Kamigakari Thread

Yes, but it takes two spirit dice and doesn't work once you've become engaged (meaning you need to have the steps on approach before you've engaged in combat to cycle your pool). It's shit man. Would you rather spend two dice on Secrets of the Destroyer, Focused Assault, both Crystal Transformations or Shadow Breach?

If its your main style and you are level 3 you can get sillhouette, which also gives you a free attack at no extra cost.

Shadow freerun makes it so it doesn't take up the prep timing.

Dark slayer art might reduce the cost, but i'd ask kamigakari user for the specifics on that.

Pursue weakness gives you extra attacks with it.

With shadowtool they can pull something out, move, knock that guy down, use the item, and then still make an attack.

You are right that out of the other talents its weak on its own, but all of them get balanced out by what gets added afterward.

I should also mention with shadowrun proficiency, you ignore all penalties for withdrawing, meaning you can go in and out of range almost as you please.

Since you can still make ranged attacks, and your die are not reduced, that means that if you are dual wielding a 1-handed sword and a gun of some sort with ambidexterity, you can make attacks at any range as you please, without fear of engagements. Since it also turns full move actions to use prep, this means you also get your attack timing afterwards instead of wasting the entire action on withdrawing.

Back to those contractor pics.

Rather, pic. Apparently this is the last one i had from that character art thread. Oh well, i have some others that are interesting.

...

artstation.com/artist/robertchew

Damn, nice follow up. I never got the source for these, just the pics.

This one reminds me of the girls from blazblue.

None of that is unique to Shadow Breach, however. Let's count the ways it sucks...

-Bad Silhouette combo because you can't use it while Engaged. Better to use something like Rending Gale Art, which still spends Prep but works while you're actually fighting, or any of the myriad talents that let you move while bypassing engagements.
-Debatable if it works with Shadow Freerun. 'Combat Move' is an action unto itself, not just a thing you do. If it's referring to the action (and I think it does refer to it since IIRC you can only make one Combat Move action even if you move your Combat Move speed repeatedly in a round using talents - additionally Shadowrunner's High specifically says Shadow Breach counts, implying it normally wouldn't), then Shadow Breach is irrelevant.
-Pursue Weakness is indeed only popped by Shadow Breach within DHA, but that doesn't make it good. Just as a contrast, Legion A's Field CQC will pop Pursue Weakness round in round out for a whopping no spirit, and all you need to do is what you wanted to do anyway (hit with an attack). Elder Mage A's Sympathetic Wounds is more flexible, does damage of its own, and still inflicts a meaty-ass shift. DHB's own Shadow Slaying Art also requires Steps, but it moves you, is an attack, and dishes out Fallen. Shadow Breach is the fallback if you have nothing else that can proc Pursue Weakness, not the go-to - because it takes a whopping three dice to get one attack and you can probably do way better than that.
-Dark Shadow Art does indeed make Shadow Breach usable. Key word here is that it's usable, not good, because the problems above persist nonetheless.
-I'm not sure what Shadow Tool has to do with anything. It'll work the same way whether you have Shadow Breach or not.

The point is that none of what boosts Shadow Breach except Dark Shadow Art is really very good when used with it. The move is just too terrible and trying to boost it is throwing good money after bad.

(Cont.)

Let's count the ways you can do Shadow Breach's thing but better using the talents you pointed out.

Using Silhouette: Ultra Martial Arts, Jumping Power or Spatial Move all will enable to silhouette repeatedly when you lack ideal setup. UMA in particular is choice because it breaks engagements, meaning that you get to Silhouette every single round if enemies attack you (if they don't you just go ham on them so all is good). Note that these are all common talents because I want to prove how shit Shadowbreach is, that ANY combo of DHA with something else can replace it with something better for this purpose.

Shadow Freerun: It probably doesn't work with Shadow Breach so that's that. The actual combo is things that take Prep but don't move you, mostly.

Pursue Weakness: Examples were listed in the preceding post, so no point insisting.

Dark Shadow Art: Hilariously *still* worse with Shadowbreach than most other things. As an obvious example, Rending Gale Art becomes PERMANENTLY FREE with this upgrade. Shadowbreach merely becomes usable. You tell me which is better here.

I don't want it to sound like I'm shitting on your opinions or anything. I'm just super salty at how worthless this fucking ability is. It feels shitty that their auto ability isn't, IDK, Shadowstrike, Shadow Tool or anything else. Shadowbreach does nothing unique, it just does something worse than other talents instead of better like a Main Style autotalent should.

>none of that is unique to

Dude what? being able to move without penalties on full actions is entirely unique to dark hunter. Shadow freerun too.

