"4-40k 8th is better than 7th"

7th
>Shooting casualties were removed from the closest model first, but you could only remove models in range and line of sight. (Barring Look Out Sir!).

8th
>Defender allocates all casualties, but casualties can spillover to models out of range and line of sight. A Stormraven can wipe out a 10-man Guard squad if it can draw a line from its wingtip to a single model in the squad.

7th:
>Models could get cover from intervening units. Vehicles and monsters could get cover from being obscured by buildings or other units. Having cover could dramatically impact your survivability, as long as you avoided Ignore Cover attacks.

8th
>A unit must be 100% in cover before any model can benefit from cover. A vehicle that is 99% obscured gets no cover unless it is also actually in cover. This really doesn't matter much anyway since powerful AP weapons will render cover meaningless for those units that need it the most.

7th
>You only get to overwatch once. Choose wisely.

8th
>Overwatch to infinity, as long as the enemy fails to make it into melee.

7th
>Anything can go into Reserves. Chapter tactics/Warlord traits/etc let you manipulate how you enter the map.

8th
>No reserves unless your unit actually has rules for it. Most units must deploy more than 9" away from foes, so the enemy can create an 18" dead zone between units to say "nope" to reserves.

7th
>Psykers were powerful but risky. Invisibility was stupid dangerous if your foe didn't have the tools to counter it, but casting powers was a calculated risk, where greater success rates also meant greater Perils rates.

8th
>Hope you enjoy spamming Smite.

7th
>You could move the enemy around, via Tank Shock, or kiting them via mandatory pile-in/consolidate.

8th
>A blue Horror can block a Land Raider from moving past it. All pile-in moves are optional, so a unit can't be removed from an objective/away from a buff bubble. Congalines are very in.

>nu-GW IDF
>ever conceding that nu-GW can do anything wrong

You're wasting your time, user.

Supersonic movement means you will be locked into moving in a square, and Hellhounds have the speed and range to catch you.

>8th
>>Overwatch to infinity, as long as the enemy fails to make it into melee.

They pulled their triggers TWICE this phase! How dare they!! How unsporting!!!

>insanely mobile flier
>Gets hit by a guardsmen with a flamer

Lmao

>They pulled their triggers TWICE this phase! How dare they!! How unsporting!!!

Are you retarded? They can keep doing it until they finally manage to get in. That is why it's retarded. What, are you a tau fag or something?

You correctly point out how retarded it is that a flamethrower can shoot down a supersonic aircraft.

But you have this problem against people being charged at... PULLING THEIR TRIGGERS MORE THAN ONCE!

The cognitive dissonance is real.

>7th
>>some vehicles were too heavily armored and powerful to even be scratched by small arms fire
>8th
>>lasguns wound Raiders on 5s

7th: Land Raiders weren't even played because they died instantly.

You can tell this is a troll thread because he chose 7th edition to compare instead of literally any other edition, including RT, because they're all better than the shitfest that was 7th.

Even despite all that retarded shit AND THEN SOME, the overwhelming majority of people STILL prefer 8th because 7th is so bad. 7th is the WHFB of 40K.

What bothers me about this thread is that the OP almost certainly thinks that 8th is better then 7th yet people are going to take the bait and give this thread 100 posts anyway.

Guardsman just sneak up on you user :^)

No that was the point in 7th of them only shooting once. Because everything happens at once. It's not like each squad takes their turn charging all orderly, they charge all at once. And the squad has too choose which chargers to shoot at. You're acting like people getting swarmed have the time to shoot at every single group running towards them, but no they really don't.

Automatic weapons and even semi-automatic weapons can fire FAST. Really FUCKING FAST. The 6 to hit represents firing wildly in all directions in a panic - I'm okay with that. But only firing once is as retarded as shooting down an airplane with a flamethrower.

