Rogue takes the storm giant's axe in the face

I will certainly agree that d20 Modern (and Future, and Cybertech) were all pretty poor. It's not that the hitpoint mechanic isn't suitable. It's that the idea of social stratification into classes, which may fit our conception of Medieval periods, absolutely does not work in modern times. "Classes", as it is, doesn't fit the context, and you see that a ton of d20 systems set in modern/futuristic/apocalyptic settings (Exodus, etc) all use fairly tortured ways to get around it.

That being said, I've been surprised that 5e's not actually all that terrible, especially after the horrific shlock that was 4e.

5e is mostly just bland. It's like The Force Awakens after the prequel trilogy: not so bad as to be reviled, but not truly good either, which is probably even worse.

It's just forgettable as hell.

Everyone, make sure to send feedback to the admin, because it's clear that the janitors are not doing their job.

When thieves got xp for collecting gold.

It's almost like hit points are an abstraction that doesn't correspond 1:1 with physical damage...

Not as forgettable as the 9384902358902358 classes and feats in 3.5/PF

after the two millionth time you posted this thread

When I learned it has Resurrection as an actual, literal, mechanic.

Like, my god man. You can't revive a decayed body, you can't revive a non-functional brain, the bacteria being created by your motionless body cannot be undone. If you die for longer than 5 minutes then you are too gone to be brought back. Your mental neurons are gone, and you would have amnesia if you were brought back, not to mention you would get sick and die soon later after all the decayed tissues inside of you. Your veins would be a fucking mess too with the coagulated blood.

So fuck the whole idea of resurrection being a thing. Fucking hell, I didn't even touch how it also makes death in the whole setting meaningless.

So fuck your shite, D&D.

Considering that a lot of monsters have effects that are applied on hit such as poisoning or swallowing, the game seems to imply meat points, that being said there's nothing wrong with that if you aren't going for realism

Resurrection heals all those things, user. Quit being autistic.

>You can't
>You can't
>You can't
It's fucking magic. There are dragons and undead and weird shit. Gods are a thing. If you can't accept this, the fuck are you doing on Veeky Forums?

>how it also makes death in the whole setting meaningless
That's the only non-autistic reason to hate resurrection.

Yeah no, the ITS MAGIC I AINT GOTTA EXPLAIN SHIT doesn't work here.

I would rather just not play D&D trash, than having to do all the mental gymnastics to balance out the fact that D&D has resurrection has a thing. It's a huge immersion break.

>the ITS MAGIC I AINT GOTTA EXPLAIN SHIT doesn't work here
Why not?

We never went beyond 3rd or so level so it took me a couple of games/chars to notice it. But oh boy when I reached 7th level with my monk.

Um.

A frost giant that crits and does max damage would hit for 81 damage with a greatsword attack.

Assuming a rogue with a +1 con modifier any rogue under level 16 would be knocked unconscious by that blow. That same rogue at levels 1-6 would die instantly from massive damage.

Likewise power levels in D&D are something people fail to understand.

Level 1-5 =heroic adventurers
Level 5-10 = superhuman adventurers
Level 10-15 = demihuman adventurers (level of powerful angels and demons)
Levels 15-20 =demigod adventurers

So that level 16 rogue isn't some crafty thief at the inn, he's a demigod so being hit in the face by a storm giant wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Jesus ressurrected in 3 days, your argument is invalid.

A fire breathing lizard and a parasite-like symbiote controlling dead bodies are a shitload more reasonable than fucking resurrection.

Resurrection comes at no cost at all. If you want to revive a player, you raise him as a zombie. He is back, but he paid the price. If the resurrection brought you back but you are now mentally disabled. Yes, I could deal with that too. You revived, but you paid the price.

Resurrection as it is as no price, and is therefore shit. How can you disagree with me? I don't get it. Resurrection is wrong in every possible way you think about it.

>Level 1-5 =heroic adventurers
>Level 5-10 = superhuman adventurers
>Level 10-15 = demihuman adventurers (level of powerful angels and demons)
>Levels 15-20 =demigod adventurers
Unless you're a martial.

>level 15-20 fighter a demigod adventurer.

haha okay

>idiots falling for copypasta

These are the SAME EXACT REPLIES from the last thread. OP is literally just remaking it.

Resurrection should be explained but that explanation could allow resurrection to work on corpse more than 5 minutes old

I don't disagree with you in that resurrection is a terrible mechanic.

