Let's talk about Chaos, Veeky Forums
Specifically. lets make some new gods. There's a lot of "What if 40k was different?" type threads around here but most of them leave the Big 4 as is.
I say we come up with our own set of Ruinous Powers, their servants, how the Heresy would play out with these guys corrupting the traitor legions.
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So some questions that need answers
>How many (major) powers are there?
>What's their MO (Khorne is violence, Slaanesh is pleasure) and what's their emotion/thing they feed off of (Khorne is...also violence/anger, Tzeentch is hope)
>What are their aesthetics (Khorne has red and brass and skulls and spikes, Nurgle has green and disease and corpulence, Tzeentch has birds and rainbows and magical shit)
>What are their Daemons like?
>How do they feel about each other/react to each other?
>Who did they corrupt, and what are they like now?
>What does an X cult look like?
What is the end goal of Chaos, what is their victory condition?
They want to destroy mortal life yet feed from it.
That seems like a contradiction.
I feel like the end goal of these gods is to "reset" the universe and then remake it in their image.
Let's not.
Polite Sage
If I may ask, why not? I mean there's not been a lot of playing around with Chaos in general, and I think it has a lot of potential. I also don't personally think the current chaos gods are very interesting manifestations of what Chaos is and could be, which considering that they're the underpinning of a major part of the setting kind of sucks
They're parasites. It's simply their nature.
Anyhow, I just thought of this dude.
Engal the grand undead.
Engal is empowered by the end of things be it the death of a man or the end of a mans faith.
Engal also encompasses the acceptance of new ideas. When a noble decides to stop hating those below him and trys to help out those in the hive Engal chuckles and huddles in his cloak, ready to watch what happens.
His followers wear Orange and black robes and the animal they focus on is a Vulture.
Engals demons are short lived beasts that rely on swarming the enemy.
His deamons are the:
>The Perplexed
The greater deamons of Engal are called The perplexed. They look like anthropomorphic dogs with the heads of a Vulture. They commonly use weapons that have multiple uses such as a spear that breaks into two swords or a Hammer that can morph into a shovel.
The perplexed constantly change their minds and when in battle flail wildly with no skill.
>Mad things
The lesser daemons of Engal are known as Mad things and are slimes that can change their form however they want.
>Sightseers
The steeds of Engal are called Sightseers, and look like huge vulture.
They are like wyverns in that they can use their wings and legs to walk around.
Did I do goodish?
Honestly all of that seems to be a point of contention even in Canon. Some of it indicates that the chaos gods are ultimately self destructive, parasites that will eventually destroy their hosts and then fade into oblivion as they're starved of believers
Other versions say that there's more to them, and/or that a chaos victory will end with the materium fundamentally changed so that the cycle of worship and predation can continue forever
It's fitting that chaos is so unknown and conflicting
They don't require life to exist. And furthermore, they live in a multiverse which they are connected to all of it. One universe destroyed matters not, there are many more.
It's simply your nature to be stupid? They are predators. Universes are their prey.
>muh headcanon THAT'S TOTALLY CANON says this
Fuck off and die, dweep. There is contntion except for the merit of your miserable life. It's established since 2nd and 3rd ed that the Chaos Gods are immortal and eternal. Their fates is not tied to the fate of the material universe. Nothing born in the Warp can truly die. If Chaos destroys the material universe and destroys all life, then Chaos will remain.
There is not contention*
The stupid its contagious
I'm a lore babby but I still don't understand how if the Gods feed off of beings, then destroying most of those beings benefits them
Which is kind of faggy chaos wank. It would be more fitting to the whole grimdark thing if in the end nobody wins, not just "lel chaos is 2 stronk 2 lose haha"
The Chaos Gods live in a realm that doesn't acknowledge time. How can some die when time doesn't exist?
Secondly, you are a dumbass. What you are saying is like saying that a dude would die if he finished a single chicken (galaxy). Dude, there are many more chickens out there to eat. An infinite number of them. You can eat as much chickens as you want.