Actually, it's not that they died instantly. It's more that they died to two specific silver-bullet combos (Gravcannon Skyhammer and WWP DScythes), and that they generally didn't have anything worth transporting when it was just easier to spend the points on a Smashfucker Bike Squad, or other combo.

Heavy armor could work if you had the tools to neutralize silver-bullets first. Jon Camacho made top 8 LVO last year with a Zahndrekh/Obelisk/Monolith build by adding Deathmarks to the equation to neutralize those two threats, and only lost to Harrison on objectives.

What about stuff like breech-loaders/artillery, Leman Russes or Basilisks/etc? Also, what makes them able to throw down so many more shots just because the enemy starts waving swords rather than shotguns?

fucking this.

vehicles were universally garbage in 7th. anyone who thinks they were good is straight up retarded.

Artillery does need a bit of a buff. But thankfully mortars and earthshakers are no longer better sniper weapons than actual sniper rifles.

Initiative was fucked in 7th too, specially towards the end with things like 2+ sieze the initiative with ultramarines. But mechanized and deep strike have no influence over it.

Deep striking was extremely high risk, maybe an ok reward, and no reward if it was a melee unit with deep strike. There was no execution to it, all you could do was pray that you passed the reserve roll when you needed to and not scatter too far in the wrong direction. It is extremely reliable now, but with a 9'' no go zone it is hard not to place your units in such a way that nothing can land near your most valuable stuff anyway.

>7th : Riptide/wraithknight/scarbike spam. 8th : people are still looking for a single unit to spam
And nothing changed here.

Smart people never let your flamers get close enough to deploy effectively enough to actually kill more than one or two dudes because of the range limit anyway.

Firing from small part of the vehicles is dumb, but the endless arguments about firing arcs that GW refused to clear up was not ideal either. And vehicles having that limitation whilst monsters and gargantuan creatures could fire everything from their pinky toe was a bit arbitrary.

Lasguns don't wound Land Raiders on a 5. You haven't actually read the new rules, but just googled '8th edition warhammer 40k memes' haven't you ? Besides, only AV 12+ was somewhat safe, and then everybody was spamming weapons with lots of Str 6+ shots and glanced vehicles to death in 3 hits. Vehicles are mostly more durable now.

Whilst is somewhat silly that flamers can hit flyers, in practice it rarely happens unless the flyer actively goes closer to get hit. Units that are fast enough to chase a flyer and get in range to flame it are mostly flying themselves.

7th and 6th were the only editions where combi-bolters were different to stormbolters.

Fragmentary ammunition.

>semi-automatic weapons can fire FAST.
Really FUCKING FAST

If this was true in 40k, then the basic Bolt gun wouldn't have a maximum of 2 shots, at close range.

> But only firing once is as retarded as shooting down an airplane with a flamethrower.

Are you also saying you should be able to fire more than once during shooting? What makes it different than over watching? Over watching is supposed to represent the panicked fire of a squad as someone is charging them, shooting the first thing they see and believe will reach them.

In 7th this was represented by the decision to either over watch the first people to charge you, or take a risk and wait, possible getting charged in the process. This actually added a little bit of CHOICE in the matter, and didn't let shooting armies(Such as Guard) to just rape every combat army immediately.

In 8th ed, a 50 man conscript squad gets 100 lasgun shots immediately at whoever charged them. Then ANOTHER 100 shots at another squad that charges them, until someone FINALLY gets in.

Does that sound like a good system too you? Like at all? The cognitive dissonance is real.

>Are you also saying you should be able to fire more than once during shooting?

You already do if you have a gun that permits you to, like a Rapid Fire weapon or whatnot.

Then why do you need to shoot more than once during over watch? You still can rapid fire while over watching.

Yeah but I've always assumed that the number of shots listed in the respective Codexes were the 'maximum firing rate'. So it really doesn't make sense.

Because 40k 8th edition is already heavily weighted in favor of assault, and needs something as a counterweight. 8th is where 1st turn assaults are very easy to do.