Also, Shadow breach specifically states that you make a COMBAT MOVE in its description, with the added bonus of inflicting [shift:fallen]. Thus, Since its specifically a combat move, Shadow freerun would count.

Shadow tool was just an aside point. Since you can pull it out as a start action, move without consuming prep, then use that prep to use the item, you save a lot on action economy if you ever find the need.

With just shadowrun proficiency you can move in, inflict fallen, make an attack, and watch them waste their prep getting back up so you can make another attack, then just move back out on your next prep, ignoring engagements because withdraw is now a prep action. With one talent you increase your mobility to the point that no enemy can feasibly keep up without major penalties.

They even have attack talents that work in melee or ranged, and can use them without penalty after withdrawing.

>As an obvious example, Rending Gale Art becomes PERMANENTLY FREE with this upgrade

That assumes it works with any and all talents that have prep timing, which i'm iffy on. thats a lot of free talents. I'd ask kamigakari user if thats actually the case, as that seems like a major hole in the ability.

>Also, Shadow breach specifically states that you make a COMBAT MOVE in its description, with the added bonus of inflicting [shift:fallen]. Thus, Since its specifically a combat move, Shadow freerun would count.

No, actually, I asked a question about Shadow Freerun once upon a time and was told by KGKAnon that Combat Move and 'make a Combat Move' are distinct (because the Combat Move action may only be taken once, but talents that make you move your Combat Move distance don't count as Combat Moves, thus allowing you to go fast). I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply based on that.

As for being able to move without penalties, I...don't agree? Legion A's can move three squares post-attack and give themselves five extra squares of movement per round for one spirit die without consuming Prep (potentially better than Shadow Freerun since this can be done to anyone, not just yourself), Time Wizard A can basically lol at engagements due to Blink Move and Flip Warp, Contractor As can literally Install at-will as long as they have starts and a spirit die with a 4 on it via Astonishing Rush and have Charge built into their weapons, and Arc Slayer As can charge 7 squares with Destroyer's Fangs. Shadow Freerun is a very good ability and it'd actually be a very cool 'auto' for the DHA, but it's not like it's absolutely matchless. Just worth having.

Yeah, it's possible he dun goofed and it's meant to be DHA Preps only (in which case it should just read 'Shadowbreach costs less' because it is the ONLY Prep they have), but I don't think so. It'd be too shit if that was the case.

My issue with that distinction in this case is that it also makes shadow freerun nearly useless as well. Those two seem like they are meant to synergize. if thats what kamigakari user said, though, i guess thats that.

As for legion A, you realize with a dark hunters massive initiative, the boost from proficiency, and making a withdraw action, the range they can move in a combat move can easily exceed 7 squares right? using base ass martial scion with 4 agility and DHA as the main style, thats automatically 19 initiative right? a combat move without buffs would be 8 squares at level 1.

8 squares at level 1, with no engagement penalties and the ability to continue shooting at range after the move, for 1 talent. Thats tough to beat, even for the other guys. The main difference here though, is that this scales with stats. At level 2 its up to 9. at level 5 it goes up to 10. With freerun it goes up by another two initiative, plus any agi buffs you get from materials or consumables, etc etc.

It just gets better and better. This doesn't help shadow breach per se, but it does let you get out of engagements, the main issue WITH shadow breach. Shadow breach is used to engage, proficiency to disengage and still be able to act. Since they both work as combat moves, that also means that you can go in and leave at your full range without penalty or being out of range of getting back in.

Hit and run tactics, if you will.

>using base ass martial scion with 4 agility and DHA as the main style, thats automatically 19 initiative right? a combat move without buffs would be 8 squares at level 1.

Sorry, i forgot to mention that if you put the initial stat point you get into agility, everything moves up by a level.

Full moves are garbage though - you can't move in any direction except a horizontal or vertical line with them (and I don't THINK that's a penalty? If it is then Shadowrun Proficiency is very clutch). Combat Moves are almost always superior because they let you approach diagonally. Being able to withdraw at will is great though, mostly because it lets you take gofast synergy talents like Storm Assault and spam them more consistently (can you use a Combat Move after spending all your Prep if you have Shadow Freerun? I'm actually not sure). That part is very legit.

(Also, I disagree that Shadow Freerun is bad if it doesn't combo with Shadow Breach. It turns your movement action into offensive firepower or defensive boosts if you can find any use for your Preps between your racial abilities and your style moves, which is great, and you don't sacrifice mobility for it. It just isn't a combo with a shitty auto ability, but in itself it remains great.)

Withdraw itself doesn't say you only move in a straight line, so depending on interpretation you could feasibly move how you wish.

As for shadow freerun, thats entirely dependant on a second style, a variable to wild for me to actually include in the thought process. It can be great, but if you don't have a style it works for its also complete shit.