The old lore was basically that it doesn't, but that they don't or can't care and can only act according to their nature, which will ultimately fuck them over. At some point, though, they became massive Mary sues, because now somehow the beings spawned of and very reliant on mortal thought, emotion, and belief can survive the death of all mortals and just jack themselves off forever. Chaos' lore has a tendency to come off like the kid on the playground who'd insist that nuh uh your attack doesn't work because he has a super special forcefield that actually kills you instead
It's more grimdark that you are hopeless in face of an immortal evil that ill never stop until all existence in the multiverse is consumed. Everyone loses is some childish concept of wanting things to be fair. Well, it's not fair. The 40K universe is about grimdark and utter unfairness. You live to suffer and die and then suffer some more in death, all while thirsting gods laugh at your pathetic little lives.
But the chaos gods are very specific to this galaxy and it's races. They exist because of them. The warp is an edgy shithole specifically because the old ones and necrontyr were violent asshats, and slaanesh was made by a bunch of elves getting too into coke and bdsm. As much as chaosfags and some of the writers try to make them cosmic, unknowable forces above everything and independent of mortals, they most certainly are not according to basically everything else
>The old lore was basically that it doesn't, but that they don't or can't care and can only act according to their nature, which will ultimately fuck them over.
Utterly false. The old lore is the same as the new lore in that regard. You deserve to be kicked in the balls for lying.
Like I said, the 2nd Eldar codex and 3rd ED main rulebook are clear on that matter. The Chaos Gods are immortal and don't require life to exist.
Your tendency to try to pass your headcanon as actual fluff marks you out as a manchild.
>ITT chaosfags who can't even consider their special edge sues not being definitely the winners of everything without going into a frothing rage
>But the chaos gods are very specific to this galaxy and it's races.
No, the Chaos Gods exist outside the galaxy and outside the universe.
>They exist because of them.
Not really. As time is meaningless in the Warp, they have already existed within the Warp.
> The warp is an edgy shithole specifically because the old ones and necrontyr were violent asshats, and slaanesh was made by a bunch of elves getting too into coke and bdsm.
See above.
Be'lakor and the daemons of Chaos predate the War in Heaven by billions of years. They were a great scourge for the Old Ones to the point that they constructed Daemon Cages and the Webway to combat their threat.
>they most certainly are not according to basically everything else
"Not according to my headcanon".
Dear C'tan gods, why do you people insist to ignore old and new lore like that and try to change it with your flawed headcanon.
>GW decides to End Times 40k
>There is No Space. No Time. Only Chaos. Truly this was the Time of Ending. But it was also a Beginning.
>implying Veeky Forums has any creativity any more
>implying Veeky Forums can come up with anythign thatnisn't shit
>implying GW didn't steal all the chaos gods from other sources, like EVERYTHING ELSE
The finite cannot hope to defeat the infinite. Something Sigmar learned the hard way.
Daemons of Nurgle and Tzeentch reportedly watched the universe die. Heck, one of the most powerful daemons of Nurgle was born when the last atomic reaction happened in the universe before it faded to nothing.
Do you serious believe that the Imperium of man or any race (even the Necrons) will last to see the end of the universe? No, only Chaos will see its end and move on.
Can we get back on topic here? I just wanted to talk about alternative takes on chaos/alternative gods and traitors
Not canon.
I'd like to believe we can do something other than just yell at each other
You summoned the Carnac, OP. All hope is lost.
That's literally what I'm suggesting, dude. Alternative canon a la the Hektor Heresy, etc.
Who?
Yeah, but just making a 40k thread summons Carnac to shit all over it.
Veeky Forums has too many autists who get triggered by "alternate canon." see
But Hektor Heresy is awful. Just read Moorcock.
That sounds fucking cool mang. And better yet believable.
My only postulate is that a simple change of mind is a natural and almost unnoticeable thought pattern. For the Imperium to try to fight something like this lest they empower Engal then idk what anyone could do. Ya feel me?