>Hover bikes and even regular bikes can go FAST. Really FUCKING FAST...

Its called a gameplay abstraction that covers everything into firing a weapon dipshit; like IDing targets, getting a sight picture, stabilizing a weapon, aiming at ideal point, etc. Units (generally) do one thing per phase. Its how the game works. Should you be able to fire at every unit within range because "hurf durf they can pull da trigga mo times."

I'm assuming he means Dark Eldar Raiders.

Combi-Bolters were different to Storm Bolters since 3rd.

As for MC and GC, yes it's stupid. The logical fix should be to measure LOS from weapons for said MC/GCs too. Doubling down on the stupid parts of earlier 40k doesn't mean balance, just a net loss for the game.

Then tanks shooting at somebody behind them from a sponson mounted to the front is an abstraction nobody should complain about either.

>Because 40k 8th edition is already heavily weighted in favor of assault

Are you seriously saying this user? You can just disengage now, and with guard that unit that disengaged can still shoot with orders.

But even more important now is the unit that charged, is out in the open now. And shootable. AKA dead. This is the balance to combat in 8th, hints the over watch shit isn't even needed, just makes combat armies that much worse.

In 7th you could rely on being stuck in combat, and it was always better to kill a squad on your opponent's turn, so you wouldn't get shot to shit.

>8th is where 1st turn assaults are very easy to do.

And? What I said above still applies, just disengage and shoot them with everything else.

So I'm reading all this and I don't see how any of this is a problem.

Only real problem with 8th is that quantity of dice thrown by Ork boy mob is unwieldy to the point of insanity

Different user here. Assuming the model is a space marine:
Rapid fire represents the guns user, having closed the distance with his opponent, being able to take a more triggerhappy approach to shooting, since he will have an easier time hitting enemies at this range, thus getting "two" shots. In comparison, at long range he only gets "one" shot since he has to aim more carefully and conserve his ammunition.
It does not represent him shooting his gun twice.

When you overwatch, he gets those two shots; his opponent is within close range, so he doesn't have to aim carefully.
As the other user hs stated, 40k is divided into turns for simplicities sake. Everything on the board is essentially taking place at the same time, your three hour long game is actually only several minutes of fighting "in universe".
It doesnt make anlogical sense for a unit to overwatch unit A in a panicked attempt to stall their charge, then turn around orderly and do the same to unit B.
It would make alot more sense if you got to choose to distribute yor overwatch fire againnst the different chargers.
However, I do think that even this option limits tactical decisionmaking.
In 7th, I'd have to choose to have my dreadnought eat up overwatch while risking a plasma shot to the face, or instead take the bolters and plasma to my terminators. Additionally, I would have to take into account the charge distance's required, terrain that might make my dreadnought hit at iniative 1, and also consider enemy initiative and cc capabilities.

I really enjoy 8th, but there are just a couple things I dislike about it.
>templates gone
>overwatch unlimited
>iniative removed (srsly, wtf. Was one of my favourite systems in the game. Trading speed for power, taking into account durability and etc.. made for an interesting back and forth with your opponent where you are both trying to maneuver your units against the right opponents)

Tl;dr
Stop being a faggot , user.
Overwatch was a mistake.

7th
>Landraider gets blown up by the first shot of the game
8th
>Landraiders always take a serious amount of firepower to put down

7th
>Unreasonable amount of time spent arguing over the precise direction the scatter die is facing and then arguing over how many models are under the template, and asking why the fuck that attack squig is so far off the base
8th
>No scatter attacks, no templates to cause confusion and everything is measured from the base

7th
>Tournament lists were about cramming as many overpowered formations as possible, preferably made of only the most broken of units, then organised into super-formations to reward you even more for paying with 9 riptides
8th
>Take what you want, but if you want to spam any units you're going to get fewer tricks to pull out of your sleeve in the form of CPs

7th
>Literally the worst balance in any edition of 40k ever except maybe 2nd
8th
>It's not that bad. Badly written, but holy shit, not *that* bad

7th
>Your crusaders hide behind your neophytes, your nobz hide behind your boyz, your flamers either hide behind your mooks and never fire or die instantly
8th
>GET OUT THE WAY ORKLETS NOB COMING THROUGH (although characters still hide in the back, come on GW)

7th
>Melee army
>I2
8th
>Fuck you I outmaneuvered you I hit first

Jokes on you my friends and I play 4th edition, and bring in anything interesting and balanced from later codexes.

