DM makes an NPC tsundere

>OP makes a terrible thread
>other posters want him to kill himself

Maybe I've been on Veeky Forums too long, but is the fact that you should kill yourself really that hard for you to grasp?

There's no such thing as 'tsundere' in real life or anything resembling it. You're either a bitch or not a bitch. No exceptions.

Here's the thing: We are the actions we take. It doesn't matter what your motivations may be, what 'secret thoughts' you harbor, what you want to do, or what you want the consequences to be. At all. Ever. All that matters is the actions you take and the consequences they actually have. If someone acts like a bitch, they're a bitch. No exceptions. If some douche acts like a sleezeball, they're a sleezeball. If someone acts stupid, they're stupid. End of story.

So, if a woman treats you like dirt, she's a worthless bitch and you should tell her to fuck off and forget about her. No exceptions.

Yeah, they are. Most women are just bitches without the "actually cares for you" part. Still, while tsundere's are much better than 3DPD they're at the bottom rungs of the 2D hierarchy. Why go for a bitch or someone who pretends to be a bitch when you can go for a decent person instead?

So here's my attempt at being thoughtful: 90% of the time my characters are designed to carry out a power fantasy. This means that they are working hard and at a fast pace to create changes in the setting and acquire more power all the time. It's a lifestyle, and it affects everything they do. Even if they desire to go out on a lark and do some zany shit for the thrill of it, they're still going hard as a motherfucker. So when a tsundere character tries to get my PC's attention, he's going to blow right past that motherfucker because he knows he'd have to invest effort into getting her to be honest about her affection. Why bother? Why waste the time when there are more sincere love interests to pursue? Treating her like a bitch just becomes a way to signal how little interacting with that NPC interests him.

They don't exist in reality or even outside Japanese caricatures, so yeah, it's foreign by both senses of the word.

>Why bother? Why waste the time when there are more sincere love interests to pursue? Treating her like a bitch just becomes a way to signal how little interacting with that NPC interests him.
You're not wrong, but this has nothing to do with le ebin male power fantasy maymay. Most reasonable people (a minority of men I'd wager) don't like bitches, they don't like investing time and effort and money into something that gives close to zero returns. Tsundere is a shit archetype outside of very, very specific circumstances under which the tsundere in question has a valid reason to dislike the protagonist. But by giving her valid reasons, she stops being a tsundere.

It depends.
Are we talking 'it's not like I like you or anything' tsundere or 'constant physical and verbal abuse' tsundere?

Tsundere aren't even that attractive, honestly. Is the reason people enjoy this personality type because they hope all the bitchy women in their life secretly like them?

I don't think it is for most, although I could well be wrong. Part of the appeal of tsundere characters (i.e. not the crazy over-the-top bitchy ones) for me is being able to relate to struggling with one's feelings and having trouble communicating them. The idea that eventually they do overcome that difficulty and are able to be true to themselves (at least to an extent) is really nice IMO. It's only natural to be attracted to people possessing trait/s somewhat similar to yours.
I know I'm a pathetic faggot for not being able to say what's on my mind like a normal human being, but these characters are interesting to observe from such a perspective, even if they aren't 100% representative of reality.

That makes sense. I guess I just relate more to the kuudere type.

Tsundere characters are hard to write. No one wants to hang around a character who's constantly bitchy and says something nice once in a blue moon. What you need to do is give the impression that their insults and bitchiness are just a front for her true feelings. If she makes threats or hurls insults at someone, they have to feel like they have no weight to them.

I tried writing a tsundere forest sprite once and she acts like she knows everything when she's actually seriously out of her depth, and her facade usually crumbles quickly when she's in a human settlement, where she would hide or tremble behind someone else but insist that she was perfectly fine by herself, you stupid human.

Glad you understand, thanks. I think kuuderes are definitely pretty relatable and interesting as well, the two archetypes do share some similarities. Regardless, good for you dude!

That's a new perspective. You've opened my eyes user.

>DM makes a character that dislikes the PCs
>players think she's just being tsundere and spend time trying to woo her instead of continuing with the quest
What do?

>tsundere
>not a bitch
Pick one

Really? No problem, it's nice to hear that my opinion's resonated with someone.

Have BBEGugh kill her off. Have her dying words express her love for the PCs. Bam. PCs now motivated to kill BBEG.

>Not having the BBEG(female) cuck the tsundere into irrelevance

>maybe i have been a weeaboo too long

Yup.

>Is tsundere that strange.

Yup. If your fellow players aren't weebufags don't do that shit. If you Meet a person irl that acts like a piece of shit you just ditch him or her and you don't waste a second thought.

