Whenever Elric of Melnibone is statted for D&D, his alignment is given as Chaotic Evil. But the more I read the stories the more I get the impression of a honestly pretty okay guy constantly put in difficult situations. He doesn't always solve them in the best possible way, but he tries his best and angsts a lot when it doesn't work that great.
What kind of a Chaotic Evil asshole would ever bother to angst about anything?
He's Chaotic Good, Neutral at the very worst.
Other urls found in this thread:
youtube.com
youtube.com
en.wikipedia.org
twitter.com
Here, let me do it for you all, because if some idiot is going to do it anyway, it might as well be this one:
ALIGNMENT IS A STUPID OUTDATED CONCEPT THAT IS ONLY GOOD WHEN IT'S USED BY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE AND INTELLIGENT PEOPLE WOULDN'T BE THE ONES WHO ABUSE IT.
I would actually be interested in seeing Eric's color identity though.
blue/black/red
>I would actually be interested in seeing Eric's color identity though
Red and black. I don't imagine there'd be any dispute on that.
Elric would be But Stormbringer would just be black/red.
You are aware he is the emperor of a nation of murder elves who tortured and bleed slaves to death in order to swallow their life essence even before he got a vampiric sword, right?
Elric cares about two things.
His waifu. His nation. Himself. In that order. He routinely nurders and tortures Innocents for his benefit. He made deals with primordial gods of chaos and evil. He is the walking embodiment of edgy tryhard.
he's kind of a control freak and is really good at magic, so blue too.
>Two things
>Lists 3
CHAOSSSS
yeah no
He's a big softie who constantly whines about how killing is badwrong and how he really wishes people weren't evil and he's really ashamed of everything he does because he has no self-control. Also he spends more time worrying about his buttbuddy Moonglum than about his girlfriend.
That "waifu/nation/himself" characterization is strictly from the new comic.
>That "waifu/nation/himself" characterization is strictly from the new comic.
For the record, the new comic was approved by Moorcock, and he said it did things he wished he could've thinked to do himself.
In OD&D he would be chaotic, his stories were part of the inspiration for the Law, Neutral, Chaotic alignment scale. At the time Chaos was a very rough stand in for evil. It was more about allegiance to the cosmic forces of chaos than morality but also represented someone who fought primarily for themselves and believed that the ends justify the means. They were capable of heinous actions and treachery but they could do it with good intentions.
Chaos was a rough combination of modern Evil and Chaotic alignments and could be either or both.
When good and evil were introduced Elric was just sort of stuck to the furthest corner of the Chaos spectrum because being an agent of cosmic chaos was sort of a major thing for him.
Elric being CE is more about preserving a theme than explaining his character. It's a character sheet aesthetic not a moral statement.
Also there are a lot of fags out there who would whine about him being labelled good in any official sense. Minor moral ambiguity and angst are kind of his thing and giving him the label of "a pretty alright dude" takes a lot of the edge off.
Doesn't mean it overwrites the characterisation from the books.
Good-evil axis was a mistake.
Given that he had used a battle cry of "Blood and souls for my Lord Arioch", and that Arioch was, in setting, a god of CHAOS , he started out as chaotic.
He eventually became an agent of balance, or true neutral, after rejecting the stasis that was Law.
Good and evil are irrelevant, as Moorcock's setting focused on Law Vs Chaos, with the gods' position on any good/bad spectrum dependant on which plane of the multiverse they manifested on.
If you enjoyed Elric, listen to this.
You can be good at magic without being Blue. Heck, I mean there are 4 other colours good at magic.
The Control Freak part does lean white, blue or black though.
it's not just that, he's also A HUGE NERD and blue is the color of nerds.
>He is the walking embodiment of edgy tryhard.
That is certainly not the case. He's just a huge nerd with lots of issues.
And if you honestly think the new series isn't gonna make him go through growth as a character, then you need to read more books.
>His waifu.
Which one? ;^)
He isn't. He's the archetypal angsty Mary Sue but he doesn't try to be edgy. On the contrary he's as close to a goody-two-shoes as a Melnibonéan gets.
>Mary Sue
How in fuck is he a Sue? He gets his shit kicked in all the time.
Yeah, hence me agreeing about the control freak part. Control Freak/Nerd pushes him into blue.
I'm just a bit pedantic about people saying 'Good at magic = blue' due to bad experiences with smug blue players.
And he's also the most powerful mortal to walk the earth aside from maybe Theleb K'aarna.
On top of being a power fantasy, he's also super-handsome full of glamorized pathos. The way his state of mind, beauty and tragic fate are described by Moorcock is almost fetishistic and masturbatory. He really really wants to sell you on that tragic anti-hero swag and it shows.