>Nothing born in the Warp can truly die
>What are Eldar gods?
>What is the Sapphire Prince?
>What are the eight Bloodthirsters Khorne permakilled for failing to take Terra?
Turbo-autistic Chaosfag who lives but to wank Chaos and shit on every other faction, but especially the Tyranids.
Once there was a namefag named Carnac, who was a rabid chaosfag and always shitted threads when someone in-universe or out-universe proposed the idea that the Chaos Gods could actually *gasp* lose. Thanks to his namefagging, most of Veeky Forums actually ignored and reported him, then keeping the thread like he never was there.
Now, Carnac is the name of chaosfags (incluying OG Carnac) who always defend the Chaos Gods, Archaon and/or Abbadon by cherry-picking fluff (the newer the better), while calling anyone who puts fluff where Chaos does get their arses kicked liars, autists and other insults; and the fluff they oppossed they call it outdated, headcanon, fanfic, lies, memes, etc.
They can get pro-Chaos wank from the Black Library books, but when someone use the same source to call them out, they go "lol no, BL is not canon!" (Imperialfags do the same, BTW)
Well I was thinking that being stalwart in what you belive in weakens him. Like if a Space marine was stalwart while facing Engals daemons they do very little against him.
>>What are Eldar gods?
Sleeping in Slaanesh's stomach.
The other are just exception that prove the rule. Even then, due to the timelessness of the Warp, they are still around in some timeline or two. Hence why M'kar despite true-dying at the hands of Calgar who stabbed him with the Shard of Erebus, is fighting Draigo at the place they first met.
Was Carnac ever a namefag with Carnac? I know he was a tripfag under TIDF at one point.
>They can get pro-Chaos wank from the Black Library books, but when someone use the same source to call them out, they go "lol no, BL is not canon!" (Imperialfags do the same, BTW)
This is why the "Everything is true" philosophy is best philosophy. Because in theory, it removes "not canon" from the equation once both parties provide a source, and instead invites discussion on which conflicting viewpoint is of the highest quality.
Unfortunately, on the internet, the practicality of it is a very different story. Too many egotistical dickheads and autists.
That's completely wrong and fabricated. Carnac did no such thing
archive.4plebs.org
He just posted about the rules and roleplayed a bit as servo-skull. He has like a total of 10 posts. You are a fucking asshole.
I forgot, when they do get BTFO, they will goalpost (change the meat of the discussion) to save face, like here.
> while calling anyone who puts fluff where Chaos does get their arses kicked liars, autists and other insults; and the fluff they oppossed they call it outdated, headcanon, fanfic, lies, memes, etc.
Alright. Assuming you are the user who posted this . Show me the "old lore" that says the Chaos Gods would die in mortals died out.
I am waiting.
>inb4 chickens out.
>New god of destruction and war, (and life?)
But I didn't post either the quote you linked or the post you linked.
No, goalpost changed. I said the Chaos Gods live in a timeless realm where they are immortal and eternal.
Even gave you an example of a daemon that was erased from existence, appearing like nothing happened in another location to fight again. Dude, you just can't handle being wrong.
You cannot truly kill a daemon.
Mistake on my part. Meant to link to this post. In any case, he knows himself and I am waiting.
Well this threads been ruined.
Eldar gods are explicitly dead.
The eight exalted Bloodthirsters where "wholly obliterated". They don't exist anymore.
The Sapphire Prince was literally killed by the sheer force of a Space Marine being pissed at him.
Warp entities are hard to kill, but it can be done.
Tends to happen when one faction gets wanked hard. It inevitably leads to cries of GROGNARD! or NUCANON! or HEADCANON!, or CARNAC! or BLACK LIBRARY SHIT! and the whole thread explodes. Shit, a faction just doesn't even have to get wanked. Some user just might say the right thing to trigger the right autist. Sorry OP
Not OP.
I'm the dude that made I really liked the idea that OP had for the thread though.