Buy your claim that it's unrealistic is the very pettiest thing wrong about it and it makes you look like a real weirdo for focusing in it so.

>Likewise power levels in D&D are something people fail to understand.
Its not worth anything when only 20+ is acknowledge, barely. And even more when because all classes have levels instead of finite levels, you get the situation where a lot of them can't even scale.

Nevermind that Skill points for skills(Climb, Craft, Traps) doesn't scale, except for a few exceptions(Hide).
Like, Hide is the only scaling skill. A object with a hide check of 80 is impossible to find, due no signature of any kind(smell, vision, air pressure, etc)

It's copy pasta I agree with though

>Resurrection comes at no cost at all
Money and 1 less level permanent.
If he's 1st level it becomes -2 Con permanent instead.

>Money and 1 less level permanent.
So, the same penalty I get from skipping a session.

Oh, the pain!

>You get 1 level in one session
Can I sign with your group?

Also, unless you're high level as fuck, ressurrection spells only work on bodies who have been dead in less than a couple of minutes.

>When did I realize these threads were cancer?
Immediately. Saged.

>DnD is good
>Rifts is the best game

2/10, made me reply

When you play DnD, just use the rulebook as a suggestion. DnD is awful, and a badly made game. It's a fine story-telling vehicle, but it fucking sucks as a game.

>poisoning
At least for that, you don't need to chop someone's head off to inject a little venom into them.

True but it does imply the character was physically injured

>Hurr durr ressurection should work on bodies that have been dead more than a couple of minutes!
>But user, ressurrection doesnt' work on bodies that have been dead more than a couple of minutes
>No because I use the rules as a guide so in my games they don't
So basically your complaint is that you're stupid?

shouldn't*

Hold up.

Since when did Resurrection only work in such a small time scale? It can do like ten years per caster level!

In the exact example I gave I showed how a high level rogue could be hit by the strongest possible blow of a storm giant and survive. That's demigod tier stuff. Not to mention all the other impossible things that rogue can do with their stats and feats.

Casters are mostly that bit too strong at high levels because of the sheer broad range of spells( in part due to endless.splat books). If you drastically tone down the number of spells available they're fine. Even without doing that caster supremacy is mostly just a whitebox made up meme. There's plenty of limits on casters that martials don't suffer (namely being able to use their abilities indefinitely) , the main problem.is that GM's forget about these limits and GM's also let players playing casters abuse rules because magic when they shouldn't be able to.

>first real rpg experience is 3.5 D&D with family
>run 8 year campaign for them
>make new friends
>start playing Pathfinder with them
>they make loads of dumbass characters
>now I hate pathfinder

It's strange how sheltered I was. Now I know the truth amd can never go back.

>7th level spell AKA 13th level caster
At that level you're basically a demigod and shit over all martials
Lower level revive spells only work for small time scales

>in part due to endless.splat books
Actually 99% of the broken spells come straight out of core

And if you go by rules (4-5 encounters per day) a not mentally handicapped player who's playing a caster has more than enough spells per day

Honestly, the classes in D20 Modern was one of its best points. They represented broad areas of expertise that are easily understood (for the most part, the devoted hero sticks out as a bit strange) and could be easily combined to create diverse characters. The advanced classes represented more specialized, but still fairly broad areas of expertise that were likewise understood.

My main gripes with it would be the combat system (which HP is a part of) and its skill system.

That's not strictly true. Like some of the absolute worst offenders were splat spells. Like Shivering Touch or the Celerity series.

Trying to make a glorified set of houserules and call it a heartbreaker. I discovered I don't like D&D, I don't like spell lists, I don't like the people I know, and I suspect they don't like me

Splat books just ape core. So Splat books just add more skills that scale just as badly as Core skills.
Martials that is Fighter 2.0 or worse. Expansion classes that are really cool, for like 5 shitty levels(just like core).
Spell list is just a expansion of what already exists in core.

Why is everyone in here talking about 3E/Pathfinder?

Haven't we acknowledged that those versions are shit?

I thought we would have moved on to complaining about 5E by now.

Because the basic problems tend to translate across all editions, contrary to what the OSRfags will say.

>"The enemy attacks. Critical hit. You take XX damage."
>"Okay. I still have YY hit points remaining."