Thus, since it doesn't also synergize with its main style, i'm calling it particularly bad, with the potential to be good.

Also, you seriously underestimate the impact of -2 to ACC and EVA. Thats more chance to hit, less chance to be hit, and worst case scenario you've rooted the guy in place because he has to waste a prep to stand up.

your main issue was that breach didn't let you move out of engagements, but proficiency lets you do so with ease. And then do it again. Then out. Then do it again. All while the rest of your party nukes this poor motherfucker.

the biggest thing though, is that it doesn't make you make an attack roll. It isn't an attack. It can't miss. and it can't be avoided unless they have some way to avoid [Shift:Fallen] outright. Also, [Shift:Fallen] removes [Shift:Flight], making flying mononoke susceptible to engagements.

So let's say I go all the way with this current campaign I'm running, and eventually my players manage to acquire the [Promise of Ascension]. What direction would you go with that?

Should it be a grey-area filled bittersweet thing like End of Evangelion, or should it be a full-on happy ending? Where would you go with something as Universe-shattering as 'everyone's wish being granted'?

I'd go the Eva path in this case, simply because "Everyone" is a lot of fucked up individuals.

That's what I was thinking as well, but I want to stray away from straight up aping EoE, since it's already so famous and was done so well.

Obviously instead of everyone becoming 'one' you could have everyone escaping into their own realities where all their wishes are granted, which makes a huge amount of parallel universes. Otherwise you get a broken form of reality where multiple people's wishes conflict with one another. (One person wishing for the destruction of everything, another person wishing for harmony and love forever, etc).

There's very little writing about the Promise of Ascension for how important it apparently is to Godhunters in general.

People have gone on long and rough crusades to find a magical wish granting cup before, so its not like humans, especially powerful ones, aren't unknown to zealotry in the face of a promise of some form of wish.

Upon reading through it one more time, I think I misunderstood. When I read that it was a spell that ensures that 'all dreams are realized', it's only referring to the dream of the person who found it.

I mistakenly thought that it instantly granted the wish of every sentient being on Earth, which is a whole different ballgame. Or maybe it does? It's kind of unclear.

I think thats intentional. Considering the wording of the name though, its a safer bet to assume it only means that singular person.

Honestly I like the ramifications of the first interpretation better, so that's probably what I'll go with.

It's not really being underestimated so much as being considered vs cost. Field CQC is one of the most powerful talents in the game because it inflicts fallen for free. Shadow Breach costs two spirit dice. Among other things, two spirit dice can let you:

-Make two additional attacks.
-Activate 'strike-all' talents.
-No-sell a killing blow.
-Recover half of your HP.

And several other things, all of which are better than a +2 to hit and dodge (and even then only vs physical attacks, not magic or specials). Fallen just isn't a big enough deal to spend two dice on. That's what makes Shadow Breach shit. If it cost one die it'd actually be pretty worthwhile.

Field CQC requires you to hit though. Shadow breach doesn't.

You are also forgetting that mononoke have prep timings as well. So causing [Shift:Fallen] Means they need to make a choice between being gimped and using their timing, or getting up to avoid getting nuked.

Not to mention, fallen halves all movement as well as removes flight outright. It certainly isn't the best thing out there, but when all it takes is a prep and two dice, which is not a terribly high cost no matter how you spin it, to make a move you already would have and then inflict fallen, and THEN you can attack afterward, All of which is guaranteed up until the attack roll you make.

Your issue is that you are assuming you will always be able to get the dice for those other things. In reality, that is nearly never the case. Any one turn you need to use what you can, or waste an entire turn changing a dice. Its better to waste a couple dice on a lackluster ability, than it is to waste an entire turn to change a dice.

The simplest answer to "Why should i use this instead of X" is simply that you won't always be able to do X. Sometimes, the best option is to waste a couple dice to use shadow breach, and inflict fallen.

Also, steps are some of the easiest costs to get next to single cost. You are more likely to have steps at any one time than doubles. In fact, wasting steps to cause fallen is a pretty effective way to cycle die towards something better.

Another thing, +-2 is actually more than you think in this game, since the numbers are sub 20 until at least level 4 without some serious min-maxing. On a 2d6+mod dice, plus or minus two is a major amount.

Did the math on this. This doesn't include weapons or anything like that. I'm basing this on the probability of rolling on a 2d6

Assuming Cyborg at 6 ACC 6, with dark hunter as the main style, that brings you to 7 ACC. 8 with the extra point, but i won't count that.