Sleeping in Slaanesh. Yriel, IIRC, saw them rise anew from death of Slaanesh. How could they still be a thing if they were gone?
And you just deflected from the M'kar thing. M'kar was ERASED from existence. His essence was DES-TROYED. Yet we see him emerging from the Warp to fight his nemesis Draigo once again. How could this be? Because the Warp doesn't respect time. These daemons might have been destroyed utterly but that's from one point of view. Within the Warp where its reported that there is no after or before just now and now forever, these daemons exist still sometime in the timestream.
>Yet we see him emerging from the Warp to fight his nemesis Draigo once again.
That happened before M'Kar was destroyed. The Draigo fight happened when M'Kar was supposedly chained up in the battle station, because Ward's fluff was consistent and said that M'Kar was banished and then returned, while that didn't work for McNeill's DRAMA.
Last least in theory, we don't know when in 999.M41 Draigo happened while we know M'Kar began his invasion of Macragge in the last two months (850999.M41) of 999
I dig it. It's like if Nurgle, Tzeentch, and the Maiden of Endings had a kid.
I've come up with one, but I'm a little concerned it steps on Engal's toes a bit
>Lloron, the Untraveled Road
Lloron represents sorrow, or more specifically regret. Every path not taken looked upon longingly, every moment of hesitation that haunts your nights, every hard choice that you wish you could take back. These all feed the Queen of Maybe.
Her cultists wear mourning clothes of their culture, dyed in bright azure and lapis and seafoam. Much of their ritual and methods are the same, gaudy mockeries of funerary practicies. Her animal motifs tend to focus on sea life
Her daemons are seducers and decievers first, warriors second. They seek to push mortals to their breaking points, engineering situations that will force them to make impossible choices.
>Dolorae
The Dolorae, or Sufferers, are her greater daemons. They resemble tall, beautiful, blue skinned humans wearing ornate clothing at first glance, like exquisite, bloated corpses. Their robes (actually long. flowing fins like a Betta fish) hide countless weeping faces, writhing ice-blue veins, and their funeral veils hide lamprey-like mouths.
>Lacrimae
Lloron's lesser daemons are called Lacrimae, and take the form of indistinct, watery humanoids. They are masters of disguise, and can change themselves into many forms, though their transparent eyes always give them away under scrutiny. They love to seek out those who have suffered some sort of loss and take the form of their fallen loved one, to give them hope of forgiveness and reunion, and then to "die" tragically in a way that leads their victim to believe it's their fault.
>???
Idk. Some combination of extinct sea creatures (whale trilobites?) with a weeping womans face. Big and tanky, can maybe cry Lacrimae?
>Notice how he substitutes speculation for literal direct omniscient statements confirming the death of the Eldar Gods.
>Note how he doesn't even try to respond to the Sapphire Prince getting obliterated by sheer force of will and never returning, or the very latest fluff showing Khorne permakilling his own daemons for failure.
Carnac's gonna Carnac.
It's okay. I'll try it again some other time, and hopefully we'll get some more constructive responses. I appreciate the people who were interested and contributed stuff. Y'all are cool
If M'kar was defeated and banished him, then M'kar would stuck in the Warp for a set period of time which is a thousand years and 1 day, I believe. Making it unlikely that he was in both events within the same year unless time shenanigans were involved in which case his death wouldn't matter.His banishment or death didn't stop him from being somewhere else.
McNeill novels are still being released with an upcoming novel sometime in the future. In his current short stories following previous novel series he maintains the events of his previous novels about M'kar's destruction. So the current narrative is M'kar is history but will make an appearance Acralem to fight Draigo again.
It does a bit but that's chill.
Maybe we can have a duality thing going on? Like Engal is constant change and Lloron is doing her best to stay on one path?
No problem OP.
Hopefully it works out.
The lore says that the C'tan Gods are dead gods. They are far from it. They are just shards waiting to be pieced together.
The lore says that ALL Eldar Gods are dead with the exception of Khaine and Cegorach. When we know for a fact that Isha lives.