The difference being that vehicles are large relatively cumbersome things where it makes sense to not need to abstract something like movement.

i.e. Compare how quickly you can turn around vs how quickly you can turn a car around. So in a system (like 7th) that didnt abstract things like vehicle facing, and as a result it makes sense to have restrictions like firing arcs on weapons be around.

Although in 8th with how vehicles are treated I'd probably agree with you because things like vehicle facing and stuff have gone out the window so why the fuck not.

Vehicles needed help in 7th, but they really threw the baby out with the bathwater in 8th. Now they're just glorified monstrous creatures. Which as a tankfag takes a lot of the enjoyment of the game away.

>no templates to cause confusion

the concept of "how many circles are within the larger circle" legitimately confused you, 40k may not be the right game for you.

>Now they're just glorified monstrous creatures. Which as a tankfag takes a lot of the enjoyment of the game away.

As another tankfag, I feel the complete opposite: Now that vehicles are treated the same as monstrous creatures, they lost a lot of the vulnerability that made vehicles absolutely fucking laughable things that, at best, got perma-stunned all game.

>the concept of "how many circles are within the larger circle" legitimately confused you, 40k may not be the right game for you.

To be fair, not just him but it was a cause of contention between lots of players.

If GW wanted to abstract, they really should have had some mechanism for "shoving" enemy units around that wasn't limited to tanks, maybe based off a strength difference between models or so.

Because let's be honest, how fucking awesome would it be to be able to use Bullgryns to bulldoze a path to an objective, or for Land Raiders to just slam enemy Warbuggies out of the way, or Carnifexes to actually be a living battering ram?

Oh yeah.

8th
>Cannot move within 1" of enemy aircraft, and cannot run under them, so they're basically a giant wall of "nope, can't be assaulted".

>they really threw the baby out with the bathwater in 8th

Way to read the whole thing. Or you saying that when you have the opportunity to rewrite ANY rules you want in regards to tanks. That the ONLY way to make tanks not suck horribly was to remove the things that are unique to tanks?

I remember at the start of 7th, it was Wave Serpent spam that was doing best in 40k due to the insanity of infinite-use Serpent Shields and Laser Lock. 5e Annihilation Barges were also crazy-undercosted. Both of these got the nerfbat, and the game skewed back towards bikes or mass-reserve rocket tag...

Marines got better vehicles though between the Gladius, or numerous "here, have POTMS" options. Genestealer Cults also got surprisingly workable mech, simply due to Rugged Construction. War Convo was good with what few vehicles it did have (Shroudpsalm Dragoons were a real pita), etc.

Had anyone went past "hurr, Imma Riptide Wing", the Armored Interdiction Cadre was also actually also rather nasty for its cost too. Cheap Iontides for twin-linked pieplates were a very unexpected form of cheddar.

In our grognard-laden hobby? Yeah, pretty much. The rules for monstrous creatures have been with us for some time now. A complete re-write of how vehicles work risked man-babys shitting their britches in protest. Now, to be fair, just axing the whole damn thing and turning vehicles into monsters STILL resulted in crybabies like you throwing all their toys out of the baby carriage. But I would argue this decision provoked LESS ire that it would have if they tried to REPLACE it. Instead they just cut the whole damn thing.

LOTR did this really well, pretty thematic, Trolls shoving dozens of men all over the place.

