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What the fuck do you mean? If you don't like a game just don't play it.

I need to convince the rest of you morons to not play it as well.

Fuck you I'll play what I want to. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you have to make everyone not like it.

>An encouragement
Yes, because just disregarding suggestions in the rulebook then getting angry about the fact you did is just silly.

>an optional rule
Not actually an optional rule. Training to gain levels is just a rule in the system not many folks use, but isn't not under one of the optional rule sets.

>a 3.5 rule because you falsely assume all D&D is 3.5
Coup de Gras exists in more editions than just 3.5.

>, and supporting the fact that a level 20 fighter doesnt get any better at defending himself, only at attacking
Not even sure what you mean here, this changes so much from edition to edition that arguing this statement is pointless. 4e fighters are far better at not getting hit at high levels.

None of the things in OP apply in any edition of D&D before 3rd.

>No skills
>Wizards gain experience out of casting spells and researching
>Fighter can just coup himself: this one's true even in later editions
>All poison is insta-kill

What alternatives would you recommend?

Just play GURPS, guys.

What said. GURPS is pretty great.

>Training to gain levels is just a rule in the system not many folks use

You have to pay to level up after earning enough XP.... FROM KILLING THINGS. You can't get XP otherwise, except from bullshit GM fiat story awards, which the system doesn't have any rules for because the game is so combat-focused that 90% of the rules are about that. And Coup De Grace in 5e does not exist. If you find it, let me know, because my group and I spent about 20 minutes looking for it in vain.

>4e doesn't exist
>5e doesn't exist

You are one dumb fucking moron.

Depends on what you want out of a game. What style of fantasy are you looking for? Don't listen to , GURPS isn't that great.

>You are one dumb fucking moron.
I said BEFORE 3rd edition, not after, you moron.

>You can't get XP otherwise
In AD&D and earlier you gained most of your experience by finding treasure.

Don't listen to , GURPS is that great.

>which the system doesn't have any rules for because the game is so combat-focused that 90% of the rules are about that.
Except it does, they're just seldom used. They're not even optional rules, you're just pretending they don't exist.

The thing about D&D though is that it can do ALL styles of fantasy. How can your niche games compare?

I'm convinced I'm the only actual person who actually plays GURPS and the rest of you are just memeing.

Unfortunately it can't really. Different editions of D&D can each do 1 or 2 subgenres of fantasy, but none give you the whole spectrum. Other dedicated games are also better at focusing in on a subgenre often. WHFRG for instance is good for a grittier style of game than pretty much all editions of D&D.

>I'm convinced I'm the only actual person who actually plays GURPS and the rest of you are just memeing.
I'd love to play GURPS if I just got a group going.

Who are you playing the game with, anyway? You can't possibly be the only actual person to actually play the game, unless you run shit for yourself. How does that even work?

>I'm convinced I'm the only actual person who actually plays GURPS and the rest of you are just memeing.
New IP here, GURPS is great. Unless you don't like GURPS, which is sad, but whatever. Strokes and folks.

I used to play GURPS a lot but my group split off for various reasons and I have to play other, inferior games now. And I have to learn a new system everytime someone wants to do something different, bah.

Suppose we could get a group going?

Dungeon World. It's fast, with a strong core mechanic built to enhance the story, not restrict it like the shitty D&D mechanics. Failure in Dungeon World is actually interesting, and all of the abilities are codified into the core mechanic to make it fast, fun, and easy to use. The combat is also much, much better. A dragon doesn't need 300 hit points to be challenging like it does in D&D, it can do stuff that's actually terrifying, like rip a character's arm off. Also, armor is damage reduction so no more of this "less likely to hit, but still does full damage if it does hit" bullshit. The monster stats are incredibly light, character creation is extremely fast and fluid, with just as many options as D&D when you consider that most of D&D is trap options. There is no powergaming in Dungeon World, just a fast story-based game that still has the mechanics from D&D that you love (hit points, classes, etc) but with much stronger mechanics that lead to a more fulfilling roleplaying experience.

My last session of Dungeon World, my human fighter wrapped a vampire in a bear hug and wrestled him out a window into the castle moat. That is real roleplaying, not babby D&D shit where you have to make two different rolls and then have some autist look up how far you can move about while grappling. Dungeon World is about fun and good story, not rules and combat bullshit.

Check it out: www.dungeonworldsrd.com

>In AD&D and earlier you gained most of your experience by finding treasure.

So? That means a wizard has to find treasure to learn new spells. Even if he has access to them, he still has to level up by getting gold pieces.