Death is subjective to gods who can be rise again. Their essences are locked in Slaanesh. They never went away. So they never truly died.
As for the daemons, You have M'kar. Enjoy.
The Twin Headed god of Tyranny & Strife
Two desiccated eagle heads top a corpse-like body. It is colored in shades of gold & bronze, but tarnished & gaudy, it drags a cloak of thousands upon thousands of black souls of humanity, their screams & wails creating a symphony of agony.
It manifests with the death of the God-Emperor
This is the big bad I'm gonna use for my epic Dark Heresy game
>then M'kar would stuck in the Warp for a set period of time which is a thousand years and 1 day, I believe
M'Kar always came back pretty quick for a daemon. He was banished in 799, theoretically by Calgar in 935 though McNeill says Calgar imprisoned him, he was banished in 935 by Mephiston, possibly (though unconfirmed) by Sky Sentinels exterminatus in 997, Draigo in 999 (Grey Knights 5e said Draigo was cursed with M'Kar's death throes and was indeed banished), and Calgar destroying his essence in the same year.
>he was banished in 935 by Mephiston
That was a typo, Mephiston encountered M'Kar in 965
>mfw where I live we use Llorón a lot.
Tell me more abot that game.
>theoretically by Calgar in 935 though McNeill says Calgar imprisoned him,
>he was banished in 935 by Mephiston
Torn apart by Calgar and strangled to death by Mephiston. Daemons return faster if they are just killed off like that without words of banishment.
>Draigo in 999 (Grey Knights 5e said Draigo was cursed with M'Kar's death throes and was indeed banished)
I don't recall the 5th ED codex saying how their fight ended.
In any case, it took him years reconstitute himself. A less than a single year reforming is very unlikely unless you know what.
Nice headcannon you got there.
Hey OP, there's nothing stopping you from making a new thread with a new image and the caveat you don't want pro/anti Chaos wankery derailing it.
>A less than a single year reforming is very unlikely unless you know what.
Considering that McNeil decided that Calgar lied about ripping up M'Kar for drama (potentially removing M'Kar from the other events), and then brought back Ward's favorite daemon to permanently kill him inside of a year, is, best case scenario: McNeill just not giving shit. Worst case scenario: McNeill taking a cheap pot shot at the Ultramarines and Ward in an era where Ward/Ultramarine hate was the in thing.
I supposed it could be read your way too though.
>Considering that McNeil decided that Calgar lied about ripping up M'Kar for drama (potentially removing M'Kar from the other events)
The novels "Calgar's Siege" and Calgar's Fury" proves that there are lies spun about Calgar and even told by him (He did not hold a gate by himself against Orks for a day and a night, he did not successfully complete his mission to clear the space hulk in fact he failed). So it's not out of the question that he lied about M'kar's fate like he did with those two events.
It seems to me that YOU have a grudge against McNeill for some reason.
That's true, but it's not like that stops people.
Eh, fuck it.
>It seems to me that YOU have a grudge against McNeill for some reason.
Not so much McNeill himself as BL. I find BL does its best work with OC events, and almost always changes preexisting events for the worse. There are exceptions of course, but they're exceptions.
