Flames of War General /fowg/

They're both lame, it's not like we don't spy on each other and just copy what the other is doing, the difference in technology is minimal. It's more down to doctrinal differences.

>Battlefront: "We're gonna try to revitalize mid war!"
>Also Battlefront: "All existing mid war armies are obsolete and have no rules buy our two quasi-historical lists with maybe ten models"

They should have done late war first. As much as I hate to admit it (because I like North Africa) but if they wanted to translate it into cash they should have done 44-45.

Eeh, I wouldn't go that far; soviets had some deficiencies in electronics, and took weirdly long to put proper thermals on stuff, but then a lot of NATO was stuck with the 105mm and relatively weak missiles and big, heavy tanks, too.

Saying it's a difference in doctrine underplays the fact technology often factors heavily into doctrine.

Yeah but which came first?

Soviets wanted quantity over quality, does this mean they sacrificed thermals? Maybe.

They should have released rules that let you play your existing mid war armies

Yeah, this is the biggest thing. I was thinking "I like TY, I have italians, maybe I'll demo some games". Then NOPE FUCK YOU WAIT 'TIL 2019.

True, parcelling it out just feels a bit contrived.

Why didn't they just make four books that cover all the units of the four powers in the desert? They all have models just some of them are old. Feels like they're falling into GW's hate for 3rd parties, they're cutting their nose off to spite their face.

>Feels like they're falling into GW's hate for 3rd parties, they're cutting their nose off to spite their face.
Especially because, really, no third party is gonna do shit like make plastic Italian tanks. There wasn't enough demand before, there's not gonna suddenly be enough now. The only plastic they're losing out on with a big full spectrum release is early model shermans. They've already got plastics of the major tanks for the russians, the only other country that really needs it, on their end. They could also have delayed it by a few months to have the early shermans ready because that's the only weakpoint, and then BOOM. Done. No problems with third parties stealing your hype. Don't attempt to cover everything exhaustively, just give everyone enough to get by on.

Instead we get just enough to get by on for two desert factions of four, and everyone else is left holding their butts.

>Instead we get just enough to get by on for two desert factions of four, and everyone else is left holding their butts.
Enough for one desert faction and one half of another. If you have an infantry or infantry tank list you're currently fucked.

Oh, Fuck, ....this.

100 times, this.....

>truth.

my point-of-view is this: I love this game. i have played since 2008. but for god sake, don't force me to try to defend a game where new players are shown what is essentially a conversation manual for 80% of the game, and then have to tell them with a straight face: "this is a good game"

i literally have this problem. it's either play 1 of 2 armies in Mid-War Africa or i'm doing patchwork.

My 2 cents.

hell, have 2 solid dollars

>conversation

conversion. fuck, and i do mean fuck, auto-correct.

2 nukes wasn't enough. They should have stolen Bomber Harris from the RAF and put him on japan duty.

is this el alamein

I get the feeling mid war may have been a test run, now that it looks like it's failed I would assume since each period now appears to have it's rulebook that the releases of the other two periods will be better thought out.

>implying the firebombing of Tokyo didn't make Dresden look like a boyscout campfire.

>implying bomber harris wouldn't have done more
If Dresden was as wooden as Tokyo, the ash would have been compressed into coal from subsequent bombings.
Also it's a meme, don't take it too seriously, just toss more nukes at japan.

this is Veeky Forums

we commence kawaii operations, gruppefuher...

Except that we'll be in MW for until 2019 and in the desert seemingly halfway through 2018.

>inb4 impatient kiddies can't wait for more releases
>inb4 just play V3

I mean honestly the issue isn't starting with Africa or the release schedule. It's the lack of variety in the releases. Everything is centered around the new plastic. The card model of ripping content out of the books is a bit dishonest. If they stay the course the Eastern Front is going to be a mess.

God you're so impatient why no-

Well, you can always go back and pl-

..hmmmm...

We could always play Bolt Action?

This isn't strictly FoW related but I remember running into a picture of a german-captured T26 with "Tiger II" painted on the side in one of these threads.