>wizard is part of rich family
>his father dies
>he inherits 2000 gold and levels up
>suddenly he instantly gets better at spellcasting
>even if he hasn't cast a spell in 2 years

Yeah, D&D is full of shit.

Oh good, one of the three games literally worse than D&D.

There are a lot more than three games worse than D&D.

>I said BEFORE 3rd edition, not after, you moron.

Yeah and you're the only one who brought it up. I don't know what the fuck you're even talking about when I pointed out twice that in 5e you cannot commit suicide without at least 4 crossbow shots against yourself.

Is coup de grace no longer a thing in 5e?

That example is not actually how it works, go back and reread the rule book. Inheritance doesn't give you XP.

It only counts if they find the treasure in an adventure. The books specifically point out that inheritances or other profits do not give experience.

Have you ever actually played D&D at all?

Stop bumping the thread you stupid niggers

It's not. The closest you can get is the conditions under Paralyzed and Unconsciousness, but even those don't have a saving throw versus death. 5e is fucking retarded.

>FATAL
>Synnibar
>All Flesh Must Be Eaten
>Mouse Guard / Burning Wheel
>Project Biomodus

Only RPGs I can think of that are worse than D&D. Oh yeah except that Via The New Lands game that isn't even real, and that Atlansia game that's like 500 pages long. Runequest is also pretty shitty but it's not as bad as D&D.

Like you can't just automatically stab someone to death in their sleep? I find that hard to believe.

>read the 1980s AD&D players manual written in autistic lawyer speak

I'd rather not, thanks. That said, a wizard still needs to go out and find treasure in dungeons (and thus almost certainly kill some monsters) to be able to learn new spells. This makes zero sense.

Burning Wheel is pretty good at what it does. I'd take it off that list and replace it with Savage Worlds.

>mouseguard
>bad

okay now I know you're baiting in a bait thread

Ah, wouldn't that be nice.

Nope, it doesn't. That's the quality of product WotC produces today. And people eat that shit up. It's fucking baffling. I guess they were taught not to put effort into mechanics after all of the 3.5e fags honked, wailed, and moaned about 4e.

A T-Rex's perception score rivals an Elder god's

Oh and stats for elder gods.

>It only counts if they find the treasure in an adventure.

>wizard adventures to find his old rich parents
>slits their throats
>suddenly becomes able to cast Time Stop and Meteor Storm

How is that any better?

Nope. Because that would be unfun if a character could be killed in their sleep, and if the rosties and normals and video-game casuals that play 5e lost their character, they would cry and stop buying D&D products and Shekelsteins of the Coast would lose money and that would be bad.

>If you find it, let me know, because my group and I spent about 20 minutes looking for it in vain.

It happens automatically if a target is paralyzed or unconscious.

>Attack rolls against the creature have advantage.
>Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

Why do you put so much effort into bitching about a game you don't understand? You're like a guy watching soccer and loudly yelling "Hey! That guy who keeps standing in the goal used his hands, that's cheating! I hate this game!"

flame princess, wraeththu, cthulhutech, HYBRID, RaHoWa, SenZar, and a lot more.

DnD is shit, now fuck off

>I'd rather not, thanks.
Well, if you don't even feel bothered to do your research, how can you argue about anything in AD&D?

> That said, a wizard still needs to go out and find treasure in dungeons (and thus almost certainly kill some monsters) to be able to learn new spells. This makes zero sense.
A player character wizard does, because the game is all about going to dungeons and finding treasure. Maybe if he locked himself into a tower and studied he could gain levels outside this, but then there wouldn't be much of a game going, would there? Why would they waste pages to make rules for that sort of boring stuff?

Savage Worlds is shit, but it's hardly as bad as Burning Wheel. By the way, "it's good at what it does" is hardly an argument when what its design goals are complete shit. Otherwise I could make a game about shitting and it's goal is to be to take a shit, and I put instructions out on shitting and charge 45 bucks for it, and you can't say it's a bad game because "it's pretty good at what it does!!"

Fuck off with that nonargument.

Pretty much this. Don't listen to system hipsters Dungeon world is fun if you like rules light systems.

>Nope. Because that would be unfun if a character could be killed in their sleep, and if the rosties and normals and video-game casuals that play 5e lost their character, they would cry and stop buying D&D products and Shekelsteins of the Coast would lose money and that would be bad.
90% of Veeky Forums throws a shitfit at the idea of their character dying for any reason, to the point they want the GM to lie or ignore the dice to ensure they survive.

In earlier editions, you also had to actually find or research spells to add them to your spellbook, rather than waking up with them overnight like in 3.5

You didn't exactly give an argument either.

