Reading through the shooting rules for 8th, I noticed something funny. Nothing stops you from shooting your own units. There are rules to stop you shooting into a combat, etc, but I can't find a rule saying you can't shoot your own unit. I'm not sure how this could be useful, but I'm sure someone can think of something.
I know it's clearly a loophole and I wouldn't seriously try it on, but show me the rule that says I can't.
Well that seems useful for the Ynnari
Furthermore, all the further restrictions about LoS, range, etc. do specify enemy models. So strictly you can fire at friendly models out of range or LoS.
I knew someone would find something. Additionally, sporocysts can make solid use of this, aiming at spore mines left by other units, in order to drop MORE spore mines.
>it's too risky to shoot units in melee combat, you might hit your own!
>but if you want to shoot your dudes for no reason, nothing stops you
Welp, this needs a FAQ.
Or perhaps we could finally get to shoot units in melee, with a 50/50 dice throw to determine whose unit gets hit. That'd ne fun and quite useful for some armies.
Shoot with pistols at helbrute to make additional shooting attack
Don't have the rules on hand, so someone has to check the wording, but couldn't you technically steal first blood from your opponent by killing your own unit?
Example: Opponent shoots at your 10 marines. All but one die. Next turn he has garanteed FB unless you kill something first. You shoot your rhinos stormbolter at your marine, he dies. You secure first blood for the emperor. May his selfless sacrifice be remembered forever.
Or grey knights uses blood of sororitas as paint
I don't play 40k but if you're playing Imperial Guard, isn't that part and parcel?
First blood specifies the first unit to be destroyed is worth 1 Victory Point to the opposing player.
Killing your own unit would award your opponent First Blood.
Speaking of loopholes, the buddy system coherence needs to be FAQd. By the current reading of RAW there are only two possible interpretations
>as long as each model in the squad is standing next to another member the individual pairs can be as far apart as they want and still achieve coherency
>no squad can ever achieve coherency
Have they fixed this yet? I haven't checked in awhile.
I think you're really reaching there, OP.
There is no FAQ currently that I've seen on GW's errata page nor anywhere such as the community page.
Besides that though, I sincerely doubt the rules were intended for that buddy system thing to be a thing. Drop kick the people trying to defend that, for serious.
a FaQ literarily just came out (not that it addressed the OP's problem) but still.
It's not that there are rules for targeting, and those don't explicitly outlaw targeting your own guys,
there exists no way in the game for you to target your own units with an attack.
And since you have no way of targeting a friendly unit with an attack, OP's scenario is impossible and irrelevant.
FAQ just resolved this.
Made me lol, but tru tho
Show me in the rules where it says you can shoot your own units. Show me int he rules where it says I can't assrape you immediately on sight.
I never liked how some armies couldn't shoot into melee in case they hit their own. It's very not 40k. It would be a good avenue for balance too.
>ZOG IT BOSS! WE CANT SHOOT EM! WE MIGHT HIT OUR OWN BOYZ!
>BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! KHORNE DOES NOT CARE FROM WHERE THE BLOOD FLOWS! MIND YOUR SHOTS LADS! WE WOULDN'T WANT TO GIVE OUR GUYS BOO BOOS!
>Tyranids
>Death Korps of Krieg
>Penal Legions
You must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks.
The Select Target section only specifies enemy units when talking about restrictions relating to range, etc. When telling you to select a target it does not mention enemy. Later sections don't specify either.
It's a dumb mistake and easily fixed, but it erodes trust in the system and causes us to be more likely to homerule "fixes" that aren't intended.
I'm willing to let certain races shoot into their own men as long as 50% rounded up of the shots hit their own guys.
Read the next fucking sentence, dipshit. Not even the next sentence, the next SIX fucking words.
I'm sure Fantasy orcs or maybe shaven had a rule allowing for shooting into combat that could probably be altered for 40k. Pretty certain that the lotr sbg had a rule allowing it too
Yes, so your units can't shoot at an ENEMY unit out of range, out of los or within 1 an inch of friendly unit.
That means your units can shoot at a friendly unit out of range, out of los or within 1" of an enemy unit. They can shoot at even at their own head.
I mean, it's mostly underpowered armies that would use this anyway. I'm up for a quick Tyranids buff.
I can't think of any hypothetical situation where it would be an advantage.
Shooting in combat would be, but as noted it's explicitly forbidden. Aside from the rat man in Fantasy. Which has dubious benefit anyway.
Still it's a pretty Warhammer attitude. So Kudo.
There are no rules for attacking your own units after "picking" them.
40k is a permissive rule-set, that means you can only do what the game explicitly states you may do.
You'll notice that there's no rule stating that I can't control your units in my turn- that doesn't mean that I can.
So no, it's not even really a loophole.
Every instance about resolving the attack talks about a target unit, without that distinction.
See Read carefully and note which sentences allow targeting and which add restrictions to the possible targets and what those restrictions are.
Sounds like OP is a commisar
Which comes back to my what I said, No where does it state that you may shoot friendly units.
Nah, that's dumb.
Make misses hit your own dudes. Those shots still went somewhere, after all.
>every sentence following this sentence discussing "enemy unit" doesn't use that distinction
Wow it's like you didn't learn your lesson from 7E after insisting GW repeat themselves redundantly redundancy redundant 10,000 times.
It says you can shoot units during your shooting phase. Your own guys are units. They've granted you permission.
>FAQ just resolved this.
They didn't, really.
>No. The unit must set up or finish any sort of move as a single group.