This shitty stereotype doesn't Work in a setting where the protagonists reactions aren't determined by the author.

This is hot but it gives me the feel bads.

I'm torn.

No, but you have to understand. Many players establish who a character is withing 5 seconds, and never change this perception.
If the first thing this character said was something along the lines of "Idiots!", a good chunk of players just assume she's a cunt and stop paying attention.

Aaaaand where is this from and what is going on?

For science.

>filename

...

>but are tsundere really that strange of a concept?
For normies yes, and it's even harder if you don't have visual cues a lot of anime rely on things like blushing and exaggerated motions around whoever they're tsundere towards to relay the concept

Is that actually a thing? I only even know the term from Kingsmen.

>Is manipulating people a thing?
Gee whiz, user, I dunno.

Tsundere in its modern iteration is pretty fucking trash. It basically encourages passive relationship and status quo.
Consider the following: the way tsundere should actually work is basically being an ice queen - you persistently try and make her fall in love with you, and she gradually thaws.

>maybe I'm too much of a weeaboo-
Yes. If you have achieved the self awareness to ponder that, the answer has to be yes.

But as others have stated, if you're put in a situation where you and a pretty girl might start getting interested in you, and that girl is acting like a bitch, you aren't going to think "oh she secretly likes me, she's just being a total bitch for soooome fucking reason" you're going to think the girl is a bitch until she proves otherwise.

>When you read or watch something with a character that is outwardly treating someone like trash for several episodes/chapters/whatever it's okay because you are separated from it and the emotional payoff of a character showing a soft side will carry you. Players in a game get their first impressions of a character in the first session the character appears. If they don't like the character when they first show up, they may never like the character.

This.

Also important to note that in a lot of fiction, there are asshole or bitchy characters who become likable because they are also very funny.

Archer, for instance. I don't know any anime examples to tell you because I'm not a complete faggot.

But the point being, a lot of times players or GMs will try to put those sort of characters into games, but because they are not naturally funny people, and don't have a staff of professional comedians writing jokes for them, they can't pull off the funny jerk thing, and so they end up being purely a jerk. And instead of liking them in spite of their flaws, everyone else just fucking hates them.

I've seen that happen quite a few times, it's relatively common I think.

>but are tsundere really that strange of a concept?

Yes. In the real world, an asshole is often just an asshole.

Most people don't get off on women being mean to them.

First post is best post.

It may be "cute" to super beta weeaboos watching a cartoon, but in real life being a bitch just makes you a bitch.

Making a character who treats the players like dirt doesn't work unless there's some circumstance that makes the players tolerate being treated like dirt. If you wanted to pull this off with any decent chance of succeeding, the bitch in question would have to be in a position of authority over the players, or otherwise untouchable by players, but still in frequent contact with them. Assuming the players tolerate this for some reason (good quest rewards, intel, connections, ect) you MIGHT be able to keep her relevant long enough to show a softer side. Otherwise, good fucking luck, most people aren't going to stand around and be treated like shit by some bitch who thinks she's the greatest thing ever. If you're lucky they're gonna walk away and go raid a dungeon instead, if you're unlucky they're gonna muderhobo or magical realm her.

>Making a character who treats the players like dirt

That's not really tsundere. They just need to be extremely reluctant to show their true feelings.

Marcille is an example of a tsundere done well.

Marcille is a main character though, not an NPC. It's the difference between a Player Character and an NPC. There's a reason most NPCs aren't adventurer-heroes and all that.

FPBP

/thread

>tsundere

Is a thing weebs imagine because they're incapable of having healthy relationships.

Artist source please?

In Hollywood, only males are truly recognized as being tsundere.

>not picking both best girl and boy

Out of curiosity, what anime is that gif from anyways?

>Negging is a special form of stupid
Your virgin is showing.

I wish it ended up like this more often. IRL, the only real result of a girl being a bitch to the guy she likes is said guy moving away and the girl ending up alone and sad. Unless of course he's masochistic, actually knows for sure that she loves him and/or he gets to see her non-bitch mode every so often.

In animeuniverse however, you can be 99% sure that the guy will either A/ consider her bitchiness charming, B/ be too much of a doormat to even react or C/ try to move away from the bitch and somehow be considered worse than Hitler for it before being physically brought back to her by society.

Fuck, I'm getting Love Hina flashbacks just by typing this and it's making me mad.