Assuming a crit roll of 6-6, thats 19 or 20 at max. Going by the stats i made in for the homebrew mononoke guide, all mononoke have sub 20 stats until level 6 at least. usually between 10 to 15. but lets assume the average at 13.

this means that on average assuming a roll of 6 on your acc check with the +7 from ACC mod your chance to hit or be hit is 72.23%

the chances of you hitting 11 are much higher, because you need to roll a 4 or higher, which is about a 92% chance to hit.

The chances for evasion are about the same but 1 higher on the dice because they have to beat the opposed roll instead of meet it. Thats literally a 20% increase to your chances to hit.

First off: +2/-2 is simply not comparable to 'make another attack'. Any time you can get even one extra swing off a die, you have not a single reason to use Shadow Breach. This can be to the same enemy or to multiples, it doesn't really matter. This means the first three things I listed (hit more times, AoE, survive a blow that would inflict Downed) all are superior to Shadow Breach. They have a similar cost. The answer is clear - always get more hits in over more movement.

As for your other point...it's just not really true. You should never really be too thirsty for dice, that's like the whole optimization metagame in Kamigakari - you build such that *no matter what happens*, you'll cycle your full pool out, or as close as possible. This isn't too hard to achieve from level 1 even if you have demanding talents like something that takes two of the same specific dice, because you have access to two racial talents and one of those (or one of your style talents) really should go into 'spirit-fixing' - Aura Commandment, Spirit Control, Yin Style, Power Emission, whatever, you have options, always. I can make a mockup build or two if you'd like that always has something better to do with its pool than Shadow Breach, and shows off why using dice on a shit ability is actually suboptimal compared to just keeping them in reserve.

+2 to hit might not be comparable to another attack, but -2 to theirs is comparable to not taking another attack. Which is always good. On top of this, they can only half move and have to waste prep to stand up.

And while there are always spirit control methods, you won't always have them, have them available, or take them immediately. Plus, racial talents like superhuman strength and such, CANNOT BE USED IN COMBAT. They require a stat check to be made, which are never made in combat unless something extremely specific happens.

So right there, most racials are out. In fact, all of them are but spirit control. None in the main book work on anything but stat or appearance checks besides that. Its also just +or - 1, which while helpful, is not the greatest thing ever at 1/round. not to mention requiring you to be human. Dragon lord has an equivalent, but faces the issue of taking an attack timing to use.

As for the others, those assume you have that style. Yin style's not bad, but assumes someone has what you need. Assumes you are arc slayer though.

Aura commandment is pretty good for a general feat. This one i'll give you, its just an all around good pick.

Power emission is great, but only works once per combat.

So the best you have on average if you aren't arc slayer A is to increase a couple dice by one or two once a round. If combat lasts more than say, 3 rounds, your spirit control severely drops unless you have a digital sorcerer or a divine talker.

There's a bunch of others scattered around the books, but in totality, they are a very meager portion of the entirety of what you can choose from, and often require you to take a specific race or style just for them. Magic weapons have 1. but that assumes you are using magic weapons.

You'd be surprised. Off the top of my head, listing spirit-fixers worth taking as I see 'em...

-Spirit Control, Human. Mentioned this one already.
-Aura Commandment, Common. Same.
-Power Emission, Common. Yup.
-Influence Destiny, Hanyou. Any roll you make outside combat is effectively a chance to fix your spirit pool, and this makes it even easier by letting you chuck four dice worth of potential replacements during a safe roll. Level 3+.
-Moment of Hope, Human. Like Power Emission and stacks with it.
-Epigone Style, ARC B. A very very strong fixer, granting overflow any time you succeed at defending yourself.
-Shadow Art Amplify, DRK B. If you're working on mezzing this is a pretty neat option that generates consistent Overflow.
-Spirit Flux, ELD B. Not a self-fixer, but fuckin' amazing for the entire party.
-Dragonpulse Convergence, Dragon Lord. Your diepool is a built in spirit fixer. This helps with that.
-Dragonpulse Shift, Dragon Lord. Nothing to say about this one, it's Spirit Control again.
-Purify Spirit, Divine Soul. Out of combat Yin Style. Still a very easy way to come into a fight with a perfect stack on multiple people.
-Spirit Mudra, DIV A. Double Spirit Control but only at the start of battle. Probably a little bit worse, but pretty much guarantees you'll have a strong first round no matter what.
-Sublime Etherlight, USE A. Inbuilt fixer!
-Spirit Inversion, USE A. Basically converts your evens into whatever you need.
-Etherlight Regalia, USE A. Like Spirit Mudra, except per-scene (Legacy User A is kiiiinda good at having whatever it needs to be stupid as fuck at all times).
-Soul Flay, Darkstalker. Mostly limited to niche builds (or LEG A's with Field CQC...), but easy overflow works for them.
-Mystic Circulation, Hanyou. Yin Style that stacks with Yin Style. If there's an ARC and a Hanyou on the same team, they can almost spirit-fix their whole team by themselves.