They still haven't defined what a single group means. Do all the models have to be the exact same distance from one another? It's still open ended what qualifies.
in other editions it would've been a huge advantage. Used to be you could get locked into combat. Shooty armies had no real way to counter this, as they would get trapped in combat, the enemy would kill them on his turn, then charge you again. Granted shooting was usually far more powerful in these editions, but it as a real weakness, especially when one of these armies was on the low tier, such as IG in 7th or Tau in 5th.
Now, you can fall back out of combat whenever you want with no issues whatsoever, and leave the opponent open to shooting. On top of that, anything with fly, Titanic qualities (like knights) and some other cases like IG infantry can still fire after leaving combat, giving even more strength, so shooting into combat isn't needed at all.
As an IG player, I really don't get why I can have a squad of conscripts fall back from a unit of khorne beserker with 0 risk whatsoever. It really feels like the non fleeing unit/s should be allowed to make an attack of opportunity of some sort.
Granted, I love the new flexibility of the assault phase now, it has way more depth than it used to and really rewards clever use of screening, characters, falling back, overwatch traps, and counter charging. I've done more charges as an IG player in my first 5 games of 8th than in twenty 6-7th games, and they always felt like a genuine and rewarding tactic when done correctly. Trying to hold the line, give just enough to temp the opponent to charge a unit specifically positioned as bait, then falling back and counter charging just feels so right as a guard player, even if I don't kill much I can Rob the opponent of his initiative that he could've gained charging in his following turn.
>DOTO denying
I like it.
An unit have "permission" to shoot at a friendly unit by "picking" a friendly unit as a target.
It can be fixed very easily by adding two words, but for now your marines may shoot bolters at friendly marines 240" away and not visible at all.
If someone tried to pull that shit with me in a friendly game, I'd concede right there, and never play with them again. Hope the win is worth it for them.
Leave now and sell all of your minis on ebay. The shit is now legal, your only defense is denying game.
I don't have to worry about dumb bullshit like that since I play HH. Might be a small crowd, but at least we play for fun. Sometimes I forget regular 40k is where the manchildren prefer to stay so they can use their Tau Gundams and Black Mace Daemon Princes, and whatever the 8th edition equiv of that is.
"You're killing your own units! HOW DARE YOU"
Kharn must really upset you
How about hose rule to allow shooting in to combat but you can try to aim at not your own.
This would grant you debuf for hitting but buff for roll on to which dude got shot. For each -1 to hit you get +1 to not hit your dudes.
Basic roll is on 4+
To hit>to hit2>to wound>savec ect.
So lets say 5 Marines want to shoot at orks cc with other marines, with bolters and missile.
They decide to aim and substract -2 from initial hit roll.
They now hit on 5+ but at the same time hits go in to Marines on a roll of 6.
Missile hit on 6 and go to marine on 6.
You never can aim to get +1 or more to uour shooting.
What do you think?
I don't think adding pepper makes soup better when the soup is already messed up.
They'd literally just have to have said once that you can only target enemies, OR use the word enemy in the first sentence when they talk about allowing you to select a target.
Again, I'm not planning on using this (and not just because I can't find any advantage with any of my armies to doing so), but it's the sort of thing that should have been caught before it went to print, or at least in the FAQ. Not because people would try it, but because it erodes faith in the ruleset.
Ynnari could abuse the system by taking solo Khymerae or so in order to game Soulburst and have a cheap source of "extra actions". Mm, that's good cheddar.
Look up the rules for Shooting.
Does it say "Opponent" there? Then you cannot shoot your own units.
It doesn't use the word opponent. It uses the word enemy, but only when specifying that you have to shoot at a unit in range, LoS, etc.
> "In order for you to target an enemy unit, ..."
> "Models cannot target enemy units that are ..."
Weirdly it's implying that you can fire at allied units even if they're out of range, etc.
The only time it directs you to pick a target it just says
>"Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks".
The relevant section is and if you read through the shooting rules, it never specifies enemy or opponent once when talking about resolving the attack.
It doesn't have to. The targeting rules force you to choose a enemy unit making shooting rules only relevant to that subset of units
The select target section does not specify a way of targeting anything that is not an enemy unit.
Thus, it cannot be done.
People keep saying this, but it does. The only time it tells you to pick a unit it just says "pick the target unit or units". Your units are units. Thus allowing you. So the question becomes, does it say I can't elsewhere?
The next sentence at a glance looks like it limits you to enemy units, but doesn't, it only limits you to firing at models in range, when targeting enemies. The last sentence in the section also only defines a subsection of enemy units that can't be fired at. It doesn't anywhere in the target selection section actually limit you to firing at enemy units, unless your copy looks different to That said, I'm done here. No-one is going to be convinced if they haven't been already, and no-one actually thinks that any opponent will be okay with this, regardless of how technically correct it is.
Never heard of Commissars OP?
My IG are Catachans, we don't hold much truck with that sort of thing. My boyz stopped killing each other this edition though, so that was nice.
Can you fucking cast Psychic powers in combat? why is the shitty rulebook so vague
i waited for the faq, it drops yesterday and still nothing mentioning it
I'm assuming you can but nothing says you can or can't to my knowledge
Yes you can. Psychic powers aren't shooting. The targeting restriction for nearby friendly models is a shooting phase one only.
can you cast a witchfire attack then while in CC? I wanted to but my opponent said no.
"Witchfire attacks" aren't a thing. You're never rolling your BS to see if a power hits. Which power are you referring to?
The only confusing part of this is that it runs contrary to prior editions which did resolve many powers as shooting. That appears to be the mistake your opponent is making.
oh fuck, you're right. I was cheated out of those attacks and probably lost because of it.