>"The frost giant bears down on its tiny foe, sweeping its axe in a wide arc before it. Though the Rogue is quick, the giant catches him on the side with the axe blade! Critical hit!"
>"Mere centimeters from striking a vein!! The wound is deep, but Rogue manages to roll with it, and continues on, though he clutches at his bleeding side."

The problem is in the storytelling, not the mechanics.

I dunno friend, I see a lot of people complaining that martials are useless and that isn't consistent across editions at all.

this user gets it

So a critical hit is still just a relatively glancing blow?
Do giants just never hit anything directly? Are they clumsy as fuck?

Anything that doen't kill you or leaves you to die bleeding in D&D is a glancing blow, scratchs, non serious injury, flesh wound, etc. Also, massive damage, that rogue should had to roll Fort because when you get more than certain amount of damage in one blow it means is serious.

d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/massaveDamageThresholdsAndResults.htm

So probably OP is not using this rule but complaining about rules

As mentioned before in the thread, characters who can take that much damage are basically superhuman. How they survive that hit depends on the character themselves. A rogue almost dodges what would have been a fatal blow otherwise, an abjurer's shields hold up enough to soften the blow but they are still wounded, a knight or barbarian just tanks that shit.

As clumsy as the Predator, the Alien, Jason, etc, when you're the main char you have some perks

>Determining the area of injury before damage is dealt

wew lads

Dragons make literally no sense whatsoever, for a good half dozen reasons on the surface that only multiply as you go down; the same goes for ALL forms of the undead that aren't literally walking fungus. You're not talking about 'realism', you're talk about tunnel vision 'simulationist' verisimilitude, which is what every single simulationist is talking about all the time.

Did you not read? In that example, the giant makes a deep wound, but it's not instantly lethal. The rogue, though still standing, has taken substantial damage and probably can't take another hit like that again. And the giant isn't clumsy or incompetent; the rogue, with his many hit points, is depicted as being adept at *avoiding* lethal damage. If the giant were fighting a lesser foe, he may well have bifurcated them.

Also, don't forget to sage this garbage thread.

That's why I said it was a "relatively" glancing blow.
A serious wound for the rogue, a glancing blow from the giant's perspective.
Seems dumb that even when he gets a crit he's incapable of landing a decent hit.

Seems to me the obvious interpretation of events from how the mechanics work is just that the rogue tanks the blow, superhuman as that is.

Sneak attack users must be retarded for doing glancing hits on targets that aren't even attempting to dodge.

It's almost like the only interpretation that consistently makes sense is meat points.

It's also a very good reason. I recently became a lich, and it's a huge downside since I take 1d10 days to regenerate, rather than being resurrected the next day.

To be fair, Martials *can* be optimized in disgusting ways that make melee combat irrelevant, or allow them to punch so far above their weight mages of equivalent level couldn't make SR checks even with greater spell penetration.

Worse yet, sneak attack users at lower levels are easily capable of missing people who aren't aware of them and not wearing armor.

That way they can only beat other "martial" monsters, you know, the melee combat kind, but not caster monsters

Actually they can easily. An optimized martial wins initiative, teleports next to the enemy, and kills them the same round.

>inb4 'but teleporting is maguk, martials can't have any maguk at all, not even items'

Getting pounce is a pretty large priority on optimization, yes. That or ranged combat.

Basically the ability to full attack anything you can see immediately for ten times its' total HP.

Eh, once you're at the level where you can survive a critical hit from a giant, it's all superhuman. Either the Rogue is superhumanly fast, lucky, or tanky, or some combination. In any case, he manages to survive an attack that would sunder most people without even slowing that axe down. It's just a narrative preference at that point, how you'd want to describe it. The giant lands a solid hit, and the rogue takes it, the giant is fast but the rogue is just fast enough. The description may vary, but result of the critical hit is identical.

>Dazed, reeling, about to break.

>people are still big enough faggots to bump these threads
What the fuck is wrong with you all? For fuck's sake go make some Excuse Me, Commissar threads if you have to shitpost.

Why do you hate fun?

Why are you playing a game that requires imagination when you have none?

>you didn't enter sage in the options field
What the fuck is wrong with you?

>An optimized martial wins initiative
Kek
Taking into account that there're spells that give you bonuses, familiars that give you bonuses, etc, I doubt it.

It really isn't particularly unlikely at all.

Most monsters don't have a really good spell selection, I never seen a monster with nerveskitter (+5 to ini) or a familiar that gives you +4 to Ini, etc. In case of Martial PC vs Caster PC sure, martialwill NEVER win initiative, but against monster is not impossible.