(Cont.)

-Evil Eye of Hexing, Demon Eyed. Basically a 'fuck you' version of Yin Style, 1/enc.
-Yin-Yang Flow, ARC A. Spirit fixing on top of Spirit Fixing, because ARC A wasn't good enough already.
-Indomitable Perseverance, ARC B. More Spirit fixing for the counterattack swordsman.
-Special Move, DRG A. Not quite traditional spirit fixing because it makes you burn spirit to do it, but close enough.
-Force Master, DRG A. Perfect spirit fixing. Nothing more to be said about it, it's exactly what you want if you lean on DRG.
-Shadowrunner's High, DRK A. Perfect spirit fixing. Again, nuff said.
-Shadow Absorb, DRK B. Overflow for using talents. It's beyond gross with Shadow Raid - you get an attack that doesn't pay cost on counter, the attack itself generates overflow, meaning it's net neutral. Just silly as hell.
-Element Force, ELE B. Another spirit fixer. Again, no comments necessary.
-Fragment of the Root, ELD B. Yup, it's another perfect fixer.
-Rollback, DIG A. Perfect fixer +15 HP. Woo.
-Hua Jin Master, GOD B. Completely ridiculous spirit fixing beyond the pale. Probably the single strongest option in this list if you can take it.
-Sacred Spirit Mudra, DIV A. The only competition for Hua Jin Master, and it doesn't take a style main to use (though it does cost two talents dedicated purely to fixing).
-Spirit Replenish, USE A. Ghetto fixer, but it gives you the dice you want, so...
-Chronos Boost, TIM A. Pretty sure you can use some Preps or Uniques at no cost with the right talent picks. That means +1 overflow, with all that implies.

(cont.)

As you can see, this is a huge list (which I admit I partly compiled for my own benefit). Spirit fixers exist in bundles, and particular attention should be paid to racial ones because you gain free racial talents every 5 levels - by level 5 EVERYONE should have at least one fixer, no exceptions. It's important to not just build for level 1 but for a reasonable leveling curve. Past first level, spirit issues should be mostly if not totally unknown, especially if you have a team that all packs fixers.

First, anything that only works out of combat you can chuck off that list. Since we're talking about spirit breach's usability in particular, this means we're already in combat, so those are already off the table or used.

So the list is more like this, and with these limitations

-Spirit control. Human only. all around good otherwise
-Aura Commandment. all around good
-Power emission 1/combat
-Moment of hope 1/combat - human only
-Epigone style. Arc slayer A only. Only works if hit
-Shadow art amplify. dark hunter B only. Only works on 1 dark hunter talent, and very few others outside of dark hunter.
-Spirit flux. Elder mage B only. All around good otherwise
-Dragonpulse convergence. Dragon lord only. Good but situational. Still can't influence into a crit.
-Dragonpulse shift. Dragon lord only. Takes timing attack rather than unique or prep. Just attack with something.
-Spirit mudra. Divine talker A only. Can only be used once at the start of combat.
-Sublime Etherlight. Legacy user A only. Once per combat only.
-Spirit inversion. Legacy user A only. Spend [E] to gain overflow. Can be good if you use lot of odd die, but useless otherwise.
-Etherlight regalia. Legacy user A only. Spirit control once per scene. Not great. You'd be better off taking aura commandment.
-Soul Flay. Dark stalker only. Scales poorly, only ever gives 1 overflow. Otherwise good, but reliant on shifts.
-Mystic circulation. Hanyou only. Yin style, word for word.
-Evil eye of hexing. Demon eyed only. Otherwise really good. Damage and overflow gain in one package. Once per combat.
-Yin-yang flow. Arc slayer A only. Helps arc slayer more than anything else. very specific, hard to use with other styles that don't use evens.
-Indomitable perseverence. Arc slayer B only. Same issue as yin-yang. Too specific.
-Special move. Dragon carrier A only. Has a pre-req. Too specific

(cont)

At the end of this i'm going to point out how specific all of these are

-Force master. Dragon carrier A Only. Ultimate, so requires a high talent if not main style. Too specific.
-Shadowrunners high. Dark hunter A Only. Has a Prereq. Too Specific.
-Shadow absorb. Dakr hunter B only. Otherwise, super good.
-Element force. Elemental adept A only. Too specific.
-Fragment of the root. Elder mage B only. Has a Pre-req. Too specific.
-Rollback. Digital sorceror A only. 15 health is good. Spirit die is too specific.
-Hua jin master. God hand B only. Ultimate. Has a Pre-req as well, which is also an ultimate.
-Sacred Spirit mudra. Divine talker A only. Makes spirit mudra usable, but uses 2 talent slots.
-Spirit replenish. Legacy user A only. Has a prereq. Actually really good. Assault is a pretty good shift. As a spirit fixer, not the best. LU has better.
-Chronos boost. Time wizard A. Ultimate. Prereq it doesn't even key off of.