Now, if all those systems are shit, what do you consider good? hard mode: no GURPS

What's so terrible about Burning Wheel anyway?

>Any attack that hits the creature is a critical hit if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature.

So? A fighter with 80 hit points can soak like 30 of those critical hits. Also he is not unconscious while shooting himself so he can't.

Even if he was attacked while sleeping by a man with a dagger who literally slits his throat, he will take what? 2d4+2 from a crit? maybe more? That's like 7 damage. He literally won't die until being stabbed like 19 times.

>Why do you put so much effort into bitching about a game you don't understand?

Well apparently I understand it better than you so maybe you should get the fuck out and stop pretending you know shit. You quote the rules and it just proves my point further, then you make an ad hominem attack to try to justify your lack of argument.

We can do it!

We'll just need to find a place to meet in and maybe a Roll20 channel to play in. Who stands with me?

In order to understand the game well enough to play you need to read a 75 page primer. Most folks aren't willing to do that and thus throw it in the garbage bin.

Sounds more like you're a failure at RP and/or the DM is a failure overall.

1. Why did the retard pick survival in a city campaign? IS he some kind of hood rat that needs wilderness survival to survive in a city? Clearly a RP fail.

2. Reading a book like an elvish fag is not the same as to actually going out and casting the spells on unwilling exercise dummies.

3. DM says "Ok roll for Coup De Grace on yourself" or heck even just "K u r kill"

4. imagination-less Braindead people like you shouldn't play a game like this.

THIS so much this. Dungeon World is one of the best systems out there. WAY better than D&D. I found out about it from /r/rpg a few years ago and my group hasn't looked back since.

Inaccessibility is a pretty bad sin, but it alone does not make a system worse than D&D.

>hard mode: no GURPS
Fate, I guess? It's not anything I want to play, but it's great for GMing. I love GMing and playing GURPS, so that wins the contest.

>Well apparently I understand it better than you so maybe you should get the fuck out and stop pretending you know shit. You quote the rules and it just proves my point further, then you make an ad hominem attack to try to justify your lack of argument.
No I'm talking about AD&D, I think you've been wrong literally every time you try and comment of AD&D's rules.

Treating all editions of D&D like one game is butt fucking retarded when they only bear the same name and same umbrella genre.

lmao

Just leave something in the thread and I'll check it out tomorrow. It's getting really late here.

>Most folks aren't willing to do that and thus throw it in the garbage bin.

Yeah because it provides absolutely nothing unique or valuable that you can't get from another system just as easily. The mechanics do nothing special or unique, they don't aid or enhance roleplaying, they're just kinda there.

>Inaccessibility is a pretty bad sin, but it alone does not make a system worse than D&D.
I personally disagree. Not every game needs to be accessible. Complexity in Burning Wheel leads to a fantastically functional game once you understand its mechanics.

I wish other games forced players to read a primer, too many times you have players who will play a game for months or years and not understand its basic concepts.

>Now, if all those systems are shit, what do you consider good?

Not an argument. Just because those systems are bad, does not mean I necessarily have a system that I think is good.

Never have I seen something similar to the Life Paths system out of another fantasy game. If there is something like it please tell me the system, I want to use it.
>Not an argument. Just because those systems are bad, does not mean I necessarily have a system that I think is good.
You didn't answer the question, name a system you think is good.

Then why are you on Veeky Forums at all?

Everyone here that wants to play GURPS, go to GURPS general for now. We can start do shit there.

>Not an argument. Just because those systems are bad, does not mean I necessarily have a system that I think is good.
So all systems are bad? Why the fuck are you even here. We're not /v/. Just going 'hurr durr RPGs are bad' means you're a shithead and don't belong on a community dedicated to talking about RPGs.

>Never have I seen something similar to the Life Paths system out of another fantasy game.
Yeah, because it's unnecessary garbage. Also, Traveller has something similar. Try playing games outside of nu male hipster shit, and you'll see that most of those games aren't really that original, they just repurposed old mechanics to make them more palatable to mental midgets.

Explain how the Life Paths system is supposed to enhance my roleplaying experience.

Because I enjoy playing tabletop RPGs, and CCG/TCG games as well?

>So all systems are bad?
Not necessarily.

>Because I enjoy playing tabletop RPGs, and CCG/TCG games as well?
Even though none of those systems are good?

>Explain how the Life Paths system is supposed to enhance my roleplaying experience.
They help you decide what you've been through until this point in your life, and where you picked up your skills and other talents?

