flaws
Think about it. Most chapters in the Imperium today are the end result of ten thousand years of constant genetic testing and a literal religious observance of the purity of their gene-seed, as well as with occasional tweaking each founding or so to try and increase effectiveness or remove flaws (such stuff leading unfortunately to the Cursed Founding).
Cawl has been working on this project for ten thousand years, yes, but he's probably been working from base Legion stock, unaltered since the Heresy. Can you really build a race car with the pieces of a Model T? Or even if you could, will it really be as good and ready for the world of today as the cars that have been developed over the decades since?
>but user everything was better in the past of 40k
That is true for most things, especially technology, but it's not true for things like genetics. Genetic purity and keeping with the human form is a concern, but there was never the stringent religious drive of preservation that affects technology and government, as well as far less 'secret keeping til ded' like what happens with Magoses who are the only ones left that remember this one plasma coil, because there is constant communication between Magos Biologis personnel and Apothecaries.
He even apparently has II and XI, which Gully is freaked out about.
They're going to get Codexes this edition, mark my words.
The lost legions? I doubt it, they'd need a whole bunch of fluff.
GW is looking for spaces in which to write new fluff where they don't have to adhere to old legacy shit.
One of the lost Legions will get a new Loyalist Codex that's all Primaris all the time, and the other one will be the new generic Chaos Undivided posterboys.
Don't you think that they 'don't count' in some way, though? Being Primaris marines that happen to share the same gene-seed, instead of really having any hallmarks of Salamander or Space Wolf culture?
How are Primaris Space Wolves supposed to work, anyhow? Their gene-flaws should be even worse, and they don't have the magic thingeemajigs the Space Wolves have to keep it down.
>where they don't have to adhere to old legacy shit.
Isn't that literally what Primaris are for.
Primaris Wulfen
Primaris digganobs
I know it gets said a lot but I would seriously drop 40k and never buy anything again. Fucking with all of the lore as of late has completely soured me on 8th despite being excited for the mechanics. I know they have changed stuff over the editions but it seems mid 7th into 8th has seen sweating changes to the setting and removed a lot of things I liked and enjoyed. The setting has lost a lot of what drew me in and they continue to change it for the worse in my opinion.
I guess I'll just continue with my old hybrid rules and playing with friends. At least I get to keep Dark Heresy and the like.
>How are Primaris Space Wolves supposed to work, anyhow?
I suspect they like to fight more than normal marines and have a tendency to be hairy but not like actual wolves.
You know, I have to wonder. Caul had 10,000 years to create Primaris Space Marines, right?
Is the process in fact easily replicable? Because if not, if Caul's the only guy who can do it, what happens when he runs out?
*sweeping changes
Christ I need to sleep.
The whole point of the Indomitus Crusade is that Guilliman is taking the tech and methods to make Primaris marines to all the other Chapters so they can do it themselves.
Cawl developed the process, that doesn't mean no one else can copy it now that it's completed.
There seem to be a lot of logistical problems with that one. I'm not even sure why Guilliman needs Spacier Marines: It's not like the Imperium has ever been lacking in military might. All he really needs to do is to clean house.
The Imperium has slowly been crumbling and decaying and getting beaten back for ten thousand years. It's far too big to just "clean house". No one guy, not even a Primarch specializing in statesmanship, can fix the inconceivably monolithic vastness of the Imperium that easily. Not to mention fucking half of it just went "off the grid" from the Cicatrix Maledictum. He needs forces he can rely upon to hold their own.
He doesn't. GW however wants to resell marine players their armies all over again so they made up a half assed fluff reason for it.
Hell, in setting the situation would be improved if he just focused on getting rid of a lot of the restrictions he himself put in place that has been hamstringing the IG and Navy for 10,000 years instead of focusing on marines considering the Astra Militarum does 90% of the fighting in the galaxy through raw logistics alone.
We're gonna need larger Primaris to combat this diggeresy.
>GW however wants to resell marine players their armies all over again so they made up a half assed fluff reason for it.
I wish this were true. The current plastic devastators, assault marines, and tacticals are ALREADY GW trying to resell marine players the same fucking marines. They didn't even make any lore for it, they just did it.