Okay, so. In those 2 posts there were

>Human
>Dragon lord
>Hanyou
>Dark stalker
>Demon Eyed

>General feat

>Arc slayer A
>Arc slayer B
>Dragon carrier A
>Dark Hunter A
>Dark hunter B
>Elder mage B
>Elemental Adept A
>Digital Sorceror A
>Divine Talker A
>Legacy User A
>Time Wizard A

Total thats about a third of the total choices in style and race, and only 2 out of god knows how many common talents. Several of them are once a combat and done. Some are ultimate, so potentially take high talents. Others have prerequisites, meaning it takes at least 2 talents. Many of them only give one specific die.

Don't get me wrong, some of these are great. Used correctly, the specific ones can be pretty good too. But most of them are to steep in price to honestly justify grabbing a talent for when you can simply exhaust a couple dice or influence to much the same effect.

In terms of the spirit breach conversation, if you wanted to use that properly you would have dark hunter A as your main, meaning any ultimates are probably off the table outright.

Okay, sorry, i recounted and its closer to half. My point still stands though.

Considering your core build will simply revolve around four die-spending talents (if that), it's less steep than you think. Remember that your spirit pool is your major limiter on what moves you can pool off. Your endgame is to be able to use it offensively, or defensively (whatever you need) every single turn, in full, without fail, in a way that achieves the greatest possible effect. For example, if I'm a Legion A, I probably want to be using Focused Assault every round, applying Counterstrike if I think I can dodge, popping Callous Pursuit via Field CQC, etcetera etcetera etcetera, to maximize the amount of pain I am pumping out through a ton of boosted attacks as much as humanly possible and using Passive talents to enhance their accuracy and damage. The answer to 'this takes a specific setup isn't 'throw your hands up into the air and admit defeat' - it's to figure out the path of least resistance and cost to achieve peak efficiency and beeline for it. You CAN do this, and you should, because it beats burning dice uselessly.

Relatedly, it's one thing to spend two dice on Shadow Breach if you're a DHK A and have Shadow Eater (which is the one thing that makes it worth using - at that point Shadow Breach become an attack generator, creating at least one attack per die, possibly three attacks for two dice), but using it in other situations isn't good. The origin point of this convo was precisely bitching about how Shadow Breach is a waste of space if you're DHK A but not DHK A [Main], because it just makes anyone who takes DHK A without maining it feel kinda like a sucker until at least LV3 due to being one of very few characters with dead space on their sheets. This is why Spirit Fixing is so important to understand, and doubly so if you're making an X [Main]/DHK A, because what your backup style brings as a default is very very bad.

I say this from practice - I made a Legion A/Dark Hunter A and realizing just how *worthless* one of my automatic talents was compared to the goodness of Focused Assault was mindblowing. So I said fuckit and took Shadow Double and Focused Assault to see if I could squeeze blood out of a stone by making a build full of passives at level 1 with the only useful active talents requiring double 2s and double 5s respectively work. And...it does, largely because I took Aura Commandment to convert one die into a 'killer die' no matter the situation per round, making it super efficient. For that kind of build, using Shadow Breach is literally never worth it even at level 1 - since every die you can't use right now you WILL be able to use later, the only set of Steps that doesn't eat a 'killer die' is 3-4, and exhausted dice can't be nudged with Aura Commandment, it's literally better to sit on your dice in the hopes of scoring an extra 2 on the attack roll that you can trade for a non-2 in your pool to Shadow Double than it is to ever spend two dice on Shadow Breach. Which really puts into perspective both the earth-shattering impact of fixers given that even a mediocre one like Aura Commandment completely alters the decisionmaking involved in playing a DHK A before Shadow Eater, and just how much the existence of Shadow Double shits on Shadow Breach's cereal - you really want that talent for very obvious reasons and since you can Influence before triggering it, you want to keep dice in reserve in the hopes of squeezing out another Double this turn. The entire DHK class works so hard to sideline Shadow Breach if you don't have Shadow Eater it's not even funny.

You never specified anything about main or not. In fact, most of my arguments run under the assumption that you ARE maining Dark hunter.

So that woulda been nice to know before i threw a shitfit. You are correct that it gets much worse if you do not main Dark hunter. I'm sure there are some combinations that can make it a powerhouse though.