I can't find it anywhere and was wondering if one you people could help?

>all this negativity

I'll just be over here enjoying my BADWRONG FUN.

Nobodies shitting on V4 as a ruleset but the release has been bungled somewhat.

If you want to play 1942 Brits vs. 1942 Germans then it's good.

Battlefront has made some mistakes in their execution of things lately.

Or perhaps more accurately, Battlefront has been Battlefront.

But I've kinda reached a certain level of zen towards that. I've come to expect it, so I'm hardly surprised by it anymore. Still disappointed by it, but no longer surprised.

As for me enjoying the game, I'd even go so far as to say I've been enjoying the Late War conversion.

Some things play slightly differently than how I used to play, but I'm willing to learn and to adjust my play style accordingly.

I don't get worked up over it. It's a game I play to escape from real life stress.

I don't need to have the game or Battlefront's business decisions become something to stress out over.

*shrug*

But maybe that's just me.

>We could always play Bolt Action?

Isn't Bolt Action actually a worse game? Even more full of Hollywood style war movie nonsense than even FoW has been accused of?

yea but v4 is giving it a run for it's money

As much as I dislike V4, I'd still play it over Bolt Action.

Battlegroup is fun. At the risk of coming across as a shill, I've been watching a YouTube channel called The Acceptable Casualties. They've got some AARs for the game, as well as discussion of the rules, a long video about the differences between it and FoW that I recommend, and they've just started a series that aims to give viewers a more in-depth look at the mechanics of BG. Small channel that needs polish but their hearts in it and the audio quality is decent so you don't find yourself wanting to seppuku all over your keyboard.

And if Battlegroup isn't your thing - WW2 rulesets are aplenty in the world and you've already got the minis for 'em. Or you could just come play VASL with me. I'm not lonely.

Yeah, it's pretty much WW2:The Movie:The Game. I have had some good fun playing it. Every game I play of Bolt Action doesn't come down to time, unlike V4.

I'll check it out. I think I have tried to watch some of their Flames videos, but they were super slow paced. Willing to give them another shot though.

>If they stay the course the Eastern Front is going to be a mess.
Eastern Front has less stuff, at least. We have Panzer III and IVs, Tigers, and Panthers in plastic, and we have T-34s in plastic. We might get a KV in plastic, but I'd expect the T-70 is going to remain a light tank in resin, if they show up at all. That's all pretty easy to fit into an afrikakorps style book. And it's not like we'll be missing options, either, given BF have historically covered the eastern front in incredibly broad strokes. There's nothing like the indian rifles to actually be removed in the first place.

I would laugh if the first soviet snowflakes come on cards.

It's the year 2020. You are furiously opening your new Snowflakes of War booster packs for the Eastern Front. There it is. The holographic Comrade Stalin card. You run your eyes over the artwork while you rejoice at your luck. You read the text. "Comrade Stalin: Add one addition company of FC riflemen to your reserves." Tears roll down from your eyes as you gaze at the horde of soft plastic strelkovy in front of you. Their featureless faces stare back at you. You hear a voice in your head. "Quantity has a Quality all of its own." All is quiet for a moment until the cellophane crinkles as you instinctively reach for the next expansion pack. You manage to creak out one final phrase before you the new cards take you under.

"C-cheers, Phil."

So what late war books are actually current/not yet in a compilation. It's so fucking confusing.

Compilations:
Overlord/Atlantik Wall
Road to Rome/Fortress Italy
Market Garde/ Bridge by Bridge
Red Bear/Grey Wolf
Battle of the Bulge/Ardennes Offensive
(Gung Ho/Banzai - they do have LW points costs as well as PW/EW)

Softbacks:
Bridge at Remagen
Desperate Measures
Nachtjäger*
Berlin

*Nachtjäger means Night Hunter

At least they're still trying, and we know they're real people, even if Phil was abused by communists as a child.
I'd rather that than profitbot 5000

I laughed.
Then I got a bit sad.

...

I put the video speed up...

We'll need Panzer IIIs and IVs with shürzen, a Panthe D (not -G), Panzer III M, Panzer IV G and H, etc, etc. So, they'd have to add quite a bit.