Starts with some standard Heresy stuff, each of the players have drawn the attention of a Chaos god
One of them is a Judge Dredd wannabe Arbites, he was pulling a raid on a hospital that housed a cult to Slannesh, surgery addiction/morphine addicts that sort of thing. We RP'd him busting skulls & trying to stop a ritual to summon a greater daemon. He is secretly an Untouchable, & the daemon is having trouble seeing him without a body, killing his entire task force instead. He finally goes to shock maul skullsmash the doctor who is leading the ritual, when the doc finishes, plunging his scalpel into the heart of a woman sacrifice. Doc dies, but daemon is born, possessing the woman
Time slows
She sits up
Grabs the falling scalpel from the now dead doc
Looks Arbites in the eyes
Whispers "I see you now"
Slices Arbites throat
Arbites wakes up later to see the bloodbath, he was saved by medics, he's the sole survivor. Gets applauded for his service. Gets a vox caster to replace his ruined vocals. As he is being wheeled out by a nurse she bends down & whispers "Thank you for saving me" It's the girl possessed dressed as a nurse, he tries to get someone's attention but she disappears. He gets recruited by Ingusitor
Another is a qt psyker girl on a research station with a vast library. She gets a message that she is going to be assigned to give knowledge & psyker related assistance to an Inquistitors Acolyte squad. So she boards a voidship to meet up with everyone. Bad shit goes down on the Voidship, the Rogue Trader she is hitching a ride of, gets fed a stew that breeds evil psychic rats in his guts that burst out, him & his upper rank crew.
Gellar field flickers
Rats in the Walls
All Warp breaks loose
Psyker gril, helps kill shit & hold the ship together (literally with telekinesis at one point) ship comes out of it halfway alright, docks & she joins the team.
Cont.
>almost always changes preexisting events for the worse.
Calgar's Siege was the worst in that regard for me. Because I read the entire book thinking, "There's only one key fact about this event, Calgar held the gate alone, and Black Library always retcons a key fact when the cover codex events, so they're going to retcon that he's alone because that's pretty much all there is to retcon." And then it happened like clockwork and I rolled my eyes.
I think it's a product of Laurie Goulding era. In his interview (The one that anons like pointing to where he says everything in the IP is cool) he says he directed authors and directed his own attention to making 40k fluff "more realistic".
>What’s the context, what makes it believable?
I bet under a different editor, Calgar would have certainly held that gate alone and two honor guard with him would have been overkill.
Psyker girl talked to the rats for a bit though, & grew the eye of Nurgle
The other two flaked so game is on hiatus for now. Plan on having equally badass/horrible intros for the other tying them to Khorne & Tzeneech.
Story will be standard stuff till a point where everything gets turned up to eleven.
Keynotes being that the Inquistitor they are working for will be killed, they will then step up & take his Sigil & carry on. Hopefully one will step into the shoes & be an Inquistitor. After a bit more of a greater mystery, following clues of the dead Inquistitor they will learn that he is actually alive though the one they first met was just a proxy.
They will gain an empty Eldar Soulstone.
They will be forced to retreat from some big evil into a remnant gate of the Webway, travel through it into the Emperor's chamber.
Kill the Emperor
This causes the new Chaos God of Tyranny & Strife to appear. Promptly kills & enslaved Terra, PCS will escape through a secret tunnel or something, into the bowels of his Palace. They go down into his old ancient labs that no one has entered, in forever. Inside they find an Old One, held prisoner, the source of a lot of the Emperor's knowledge. The Old one will help them in exchange for freedome. & give them exposition on how Humanity was actually formed, & who Emps really was.
The Imperium is at its darkest, the PCS will travel around trying to help & stuff, during this time they will come to realize that the Emps soul is trapped in the Soulstone that they carry. Finally hope!!!
They will then travel to figure out how to bring him back. They will eventually find some crazy Tech-Priest constructing a new Titan form out of Necrodermis. (I might even just put Cawl in here even tough he didn't exist in the lore when I made this campaign)
They will plug Emps into it, creating in the eyes of the Mechanicus, the actual Omnissiah. & bringing Emps back into real space to wreck shit & take Terra back by storm, maybe slaying the new Chaos God or not Idk. I love the idea of cludging a bunch of Xenos tech together to save humanity since it's super Heresy. & basically that where I'll end it. With a truly immortal God Emperor, a walking Heresy, turned into the Ebon Guardian. & humanity trying to find the light.
How many divine numbers are in use in 40k?
5, I believe. One for each of the Big 4, plus Malal.
Khorne=8
Nurgle=Either 7 or 3.
Slaanesh=6
Tzeentch-9
Malal=11
Thank you.
I am interested in exploring further possibilities from this angle.