>using horrible japanese animu cliches in your roleplaying game

I have a friends that acts like that. Except he's a guy and there's no sexual tension.
For a birthday party, he prepared an apple pie and offered some to everyone, but he made it a point to say publicly "Everyone can eat my pie, except user because he's a dick!"
It was mildly funny, but that's how he usually acts. There was a bunch of cake so I didn't really take it to heart. The very funny part is when he says in a low voice so only I can hear: "All right, you can have the last slice, but don't tell anyone" and discreetly hands me slice of pie.

Unless it's really well written, a tsundere is just a bitch.

Tsundere's are ultimately bitches at first, so you have to be more overt with the deredere moments and not have her go into Bitch Mode Hyperdrive. Most players don't like dealing with a character who have their claws out.

Did you suck his cock afterwards?

Boku no eh nandatte

As precised, no homo (at least on my end).
He's living in Japan right now and he is willing to let me live in his flat as long as he can insult me every morning. Japanese is too mild when it comes to swear words, and he's feeling bad after long stretches of not insulting people.

Hardcore tsunderes don't actually exist, nor do they work. What does actually happen is a soft tsundere, and should be what your NPC should be like.

Instead of being a bitch to everyone, have the NPC be apathetic or claim to have seen better rather than have her slander your PC's. Finding times to show the dere tends to be harder, during camping and just after stressful situations may garner better results.

tl;dr: be nicer with your NPC, and understand that PC's will not like every kind of woman.

An old drawfag that left for greener pastures.
grognard.booru.org/index.php?page=post&s=list&tags=greenmarine_(artist)

wtf is tsundere?

>people acting tsundere about tsundere

You know you love them.

>Fuck, I'm getting Love Hina flashbacks just by typing this and it's making me mad.
FUCK FUCK FUCK YOU

NOW I HAVE TO REPRESS EVERYTHING AGAIN

But user, what is there to repress? Isn't being half-naked in your room, while putting your clothes on, a death-worthy offense for a man? Isn't mauling someone, up to and including breaking their leg, a most sincere proof of love? Isn't the wife punching her husband while the guests applaud a traditional part of everything wedding?

Seriously, wtf is wrong with Japan? Never nuke a country twice. Nuke it a hundred times over or not at all.

>Love Hina
It says a lot about the anime, if the most popular type of fanfiction about it is revenge fic.

>fanfiction
As if. The manga had an actual arc centered around the MC finally being done with the girl's bullshit and quitting. He gets replaced by his sister who immediately begins to tear a new hole to every single one of the girls as retaliation. The sister was meant to be an antagonist but her arc is considered one of the best.

I'm just saying, the most common point of departure for anime fanfiction is powering up the protagonist.
The most common departure point for Love Hina? It's the dude being done with girls' abusive bullshit.

Genuinely underrated post.

They are fun to tease.

>people complaining about how there's no tsunderes IRL, only bitches
>in a thread about, and on a board about, organized make-believe

The key to a good tsundere beyond, obviously, knowing that your players will enjoy that sort of character is a subtle hand. A torrent of insults only appeals to a hardcore masochist; someone who occasionally gets annoyed is flawed in a relatable way. It helps if you don't set out to make a character who's tsundere; rather, consider character traits that could cause someone to act that way more organically. I have a PC who likes people and likes making people happy, but combines that with a temperamental personality and a general sense of superiority. End result: Genuinely nice and usually pleasant to be around, but prone to making a quick snap when someone's acting foolish, and known to sulk a bit when her pride is injured.

You seem to ignore that Naru beat the wimp out of him. We all need more Naru.

It's hard to make a tsundere work. If you go to soft they're fan girls with a bad mouth. If you go too hard they're a total bitch.

The thing is that you need to make their attitude, bitchy or not, understandable or even justifiable. Most anime tsundere's have one of the following "explanations" for their behavior
>They're just tsundere, lol
>They're just shy and can't express their feelings honestly lol
>She can't trust people because [sob story] so she's a bitch now lol

I can think of two examples of tsundere done right from the top of my head.
The first is Ludmilla from Madan no Ou to Vanadis. She has a very good reason to distrust the protagonist: not only is he from a foreign and hostile country, but she's the hostage/retainer of her greatest rival to boot. That's already two strikes against him, but she quickly warms up when it turns out that he's a good and reliable person who takes his duties as a noble very seriously.

The second is Rozalin from Disgaea 2 pls no spoil, I'm only at chapter 5 or something. She distrusts the protagonist because she's a (sheltered) demon princess and he's a somewhat vulgar human commoner. There you have it, an understandable conflict that leads to her being icy cold to the protagonist, but slowly warming up as she gets to know her.

A good tsundere is a character with understandable motivations that develops. A bad tsundere (sadly the more common type) is a badly written character that only has the illusion of (temporary) development.