Still, they should have started with EF this time. But its BF: they always do the same thing they did last time.

It's not even that.

Midwar as a whole, and North Africa specifically, haven't been updated since V2.

And even that was just a quick adjustment from V1.

So I can completely understand why they decided to restart V4 in the desert.

It's long overdue.

But it always did feel like a bit of a sideshow compared to the Eastern Front.

Kursk or Stalingrad might have been a slightly more exciting starting point than El Alamein.

But either way, they still had to start with midwar. They ignored it for an entire edition or more.

Wait, Phil's from eastern europe? That actually explains it.

Imagine if, instead of making Panthers, they'd just make a wholly improved version of Panzer IV's

Still would've lost the war.

That pic, is it historicly accurate or fanfiction? It looks great and I'd like to paint my captured panzers like that if so.

Does that mean I need to reprint my red primered Panther guns? Reeeeeeee

According to Spielberger's book about Pz IV tank series, the design proposal was put forth and was intended to be the Panzer IV Ausf. H.

However, it would have reduced the production quantity (which is odd reason considering the need of manpower and increasing the survivability of tank crews due to catastrophic losses in the east), so the Panzer IV Ausf. H we know was made instead.

>I've been enjoying the Late War conversion

Well the problem is that people is trying to enjoy Mid War, the thing that was supposed to be revived with all the V4 shit, but just make all the Mid Wars lovers hate it because they can't use half of their shits.

It is really good rule wise when only infantry fights each other. But Artillery and Vehicles rules are still shit and 28mm is the shittiest scale for more than 1 or 2 tanks and on board artillery.

Battlegroup is, in general, a much better game than FoW.

Wait, so that is why Phil hate soviets stuff in general? because it was molested by a turbo slav T-Potato in the ass?

It was pretty much impossible to make an even more improved version of the Panzer IV, since its suspension was at its limits and the turret ring was small for an upgun.

The Panthers were the best option compared to all the prototypes and heavy tank the Germans were trying to make.

The axis defeat in WW2 was a culmination of a series of mistakes. You can point the major points that tipped the balance however.
>not invading malta
>ignoring Enigma being compromised
>Yugoslavian campaign
>Italians being dumbfucks who Germany had to rescue from getting destroyed by goddamn Greece
>Hitler being a salty faggot towards Kriegsmarine
>Hitler ordering any and all research being halted that can't make practical use of itself for the invasion of USSR
>ignoring leningrad
>entering Stalingrad
>producing over ten tank models with none of them having inter-changeable parts
>commencing Battle of Kursk even thought aerial reconnaissance revealed that the russians knew what was coming weeks in advance

There's a much simpler reason.
They're Germans.

The sloped armor would have simplified and reduced the weight due to decreased amount of invidual steel plates, and that way decreased the stress on the suspensions while at the same time greatly improving protection.

This was in 1943, which these upgrades would have been sufficient for.

As for the turret ring and armament, there were various turret design proposals later on that would have allowed the installation of the same 7.5 cm KwK 42 L/70 cannon the "Panther" tank was armed with.

Pic related, one of the planned turret upgrades for Panzer IV Ausf. J in 1944-45

>producing over ten tank models with none of them having inter-changeable parts

The only reason why i sometimes "feels bad" about germany losing the war, is that if only the war ended around 1946-8, the Entwicklung series would have been real.

So today i would be able to shitpost about which tank was pretty much the first MBT the T-54 or the E-50.

>The sloped armor would have simplified and reduced the weight due to decreased amount of invidual steel plates
> there were various turret design proposals later on that would have allowed the installation of the KwK 42 L/70.

Wrong search it, the sloped version of the Panzer IV was scraped because it made the hull front heavier and pushed the suspesion to its limits, a problem that the Jagdpanzer IV had even without turret.

And the turret in the pic is the Panther Schmalturm, there was supposed to be project in the late 44 to mount that turret in Panzer IV J chasis but it was considered impossible because it was too heavy and they were producing more Panthers than Panzer IV by the late 44.