>Even though none of those systems are good?
You can still have fun with a shitty system.

>They help you decide what you've been through until this point in your life, and where you picked up your skills and other talents?

I can do that by writing my backstory. I already included how my character learned his skills in his backstory. Why do I need a bunch of complex rules to force me to roleplay, when I am already doing it? Sounds like a cure for shitty roleplayers, desu.

>The thing about D&D though is that it can do ALL styles of fantasy

>>fighter wants to commit suicide
>>has to shoot himself in the head with a crossbow 12 times because he has 80 hp
okay, I chuckled. also, you have a point here.
>inb4 coup de grace
shitty, unelegant stopgap rule

I played gurps

Burning Wheel is a pretty roleplay-centered system with a lot of mechanics to directly help in that. It sounds like your main complaint with the system is simply that you don't care for that sort of stuff: that hardly makes it a worse system than D&D.

>How can your niche games compare?
They can do all styles of fantasy with the same amount of wrangling that D&D requires.

>Why did the retard pick survival in a city campaign?
Maybe his character isn't from the city originally, and chose that skill to reflect his past? That IS roleplaying. Not everything is a powergaming choice, dumbass.

>Clearly a RP fail.
Clearly, you don't even know what roleplaying is.

>Reading a book like an elvish fag is not the same as to actually going out and casting the spells on unwilling exercise dummies.

Except not all spells are attack spells. Why does a wizard have to kill 30 kobolds to learn how to cast divination?

>DM says "Ok roll for Coup De Grace on yourself" or heck even just "K u r kill"
Except that's DM fiat and you can use that to solve any problem with a system. By that logic, FATAL and D&D 3.5 are good systems, because you can "house rule" and fiat them into working. No.

> imagination-less Braindead people like you shouldn't play a game like this.

That isn't a counterargument to what I said, it's just a lame ad hominem attack. Explain how poison works if most of the time you get "hit" in D&D and take damage, you aren't actually getting hit. Unless you admit that hit points in D&D are meat points and the game makes no fucking sense even in a heroic fantasy context.

I'll bite: what are the other two?

I fucking love pathfinder

Why do you have to be such a shit head about this? I mean fucking seriously you fucking insecure cunt. I was asking you a fucking question because I thought you had an answer not because I wanted you to start with your fucking bullshit. God fucking damn.

>Explain how the Life Paths system is supposed to enhance my roleplaying experience
They supply a fucking mechanical standard for gained abilities during early childhood and adolescence. It's the ability for backstory and role play to have mechanical president. Crunch and fluff working together. It also gives concrete rules for social mobility throughout life and a different way to guage power, by life experience rather than abstract point values.

>Burning Wheel is a pretty roleplay-centered system with a lot of mechanics to directly help in that.

They don't help at all, though. They just make my backstory conform to pregenerated rules. And if you're solution is "homebrew your own background shit", then why am I even using the rules at all? I can accomplish the same thing by putting a line next to all my skills on my sheet where I explain where / how I learned that skill.

Also, life paths are negligibly different than Traveller's chargen system. So.... not really anything special.

...

Lifepaths also tell you how many skill points and trait points you get.

I specified in a fantasy game. Shit nigger if you want your character generation to be free form then just say so. Your complaining for character generation having mechanics. No seriously you're the retard in this case.

>I want free form backstory creation
Might as well go play dungeon world at this point buddy. You seem be allergic to mechanics.

>Explain how poison works if
Just... don't ask. The idiocy of these deendeefags here is already apparent enough for anyone who can be bothered to look. Let's just call it quits and let them revel in their stupidity, shall we?

>Maybe if he locked himself into a tower and studied he could gain levels outside this, but then there wouldn't be much of a game going, would there? Why would they waste pages to make rules for that sort of boring stuff?
What is downtime between adventuring?

I think BRP did it right.
You could advance skill in adventuring by using it OR you could train this skill spending a long time. Adventuring was far superior way to learn things than study but you had option to do something in downtime, like in winter when traveling is a bad idea.

>What is downtime between adventuring?
Something that happens between actual adventures rather than being the entire meat of the game.

If you're above touch AC the attack touched you and just didn't do any damage. If you hit AC you hit and it did some amount of damage represented by HP loss (just not enough to put you unconscious). People who say hitting AC means it doesn't touch you are in the wrong. Literally what Touch AC is for.

>Lifepaths also tell you how many skill points and trait points you get.
So do classes in D&D. Again, nothing special.

So? I can play D&D 5e and just pick a goddamn background and it's way easier than having to justify every skill I pick to some gay-ass rule. i can do that on my own.