>Inb4 "but the examples you mentioned aren't really tsundere"
If you truly believe this, then I have to change my conclusion: there is no such thing as a good tsundere, "tsundere" is merely moonspeak for "highly condensed bad character development"

Thanks user

Tsundere doesn't work outside Japan.

The reason tsundere exists, is because Japanese society has a very weird ritualistic approach to romantic social interactions. Unless the NPC comes from a culture with similar social conventions, it just looks weird.

>The reason tsundere exists, is because Japanese society has a very weird ritualistic approach to romantic social interactions.
Go on, you have my attention.

But archer is the best anime

Not him but in Japan the "love confessions" like you see in anime are actually a fairly common way to start a relationship.

tofugu.com/japan/kokuhaku-love-confessing-japan/

Best post first post

Actually sounds kind of nice to have such a formalized ritual in your culture. Both sides know what to expect and there's no awkard middle ground.

Though on the other hand
>I would like to have a relationship with you with the objective of an eventual marriage.
Holy shit, I saw this phrase in a manga and I thought it was supposed to be a joke. Japanese adults *actually* do this shit? It's refreshingly honest but damn son.

>Tsundere doesn't work outside Japan.

Literally a movie about a male tsundere.

You're welcome.

It sounds nice and romantic, but in actuality it fucks up people's approach to romance and relationships. That's why Japan has meido cafes, dating sims and used panties vending machines.

>It sounds nice and romantic, but in actuality it fucks up people's approach to romance and relationships
Yeah, if you define "romance and relationships" by the messed up standards of the post-modern West.

>Meido café
Pretty much a SFW Hooters. Nothing wrong with this.

>Dating sims
Nothing wrong with this. I wouldn't mind this trend blowing over to the West.

>Panties vending machines
Alright, that's kind of weird.

Hooters is like a SFW strip club.

without stripping

Is that a cause of Japan's declining birth-rate or a symptom? I assume that their salaryman culture has deterred people into starting families, but what about relationships?
I know that many 1st world countries have lower birth-rates, but why is Japan exceptional?

USED panties vending machines.

>Is that a cause of Japan's declining birth-rate or a symptom?
I'd say neither, considering they're performing better than Germany in that field. The latter just has a... "solution" that masks the problem.

> Not him but in Japan the "love confessions" like you see in anime are actually a fairly common way to start a relationship.
I fucking imagine now a shy Japanese girl working up her courage to "confess her love" to a Westerner, and when she finally does, she is bluntly told "Aren't we already dating, though?"

>"I l-l-love you, A-kun! W-w-wanna go on d-d-deito?"
>"B-chan... ...We've been in various cafes, cinema, arcade, walks in the park, my home and YOUR home. So you think those somehow "didn't count" as a date, just because you didn't ask for my permission to fall in love with me?"

Man, two nukes were clearly not enough.

It's actually one of the reason a lot of Japanese girls are into gaijins, because we don't care for all this hyperritualized bullshit

>is a main character though, not an NPC.
You know, this is a key facet that I think a lot of people don't realize. A lot of character archetypes are much more suited for main character roles than side roles. Tsunderes make much better PCs than they do NPCs.

>a lot
Not nearly as many as your fantasies tell you, user.

I would think that most of them wouldn't even think about dating gaijins. Japan is quite xenophobic towards the idea of permanent foreign residents, but there might be many that secretly want to be with certain foreigners. There are probably a significant amount who are more open to cultural changes such as dating rituals, but I'd imagine Japan is less culturally diffusive compared to Western countries, especially America.

>a lot
Kek. Gaijin hunters are notorious golddigging whores though. Kind of like in every country those who actively hunt and fetishize foreigners are like that. Not every woman who dates or marries a black guy is a slut, but straight up mudsharks? Yeah, they're sluts.

>haha manipulating!
If you do something it's out of your own will, selling your product isn't manipulation unless you're outright lying.

Yes, actually it's incredibly weird. It's a whole class of characters based on a delusion that otakus and other unwanted people share: that people who hate you secretly love you, especially women. Nobody really acts like that. If someone acts like they hate you despite the social pressure to be polite (which is even stronger in Japan,) you can rest assured they actually hate you. And if you're the sort of person who likes anime, their hatred of you is probably perfectly justified.

>selling your product isn't manipulation unless you're outright lyin
And this is why I don't get the hate for PUA. Not even into it myself, but from what I've seen most of it is basically "just b urself" and a handful of useful "tricks". Compare what practically every woman on the planet does with make-up, corrective clothing, pads and push-up bras, THAT is straight up false advertising. Why is that criticized less than men simply exchanging tips and tricks?