They could have easily made Primaris just new power armor and bolters and plasma guns for regular squads, or they could have just made old kits in truescale.
It is true.
The only reason they went with something different and added fluff is so marine players didn't just shrug and go "I have my army". So they added new models, gave them better stats, cooler toys, and fluff that makes them marines+.
Have you not seen the marinelet shitposting everywhere? I wouldn't be suprised if half of it are blackshirts.
The point is they will eventually get the full set going either by literally just making primaris equivalents or restructuring SM entirely.
>The only reason they went with something different and added fluff is so marine players didn't just shrug and go "I have my army".
So why didn't marine players do that with the current boxes? The vast majority of marine models are from the 3E to 5E generation. You're not going to tell me GW sold this many 6E tactical/assault/devastator boxes just because people were trying to get the grav gun bits.
Same with BaC and BoP. People already have marines, more marines than anyone could possibly need, but people will buy marines if they are nicer looking, newer, or look different. It doesn't matter if he had a gorillion marines already, people still bought tons of BaC and BoP marines.
Can't wait for the next big civil war to happen when Admiral Asshat decides to take his sector fleet and all the Guard regiments with them and tries to carve out his own empire.
>9th Edition.
>in order to survive, The northern half of Ultima Segmentum and Segmentum Obscurus form the Northern Imperium.
>after centuries of being cut off from the Imperium by the Cicatrix Maledictum and having to hold their own against the archenemy, xenos and worse, the Northern Imperium is reluctant to return to the fold as they've proven that they can stand on their own without the meddling of the High Lords of Terra.
>Is Gulliman a bad enough dude to reunite the fractured halves of The Imperium?
He's not just freaked that Cawl has them, Rowboat would have known the gene-stocks existed. They also explicitly say that the fault of those two was with the Primarchs, and not with the Legions.
What freaks Robby G out is that he doesn't trust Cawl to NOT start making Primaris from that stock.
>Hell, in setting the situation would be improved if he just focused on getting rid of a lot of the restrictions he himself put in place that has been hamstringing the IG and Navy for 10,000 years
Right now he just ignores the Codex if he thinks it prudent. And anybody who disagrees he glares at until they shut up.
I get the feeling that he thinks the dogmatic adherence to the Codex has bit the Imperium in the ass too many times, so if he thinks he can get a better job done by ignoring it, he'll ignore it.
>tfw he finally bends and agrees to let Cawl make Primaris Lost Legion marines
>"here you go, ten thousand each"
>how the fuck did you get them that fa-WAITAMINUTE
>I get the feeling that he thinks the dogmatic adherence to the Codex has bit the Imperium in the ass too many times, so if he thinks he can get a better job done by ignoring it, he'll ignore it.
It's even simpler than that. He's just doing what he's always meant for people to do with the codex: use it when it works and ignore it when it doesn't.
>implying dante,logan,azrael,helbrecht are going to be perfectly fine with these NU marines rolling up and proclaiming themselves to be part of there respective chapters
do they even know the chapters traditions and habits ? arnt they all going to be basically like a rich kid pushed through officer academy and then attached to a group of regular soldiers who've been fighting for years and bonded and expect respect and obedience from them
Dante won't have a choice.
If the fault lied with the Primarchs and not their legions, then why would making marines from the legion's seed be an issue?
Sure, he'd probably have to keep an eye of them for a little bit to make sure they don't go crazy, or whatever, but it shouldn't be an issue if he just goes "Yeah, your patron Primarch kinda fucked up, but we aren't going to hold that against you guys because you're just as much sons of the Imperium as the rest of us."
You new or what. The Primarchs are already known to not even speak of the two missing Primarchs, and say things like "don't remind me about them" or "don't speak of them". You think any of them would be okay with their legacy walking around again? Their legions were disbanded for a reason.
Yeah, you're right, for a half a second there I forgot that literally no one in Warhammer 40k are reasonable.
>do they even know the chapters traditions and habits ?
They'd learn.
>And this, ya li'l fellas, is how ye attach the muzzle, so he doesn't try to bite ya when ya enter him
>Plottwist: It could be both Space Wolves or Dark Angels
Wut
Guillaume is having troubles even reimplementing Greater Ultramar and thats home turf. So you can imagine how difficult it would be with the rest of the galaxy still under nominal imperial control.