>He really really wants to sell you on that tragic anti-hero swag and it shows.
Maybe so. But no rational person wants to be in his position.
Not even himself.
He's a drug addict that constantly fucks up in those very adventures and his bad decisions get everyone he ever cared about killed or worse, having their soul devoured by his own sword.
Moorcock may love the drama but it's clear that Elric isn't a Sue.
Good is not always nice.
Evil is not always obvious flaming asshole.
It still doesn't make him a Sue. Very few people in the world don't hate him, and even those he does manage to befriend rarely think he's the most awesome guy walking around. Neither them nor the narrative ever tries to paint him as being constantly right.
He's no Mary Sue.
>But no rational person wants to be in his position
No rational person would want to be in the position of Superman, does that prevent him from being a huge Mary Sue?
it's clear that Elric is a Sue. The people he cares about are clearly and admittedly introduced to us so that they can die because Elric fucked up, or so that they can hugbox him while he shows off his DEEP tormented soul. They don't matter as characters aside from MAYBE Moonglum at times when he's doing his own thing. But the world literally revolves around Elric to the point where very few characters have significant interactions with each other that don't directly pertain to Elric.
The quality of the writing and of the plot is hindered by Moorcock's boner for Elric. That is fundamentally what makes a character a Mary Sue. When the author fucks up his own story for the sake of his character.
see
when a character consistently makes the story worse because the author show him off too much, he is a mary sue.
>No rational person would want to be in the position of Superman
You need to meet more people. Who the hell doesn't want to be Superman?
No one wants to be Elric. Not even Elric.
>When the author fucks up his own story for the sake of his character.
That's not a Sue. Least not the way most people understand the concept.
>when a character consistently makes the story worse because the author show him off too much, he is a mary sue.
Where has this ever been the case in the ELRIC saga?
>No rational person would want to be in the position of Superman, does that prevent him from being a huge Mary Sue?
There's an incredibly large amount of children, and adults for that matter, who would most definitely want to be in supermans position. Most people who wouldn't want to be superman would instead like to be another similarly powerful superhero.
You seemed to have just parroted the argument without thinking through that you might have been wrong.
>when a character consistently makes the story worse because the author show him off too much, he is a mary sue.
en.wikipedia.org
"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment."
You're quite in the wrong there, not to mention the fact that he's, you know, the titular character.
>That's not a Sue. Least not the way most people understand the concept.
Welcome to Veeky Forums where everything's made up and the word you use don't matter. "Mary Sue" is now an umbrella term that encompasses self-inserts, characters that are unique for the sake of being unique, characters that are good at something or are powerful, characters that have succeeded at any task ever or have overcome an obstacle, and characters you, personally, do not like.
>Who the hell doesn't want to be Superman?
rational people who don't want to deal with the near-crippling grief of losing one's home planet and with the crushing responsibility of having to protect another for no good reason.
People certainly want to have Superman's powers, just like some people certainly want to own Stormbringer. But being Superman is just as much of a fucked-up situation as being Elric. Considering all the retarded and horrible shit that happened to Superman over the years, I'd argue that it's actually MORE rational to want to be Elric.
>when a character consistently makes the story worse because the author show him off too much, he is a mary sue.
In many stories, some of which are obviously rushed and unnecessary, Moorcock pretty much just pulls bad guys out of his ass to have them fight Elric, or good guys for the sole purpose of having Elric get sad and emotional when they die.
This is a general issue with the Elric saga that stems from the fact that Moorcock pretty much wrote it as he went, mostly because readers liked the character so much they wanted more of him. As a result, few things are properly introduced before happening and the dramatic pacing is really clunky, because even though it's presented to us as a grand and cohesive epic, it's written like a monster of the week show.
>There's an incredibly large amount of children, and adults for that matter, who would most definitely want to be in supermans position. Most people who wouldn't want to be superman would instead like to be another similarly powerful superhero.
At one point in history, there were even more people who wanted to be Sasuke, whose entire purpose (much like Elric) is being a fucked-up character.
Also children aren't rational people.
Wikipedia (and anyone who happens to disagree with me) is in the wrong because those traits are often applied to characters who aren't recognized as Mary Sues.
My definition is coherent with the common use of the term.
>But being Superman is just as much of a fucked-up situation as being Elric. Considering all the retarded and horrible shit that happened to Superman over the years, I'd argue that it's actually MORE rational to want to be Elric.
Are you insane? Superman is the epitome of good. He's canonically, the greatest beacon of hope in the universe?
Elric? He's a pawn of fate and his grand destiny is to kill everyone he cares about, be responsible for the remaking of his own world then being stabbed in the gut by the very sword that brought him misery.