Second, not everyone is going to powergame their characters to that degree. First, it breaks the game making it easy mode, and second it can get plain not fun in later levels when mononoke just can't keep up. Some people will also go classes or races for thematic reasons, rather than sheer efficacy. Your argument about what is possible throws them to the wind and says "Fuck you take one of these if you wanna be good". Its not conducive to a good playing community or party.

You aren't wrong. There are tons of options. But saying that people should do something in a specifically powergamed way just feels wrong. Its about rule of cool, not rule of minmax.

stat him

Are you the guy that wanted me to stat anonymous whatever and chinchin?

Because seriously, its annoying when you just say that. I even said "Give information and whether a X or Y".

At least follow the format

Nobody's saying you need to take a specific race or style to be good (though considering uh, 3/5s of the corebook, plus a third of the non-core races can do very efficient spirit fixing, odds are you will have something), but understanding that you really DO need to think about finding fixers is kinda good. Basically I was originally bitching about how bad Shadow Breach is on its own (because it really really sucks if you took DHK A because it sounded cool as a backup and found out its base power is garbage), but later I kinda transitioned to sharing the fact I found out that yeah, fixers are pretty much core and you should buy em. You can get by without them, but you'll get outperformed and it's not hard to get some. At minimum Aura Commandment plus an 'Appearance Check/Will Check/Int Check + Set a die' power at level 5 are something anyone can get and should. That's enough fixing to get you past getting dice-screwed in round 1 so you can play your game...and that's something we should be telling everyone to do. Getting screwed out of being awesome because of RNG is not fun. Nobody likes it, so we may as well make sure people understand the steps you gotta take to prevent it, ne?

i'd argue 4/10ths. Thats neither here nor there though. Its less than half of the total for both.

i'll agree that people should probably take aura commandment if their race or style doesn't provide something. I dunno about the other part, but thats up to the player. And what race they are.

Also, fixers become moot if you have a divine talker or digital sorcerer in the party, as their first ability reduces costs or gives overflow. Meaning that the majority of the time, your fixers might be wasted talents.

Its pretty situational, but i will give you aura commandment. i actually wasn't aware of that one, and its really good. Everything else is situational.

stat pajama sam in a dress

Re: Divine Talkers and Digital Sorcs, it...kinda depends. Talkers don't really deal in fixing pools at all, Sorcs kinda do and kinda don't. They need to be Mains or otherwise their Zohar/Yetzirah methods don't work well, and on top of that, it's kinda fuzzy if you can declare a talent without having the ability to pay for its cost (if you can't, Zohar Method basically just extends a pool, it doesn't enable you to use talents you otherwise couldn't). It's wise to make sure you have fixers even if you have a Digital Sorcerer or Legion B (they have very easy overflow granting) handy if only to relieve some of the pressure off them - they have super broken attacks and trick moves they can use if they're not busy feeding a badly opped party dice so they can function, and it's worth making sure they can actually drop some bombs once in a while, IMO.

>it's kinda fuzzy if you can declare a talent without having the ability to pay for its cost

Mind giving an example of this? i'm not sure i get what you mean

That's specific mostly to Zohar Method, and is key in determining its power level. Say I have Focused Assault, to pick a random talent, and my spirit pool is 1, 2, 3, 4. I can't pay for it, but I have a DIG A in my party. Now, there's two possible scenarios here:

A) It's legal for me to declare I am using Focused Assault even if I can't pay for it (basically declaration precedes cost payment). My DIG A can use Zohar Method to satisfy the Cost of Focused Assault, so I get two attacks in one round.

B) Declaration is contingent on cost payment. Without having 5, 5, I can't ever declare I wanna use Focused Assault. In this instance, all my DIG A can do is let me save that 5,5 for a rainy day (say, for fueling a Counterstrike and a Long Range Snipe), not let me use Focused Assault if I couldn't otherwise.

I looked at the book and as far as I can tell it's really unclear which one's the case. And it kinda matters because if it's the former, Zohar Method is very good enabling for stuff like Grand Spell Invocation, Kairos Disaster, etc, but if it's the latter, everyone who relies on an X, X(, X) power REALLY needs to get fixers and/or overflow, because only a DIG B or LEG B will be able to reliably help them fire off the nukes they're packing.

based on the wording, i believe it would be fair to say you could do A.

Since it activates when you declare, and not when you pay, that means zohar method also comes before paying cost.

Which means its legit to declare it If zohar method can cover the cost. Frankly, i'd say its fair to declare it even if you can't cover the cost. Just means you can't use it.

But since [Declare] and [Pay] Are counted as distinct steps, Zohar method would come before payment proper. I say its legit.