Just play 5th ed

Well those people are fags

How hard is it to roll a 4+ to settle shit that legitimately could go either way.

Hello sapient giraffe who is able to hover over the template directly over with precise deviation.

>relying on dice to excuse for badly designed mechanic

At that point, might as well play 4th since 5 th added the cancer of tlos

I think a "bull rush" USR could be a neat thing for certain units to have. Maybe "the unit can freely move through enemy units of smaller bases, with everything else working exactly the same as tank shock.

>cant tell how many shapes are inside another shape
>Badly designed mechanic

Pick one and only one. Next you're going to tell me that using a tapemeasure for movement and range is a badly designed mechanic because your fat sausage fingers cant measure properly

>not being a gentleman and giving your opponent the benefit of the doubt in these cases
>not being a gentlema capable of reasonbly discussing the differences with your opponent without getting salty
>not being a gentlemen to even the guy known to be a shitty fag about this stuff, and politely either ask a thrid party to resolve the isue or roll a 4+ on it
>not being a gentlemen and letting your opponent kill that one termagaunt more, knowing that one gaunt more or less isn't going to upset your game plan

In my store, you knew who the faggots were based on how they reacted to templates. The only people who gave me shit about templates and scatter distances/directions are the same people who would be just as bad mannered about the rest of the game (smudging charge distances/rerolling "cocked" dice that happen to be bad results/complaining about "you're such a cheesy fag, user, how dare you play a Landraider and 2 Dreadnoughts at 1500 points"/just being general asshats while playing). Interestingly enough, they usually were pretty shit at the game as well. Also, they're practically all chaosfags, but maybe thats just my store.

On the other hand, everyone else I've played is a GENTLEMAN about templates. I even discussed with an ork player during setup that I'd help him set up and move his ork boys for him to speed up the game, while placing them with 2 inches spacing if possible, and counting it as such wherever not possible due to things like models slipping off of terrain, etc. Was a great fucking guy, and a great fucking game.

Honestly, hex based movement and distance measuring has always been good.

Also scatter die is a shit mechanic. If you must use template, stick with infinity or warmahordes written-on-the-template style. Still inaccurate but easier and faster to manage.

You are at most 24" away from the template (centre of standard 6x4 table from nearest edge). Even if you are a manlet you could just get your phone out and take a picture from directly above the template, it's not difficult

Fact that you have to have gentlemen style resolution at all makes it garbage. Rules should be a neutral entity.

The problem is when there are 11 ork boys in the general area under the base, but the template is in the middle of the table so every player is looking at it at an angle, the template is above the models by several inches due to a nearby piece of cover/vehicle antenna/waagh banner and then people try to argue that this boy has his left toe under the template. That is going to cause a dispute, and that's ork boys. When it's a squad of terminators getting shot at by a knight, a terminator's base juust getting in under the template is a huge distinction as even 1 was a points investment. And nobody can claim any actual high ground, but nobody wants to do the roll off because they both think they're right, so the only solution is to argue it out or to pull a chair over, and then there's the "You moved it! You fucking moved it!" and it just takes forever sometimes. It's usually not too bad, but if you've never had an argument about how many models are under the template you much be playing with the most agreeable players in the world.
And even outside of arguments over templates they just took forever. I thought they were fun, flamer templates in particular I loved (although they caused the most arguments over #models), but they really did bog down the game and cause irritation.

>requiring additional devices beyond the game's basic required supplies to play the game

I was mostly apathetic for templates but you guys have proven how fucking low bar cancer you people are to gaming.

If the terminators toe is under the template then he's under the template. He kinda needs his foot
I'll never understand how people can argue about this stuff and again angles cease to be an issue with the good old picture from above method

You know what else works perfectly well if everyone involved is a nice agreeable person? COMMUNISM.
But people are not all nice and agreeable, and many are in a constant state of trying to fuck everyone else over. This is why we need fascism. Because the jews are going to eat your babies if we don't have systems in place to track them down. It's the glow in the dark niggers, in the red vans, you see them at night and you just keep driving, they step out in front of you you run them over and you keep driving, don't stop.