>producing over ten tank models with none of them having inter-changeable parts
It's actually worse than that, changes were snuck into the assembly line so often that there was no guarantee that, say, the part for one Panther would work on another one of allegedly the same mark.

The biggest mistake for Germany was ever starting the war at all.

>The Panthers were the best option compared to all the prototypes and heavy tank the Germans were trying to make.
The panther was originally about half it's weight; the proposed vehicle it originally was would've been on par with late Shermans, and for a medium tank an M4A3 is pretty good. Nazis just love over-engineering.

Honestly, Germany did far better than could reasonably be expected throughout the war. They had to repeatedly get lucky, not repeatedly fail. France or Britain mobilise earlier, Germany's fucked. Allies realise the Ardennes attack is the main thrust, Germany's fucked. Soviet response isn't the total disaster it was, Germany's fucked.

If you look at everything that had to go right, it's amazing they made it to 1945.

Panther didn't suffer from that, actually, but it was a big issue with Tigers and Panzer III/IVs. Panther was made in an assembly line, whereas most German tanks were made by craftspeople in-place.

If France had gone more towards mechanised rather than emplacement defences shit would have gone a lot worse for the Germans. They considered it too but war weariness (Among other reasons) had them choose the option they believed would deter attack rather than help them win a fight.

That plus you have to remember strategic bombing was seen as being like nuclear bombing is today.

Let's talk some hypothetical tank history here. What if burgers went with an inline engine instead of the massive radial they put on shermans? The tank would have been much lower than the almost high as a KT monster that it was since it wouldn't have required all the wasted space for the tilted shaft, probably would have been slightly longer like in the A4 model and much lighter. What engines did have avaible the brugers at the time? Would have been even faster? Better armored? Maybe even cheaper? How would have evolved to fit the 76mm and better armor and suspensions in the later stages of the war?

The Americans had an attitude of trying to utilize things that their industry already produced.

So if it **wasn't** the engine that they actually used in real life, then it might have been something like a high power truck engine, or maybe an engine from a farm tractor or something similar. Something that could provide enough raw horsepower and torque to move something as massive as a tank.

The engine they actually used was probably the best thing they had available at the time, while they worked on developing something better.

Oh god I hope this works...

>salty af

That's the Finns for you

Is this salt masking?
Because if it's snow effects then...

Salt masking.
I'll post results tomorrow

good luck

wasn't the comet the first proto MBT
with the next british thing being the first proper mbt or am i just an idiot?

Thank you

any particular reason you went with a 152 over a 122?

No, he's a Wehraboo and a NATOboo.

youtube.com/watch?v=I0AxrOUJ62E

Yep, the Chieftain was the first true MBT

Good idea salting down your ISU-152. Hopefully this way they will stay preserved for V5.

A lot of the concepts for what would evolve into the MBT can be seen in the Panther, but it's more the grandfather of the MBT than the father of the MBT.

I'd say the centurion was the first (unsuccessful) try at an MBT

How was it unsuccessful? It served in countless armies and influenced tank design in at least five different countries. Hell there are still (Highly Modified) Centurions still in service today.

I didn't say the tank was unsuccessful but would you say that it ticks off all necessary parameters to qualify as a MBT ?

I would say it would. Fast enough to get places it needs to be, once they were off the 17pdr it was capable of engaging anything, and enough armour to shrug off most Anti-Tank guns that weren't big immobile monsters like the 17pdr and the big 88s.

I'd say the Centurion with the 20 pounder is a better example, as the 17 pounder's HE was never really good enough for the MBT role.

The centurion is commonly considered the first real MBT, yeah.

>(unsuccessful)
You are not worth wasting the tea it would require to give you the appropriate burns.

All these tea sippers.

>Sipping tea
>Not drinking it in large gulps

You make me sick user

> All these cola sippers.

Basically, destined to fail in their quest to destroy Europe.

When will they learn?

I gulp my tea tho.

Joke's on you, I'm no Amerifat.

It's finnish. They only get 152s.

>destined to fail
>Eurozone austerity
que?