I think it's very reasonable but there's no clear wording anywhere about this. I figure it's probably on the faq KGKAnon mentioned for Arts Stagnate, since it's something someone is bound to have noticed. Probably worth looking at whenever he has a minute I think.

>KGKAnon

Who?

also if you mean the FAQ i made, there ain't shit about it. If we get a clear ruling though, i will make an entry for it.

Kamigakarianon, the translator for the books.

I see. I just find KGK a weird acronym.

I'd just use KA. It doesn't split up the name weirdly and still gets the point across as to who it is.

No, I mean the JP FAQ by Rikizou, which is where our dear translator pulled the stuff on Arts Stagnate in the third paste from. Think of it as official rules Q&A, less 'what is this game' stuff like we do here.

Fair enough. I stand by my point that when KA weighs in on this, i will put it in the FAQ pastebin though.

The jap FAQ Doesn't do us a lot of good, after all.

This one could be neat for a dark hunter type character

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user here that asked for terms on the FAQ, thanks. They help a lot.

NP dude. If you can think of anything to add, feel free to tell me.

battle chainsaws are pretty cool, but i gotta say, i really like this hat

Kinda reminds me of Ramlethal Valentine, from Guilty Gear. Looks pretty good IMO.

I can see it.

here's another bitch with a chainsaw. bitches love chainsaws.

...

on closer inspection, that would be a hard chainsaw to wield. The danger of hitting the fuel line would suck ass.

Not if you wield it like a flail, swinging the blade by the fuel pack!

Wouldn't it have a trigger? or the line would snap?

something something artificial regalia something something strengthening something something MST3K Mantra

Rule of cool it is then. You win this round.

Lots of these are chainsaw loli's, i've noticed.

It must stimulate japan's imagination to imagine a little girl sawing stuff up.

seems legit.

This ones just momiji from touhou, but still a cool pic.

Anyone know if this would be a reasonable system to emulate Phantasy Star type characters? Or would the need for a MAG system be too heavy?

I'm not familiar with how that system works. If you can give a quick rundown, i might be able to give an equivalent.

kay, nevermind, i looked it up.

The quick answer would be to use Contractor B style to have your little friend. Unfortunately, that means everyone would need this style as a sub style. Not terribly difficult, but at the same time it can get a bit samey.

Everyone gets 2 style's on creation, and contractor B was added in one of the expansions in the RoyalTeaRed pastebin. So you could still have characters with unique fighting style's from eachother, its just that with how mag works they'd all in on their main style rather than the mag.

Another path would be to use the idea of contractor as a base and add a latent talent or two that all players have, but i'd rather work out the specifics on that after hearing what you think.

...

Pretty slow thread, but we were gone for half a week.

That makes plenty of sense, really. I appreciate your insight. I was thinking Contractor B, but wanted to make sure I wasn't being stupid. I could see Force being Elder Mage, Hunter being almost any of the available melee styles, and then Ranger would be...hmm...I'd have to look, but it makes sense.

Thats the neat thing about kamigakari, you can end up playing a unique character simply by which talents you choose to take within style's. Even if two people take the same style's, which talents they take drastically alters how they act.

So take your time to mull it over. Ranger would probably be Dark hunter A, since its the only style capable of making full move actions and still using their ranged options.

And if the math i did earlier is anything to go by, making full moves as a dark hunter is insane.

Ranger is more likely to be Legion I think - but yes, talents dramatically change who your character is, for sure.

That's something I think is really neat about the system

Legion is a pretty good possibility too.

Worst case, they can get it later if they dont take one or the other

If you do decide to homebrew theres a good amount of stuff to consider. It mostly vomes down to how you want em to work

One idea is to have it be a special accessory

Okay, i'm back at my computer so i can elaborate properly. One idea would be to have a special accessory and a special talent that works based on which accessory you currently have active.

The issue in this, over just making a set of mononoke to use, is that you'd need to balance all of these accessories and abilities, rather than simply making a mononoke to use. Balancing a players ability is much harder than balancing a mononoke outright, because players will find new and inventive ways to break your shit, no matter what it is.

Just something to think about.

Walk me through it, why would you need accessories or contractors? I've only played Phantasy Star 4 but the stuff there maps pretty neatly to basic styles.

Not the class stuff, i was going back to the mag stuff.

The regular class stuff can easily be done in the regular game.

To explain mags, they are like options, sort of. Except they usually don't do anything. They simply sit, charge, and wait to unleash their baleful wrath on whatever poor sap you set it upon.

Basically, its an item that gives a super move. At least in the online games.

That just sounds like an Arms Enhancement package that have the catch of 'can only be used all at the same time' and can be used 1/scene or combat. Considering Arms Enhancements can do things like add 15 damage to a hit, increase ranks, turn attacks into area moves and so on, that seems to fit.