>Assuming a rogue with a +1 con modifier
I know these threads are retarded, but outside of rolling for stats, who ever does this? Yeah yeah, next there will be the guy who cites 2e or earlier, but after 3e only idiots would start with con as low as 12. That's practically suicide right there

>15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
Lets assume you need Dex, so 15, and Str so 14, then you will only have a +1 to Con from either 13 or 12. Not that easy at char gen.

The only edition where it's a true exception is 4th. In OSR they're just a blob of hitpoints with an attack and could be run as a script, while not useful, they are pretty pointless, in 5th edition they're not useless, but they're certainly well behind casters.

After reading the ruleset of AD&D. Then years later friend handled me 3.0 and said "Either my English is not good enough, or this is even bigger mess than AD&D"

you should wait for damage first before describing the attack

And you replied so well . Whats wrong with either of them?

Allegedly. I'm still waiting on his long form birth certificate. Why won't they release it to the public?

@54036844

>You cant fiddle with hp number to make them what you want? You cant use your imagination?
i think OP takes it to far but this is terrible. why even have rules at all? why use funny dice? just roll d6 everytime something is in doubt and the GM will rule based on what you rolled.

this sucks. we want systems to model a fictional reality, even when we're dealing with gamist systems like D&D.

>How can you disagree with me? I don't get it.
topest of keks.
>Resurrection is wrong in every possible way you think about it.
no, in every way YOU think about it.

Are these threads just shitpost threads or are there this many retards? Holy fuck some of the posts on this board betray a critical lack of intelligence.

The people who think Resurrection removes consequences of death haven't actually read up on or thought about how it works and how hard it actually is to get the ingredients.

The game is explicitly heroic fantasy, like an action movie such as Die Hard, any Jason Statham flick, or other such ones. This means that blows that would kill a normal person are instead merely slight inconveniences or mild injuries.

The literal autist who thinks Resurrection can't work because of Earth physics is the worst one here. Like holy shit, its a fucking magic spell which restores the flesh and then reinserts your soul. Its explicitly not realistic.

It's literally four trolls. Most of this thread is actually just them reposting copypasta from previous threads.

This far in the game, they're basically just hoping people don't call them out on it, because only idiots would be stupid enough to try arguing with them.

When i run campaigns I make the whole "Resurrection is only deity intervention" shtick. As in just being a good boy for your deity wont get you resurrected, but if over a long period of campaign time you have toleplayed well and your death aligns with having been doing something that is within your Deity's portfolio, it may see fit to, and only once, grant resurrection as a reward.

I was a Cleric of Apsu and i had the healing and protection domains. In town I worked as a free healer, treating the sick, the poor and the downtrodden. When I saved up my hard earned adventuring gold I had bought a building and with fellow priests from the church turned it into a soup kitchen/hostel that the poor and homeless could utilize free of charge. I always ensured my companions were free of affliction and always ready for what came next. Despite being a religious character I never encroached on the beliefs of other characters, even if their faiths did not agree with mine. For over a gear I played like this and when the time came for our party to make a stand against the BBEG and his evil army, we knew we were only buying time for the city to retreat. 1/2

Cool houserule, thanks for sharing.

When I was out of spells our party, for lack of better terms, started gettong hamfisted. There were too many enemies, and the boss was too strong. Our tactivs would buy a turn at best. Resurrection was outlawed in this game, so players had to actually think before acting, and recklessness was rarely seen. But when we knew the party was going to be cut off from our own retreat, I used the last of my spells to help the party escape.

I stayed behind, and as if to buy them even a few more turns I challenged the boss to single combat. I was garbage with a sword, and only had a mediocre AC. There wasn't a percentage that i stood to win this battle. I bought them three turns. In the name of Apsu I bought my friends three turns. I bought the people three turns and those three turns saved countless thousands of lives, including that of my party.

When my spirit was to pass on I met with my god. He weighed my actions. That I performed his will without bringing slander to his name, that I never expected or desired recompense for my actions, that I merely wanted to make the world better, even if only for a few people, to Apsu it was selfless. Noble. I was given a second chance, the only time my GM allowed resurrection.

Best damn group I ever had.

Im saying if he gms and hp seems to much adjust it across the board. Not mid fight arbitrarily.

Gonna pirate your idea.