It's not required but it can prove to morons the exact inarguable truth of what's under the pie plate
I bet you physically roll the 200 dice for the conscript blob instead of doing it digitally to save everyone from dying of boredom every shooting phase

The Oberoni fallacy rears its ugly head yet again.

I agree with you. It shouldn't need a gentleman style resolution.

The point I'm trying to make is that the template problem is more about the players than the mechanic. I honestly don't particularly like templates, but I still would prefer them to randomized shots. The randomizing a mechanic for the sake of simplicity and streamlining annoys me. There's actually an interesting thread about houseruling this issue, go check it out.

I prefer 8th to 7th massively, but I really dislike all the random elements to the game like damage and shots, just like I disliked randomness in 7th for example with he stomp-table or vehicle damge chart.

You're an idiot. Humans will behave however they wish no matter the context.

I'm still mad about obliterators

8th was a step forward in some spots and a step back in other spots.

>everything else
laughingdaemonettes.jpeg

>digitally
>mfw
If you are bringing 200 conscripts I want you to roll 200 dice fucker

Read the fecking post, if two players are looking at a template at 60 degree angles to one player the ork boy is a few inches clear of the template and to the other his toe is underneath. If you're only doing one template a turn, talking it out or getting the phone out isn't too bad, but if somebody is shitting out 20 missiles or is running artillery spam taking 20 pictures a turn and leafing through all of them is bloody tedious. And, of course, you have assholes who sperg out when you go "ehh, I think it's 8 not 9" and refuse to roll off/take a picture/pull a goddamn chair over. I do generally try to be nice like virtuesignalling over here but it's bloody difficult and when somebody claims a small blast is somehow covering 5 meganobz you have to fight that.

>muh /pol/
Kek

>like I ever played against fags like that again
>it's another "user doesn't know how to make friends with people" - episode
Srsly man, you know you don't have to be a dick to people you don't know, just because you don't know them. Its a fucking board game. Stop being an autist.

Large blast templates should have stayed to give artillary and stuff a realistic feel still. For small stuff like space marine missile launchers fuck that the D6 system is way better.

>taking that post seriously
I have much confusion upon me

>posting a gif
>kek
>calling people dicks, lonely and autists
>...
>...
>...
>confusion
>profit
Just as planned

>vehicles only died to skyhammer and eldar wraiths

Bullshit, vehicles died to all commonly played armies. They were literally just ways to eat up one turn of shooting while moving 12" or more. You said it yourself, why take infantry in transports when you can just take bikes and other equally fast units that can jink and don't explode. And don't even try to pretend like "grav skyhammer" is the only way to kill Land Raiders. Grav battle company was far more common, and melta and haywire and all other sorts of shit is everywhere, hell just immobilize the thing and it's worthless.

Why even play this game?

Because you wouldn't be able to show off your painted toys otherwise, and they'd just be useless wastes of money and time.

>people playing with unpainted miniatures/proxies/coins

Those guys are just double retards. The game isn't even worth playing for the rules. It's literally only for enjoying the painted miniatures and terrain and making scenes and battles. The competition-focused aspect of it is just a cancerous tumor that cropped up afterward, much like competitive Smash Brothers.

...

Models are well-made and fun to paint and konvert
Playing beer and pretzel with close friends is a blast
Setting is interesting, factions are fun to get into and make your dudes
More hours of enjoyment per euro than many things, it's actually cheaper than most drugs that way

So it requires you to have a sense of fun. No wonder Veeky Forums hates it, I don't know why so many people here talk about it so much when they all clearly hate it.