Nevermind the Mechanicus and the half of the Imperium cut off in the galactic north.
Space wolves fuck wolves but the wolves are PEOPLE and dark angels are just gay
Oh même bullshit carry on then
Well yes, I'm aware this was the primary reason for the compartmentalization it doesn't need to be down to the point that a single regiment is incapable of combined arms.
The 6th Mordian didn't arive in the right system?
Zero ground armor for you.
23rd Krieg got positioned 500 klicks from the AO due to incompetent command?
Sorry bud, you get no artillery support of any kind.
Imperial Navy Admiral Z. Branigan decided he wanted to carry more strikecraft instead of aeronautica?
Guess what friend, you get no air cover.
The degree it was done is asinine because it was done immediately after the Scouring when the Imperium was demilitarizing. Bobby G had no idea of the hell the Imperium was going into and didn't design the codex with the intent of multi- system conflicts in mind much less Segmentum scale crusades as the galaxy was virtually conquered and recovering when he jotted it down.
Dogmatic adherence may not have been his intent but that is what he garnered when he threatened war if the other primarchs and commanders didn't sign on. He just happened to bite shit before he could back off on the ultra-serious business side of it and make it read as some guidelines instead of Word-of-God.
That could finally give some depth to the whole spiritual liege thing
Where could I buy the new marines?
>Primaris Imperial Fists can spit acid for instance unlike the old ones.
>the old ones
THRONE DAMN IT, STOP REMINDING ME WE HAD TO REBUILD THE IMPERIAL FISTS AFTER THEY GOT SLAUGHTERED BY THOSE DAMNED GREENSKINS!
>Fuck GW, they never advance the plot.
>Fuck GW, they didn't advance the plot in a way I like.
Get over yourself Marinlets
So seeing as this is an 8th edition fluff thread, I have a few questions.
What happened to the Space Yiffs? Is Fenris lost?
How do they treat Primaris Space Marines?
If Fenris is lost, have they lost their world spirit shenanigans?
Would Wulfen be bigger than Primaris marines?
>Is Fenris lost?
No.
>How do they treat Primaris Space Marines?
Acceptance.
>Would Wulfen be bigger than Primaris marines?
Neither have canon heights as far as I know.
So Do Primaris Wolves just hang around on Fenris with the other wolves when they're relaxing? Or are they sort of under the command of Girlyman?
I have this idea for a Primaris Space Wolf force and I need a bit more info.
Basically, My idea is the Primaris Wolves dive head first into Fenrisian culture, painting their new fancy armor with Fenrisian symbols and having packs of wolves support their new formations.
>So Do Primaris Wolves just hang around on Fenris with the other wolves when they're relaxing?
Probably.
>Or are they sort of under the command of Girlyman?
They're all under the command of Guilliman, he's basically Emperor.
a bird cant turn into a shark
Yeah, those two lines come from completely different people. It's not a contradiction.
The people who wanted the plot to advance are the ones generally happy with Roman Wanker and his Elf Waifu solving all the Imperium's problems through Reasonable Marine-fu.
Those who kept thinking 'What part of 'only war' do you fucks not understand?' were the ones happy to see the plot not move.
...
Guilliman is officially Big E Lite
lol, nobody is stopping you from buying the old marines. They still are on sale.
Ur just a whiny lil biitch. Hope queerbags like u are hung.
Guilliman gave each chapter the means to convert existing Marines into Primaris, no one is getting phased out of left behind.
They'd likely have issues with the first generation made directly by Cawl, especially the Dark Angels; it's pretty safe to say none of them would be allowed in the Inner Circle.
But the following generations created/trained by them would probably be accepted just fine, since they'd have total oversight.
Anyone got a link for the Dark Imperium novel
There are no sharks in the void
>The only reason they went with something different and added fluff is so marine players didn't just shrug and go "I have my army". So they added new models, gave them better stats, cooler toys, and fluff that makes them marines+.
And they have done this shit time after time since 1st edition...
yes but why are they weaker on the table then?
Primaris lists are trash tier
>genetically superior
>melanin
At least one group was organized into a Successor Chapter, the Wolfspear.