Warhammer 40k is primarily a toy collecting hobby for kids and pesudo-kids. Gaming is a secondary concern as for as ANYBODY is concerned. Wait, scratch that, fluff material like books/comics/movies/etc are secondary while gaming gets bumped to tertiary.

Think about it, nobody in their right mind would actually play a 40k game if the models were replaced with cardboard cutouts discs.

People would just fuck off and play another boardgame.

Chill man. We're not as different as you may think, and I didn't say it was the only way to kill them, as much as the most effective way to stop them before they actually got to meaningfully contribute to the game. (Then again, they didn't meaningfully contribute, so bleh).

I would argue that Land Raiders got worse overall in 8th. Yes, they're tougher to kill or neutralize overall. However, they got a notable point hike without as much of a corresponding increase in damage output. They can actually be surrounded and tarpitted in melee by fucking Hormagaunts, but the real wtf is that since Terminators can now fish for Assault values from Deep Strike, or nonTerminator units can charge from a Rhino...what was the point of a Land Raider again?

To make Land Raiders better in 7e, you make Terminators 2 wounds base like 8e, and make Grav stun and immobilize on 6s. Bam, that's most of the Land Raider issues right there alone. Yes, D Wraithknights are still a problem, but nobody took that variant for tournament play when the Deathshroud was around the corner.

>casual players with fluffy list
that's me and I avoid spergs who think I want to waste my time putting models on the table so their cheese list can wipe me out.
>7th
>build fluffy infantry only guard army
>25 min drive to town to have a 1500 game
>guy brings a knight house hold because he said he didn't want to pack a bunch of models up.
>lives 5mins away
I told him he was going to go get another army or i'm not going to waste my time placing models only to pick them up

Stun instead of Immobilize, I mean. Mondays.

>I would argue that Land Raiders got worse overall in 8th. Yes, they're tougher to kill or neutralize overall. However, they got a notable point hike without as much of a corresponding increase in damage output.

Literally everything you said is wrong.

Land Raiders got the LEAST point hikes (read: nearly none, except for the wargear costs like everyone else) despite getting tougher, unlike Rhinos or Drop Pods or RBs or Predators which all got massive price hikes percentage wise, and the basic Land Raider is now extremely good at killing things in shooting unlike before. Four lascannons that each can do 6 wounds isn't better than 2 TL shots?

What do I spam as Orks to win?

I take (and have always taken) a maxed out infantry platoon exactly because I like laughing as I roll a shitload of dice. Eat shit fag.

I hate that its "meta" now. At least everyone knows Ive been doing it for years.

But WHFB players are still around. They're even on this very board!

10/10 creepypasta

I largely think 8e is an improvement of base rules but the change to template weapons does bug me to no end. I also dislike how even the most powerful psykers have barely any options.

The other things I'm mentioning are not necessarily wrong though. Nobody (unless you met that one player that insisted on using the Land Raider Ares) really cared about the Land Raider as an MBT (I suppose you "could" pull a Creed with a Crusader with a Lucifer Taskforce if you were feeling cheeky). They cared about it as a delivery system (though this is a holdover from 5e when Thundershield Terminators were more viable). Considering the changes to Deep Strike and Transport disembark though (no more 6" move + 6" disembark), that part also got relatively nerfbatted, even before you bring up the fact that driving your Land Raider to deliver units into melee ironically makes it more vulnerable to being assaulted and surrounded, preventing said disembark in the first place.

You should probably play a game of 8E before randomly talking about stuff.

Killa kans, squads of 30 orks, Weird boys , kustom force fields. Gretchin and Big guns

also try to take up your entier deployment feild with bodies

At that point your opponent will probably get tired of you rolling dice.

Bonus points if you just take a bucket full of die.

I've tried it. The game is full of bugs and I'm not talking Tyranids.

If you have the points, one Ghazkullthrak

daisy chain each indivutal squad to thraka in a flower blossom formation one second let me draw a picture.

heaven or hell mode
all gretchin no boys, they still get the extra attack from gazh