FUUUUCCCKK
THAT
Why is Moorcock such a salty little shit? Some time ago, I found him on the internet, having a huge circlejerk with his fans about how The Witcher was totally plagiarizing him and listing basically every fictional work after Elric with even the slightest similar elements as stolen.
And behind that umbrella term, there is a common root problem: the fact that the character is being showcased to the point where it negatively impacts the story's quality.
This is the true criterium
>At one point in history, there were even more people who wanted to be Sasuke, whose entire purpose (much like Elric) is being a fucked-up character.
Sasuke is edge done for the sake of it.
Elric is a byronic hero. He's a genuinely nice person that can't catch a break.
Wrong.
The true criteriums to Mary Sue have been given many times (for instance in the wiki page earlier), and none of them have ever included this bit.
That makes, at worst, for a bad character. Not a Sue.
>NUH UH I'm still using it right because reasons!
Dude, just admit you're using a term incorrectly. It's a lot less embarrassing than this.
>the fact that the character is being showcased to the point where it negatively impacts the story's quality.
Yes but it also correlated to HOW that character was portrayed.
The actual Mary Sue, could do no wrong. It's pure wish fulfillment. There's no such thing with this series. Because you shouldn't want to be Elric. He's not even a power fantasy. He's a drugged up nerd who only gets the ability to even leave his island home was by getting a vampiric sword that necessitates him to feed off of souls.
>Are you insane? Superman is the epitome of good. He's canonically, the greatest beacon of hope in the universe?
He also gets tortured, beaten up, brainwashed, mutilated, and put through horrible dilemmas and drama so often that Elric's life looks easy by comparison.
He has fun more often. But he goes through a LOT more shit than Elric. The only reason why Elric's life SEEMS to suck more is because he isn't as resilient.
If you know what's good for you, you'll choose to be Elric.
FUUUUUUUCK
YOU
for not having any idea what you're talking about
Neither Superman nor Elric is a Mary Sue. I have no idea what kind of a moron would claim they were.
>rational people who don't want to deal with the near-crippling grief of losing one's home planet
He was a baby when it was destroyed, he's hardly going to angst over something he doesn't remember. Unless that's now a thing for him to do, angst over people he never knew, when he has a whole planet of adoring fans and legions of hot women who'd just at the chance to carry his super genes.
>and with the crushing responsibility of having to protect another for no good reason.
There's no inherent need for him to do so, he can literally just fuck off into space whenever he feels like it.
>Considering all the retarded and horrible shit that happened to Superman over the years,
He chose the thug life, that being a key difference.
>I'd argue that it's actually MORE rational to want to be Elric.
You're reaching now.
>At one point in history, there were even more people who wanted to be Sasuke, whose entire purpose (much like Elric) is being a fucked-up character.
Sasuke is edgy purely to be edgy, and for ratings. You're also either deluded or an idiot if you think a character from chinese cartoons is more popular than superman.
>Wikipedia (and anyone who happens to disagree with me) is in the wrong because
Oh boy here we go "I cannot possibly be wrong because"
>those traits are often applied to characters who aren't recognized as Mary Sues.
"Some mary sues aren't universally recognized as mary sues, even if they are."
>My definition is coherent with the common use of the term.
No it is not, your use of the term has nothing to do with its actual definition.
Elric is wish fulfillment for angsty teenagers who like the glamor of pathos and self-destruction.
You shouldn't want to be Elric, just like you shouldn't want to kill yourself, but look at how many thousands of teenagers thought that suicide was cool in the 2000s.
Fuck that, look at how may millions of people wanted to be like Jesus throughout history.
>If you know what's good for you, you'll choose to be Elric.
Oh great. Lord knows i always this to happen to me.
As Elric often observed, he's the agent of Balance just because the choices he makes happen to line up with a cosmic plan. Elric, for all his woe-is-me posturing, is just as free as anybody. if he wasn't a wuss, he could conquer all of the world for his own sake and live a great life.
Sasuke is edgy purely to be edgy, and for ratings. You're also either deluded or an idiot if you think a character from chinese cartoons is more popular than superman.
Naruto was certainly more prominent in the mid2000s than Superman. Nobody gave a shit about Supes except for aging comic book nerds back then.
And I just explained you that the wikipedia definition of the term does not match the phenomenon it's supposed to describe.
t. Person who doesn't know what he's talking about.
That's fucking nothing compared to getting killed by Doomsday.
Bait-o
>I'm gonna accuse him of my own faults in such a blatantly stupid and oblivious manner that he won't know how to respond!
think again
>I'd argue that it's actually MORE rational to want to be Elric.
Who can honestly say this?
Doomsday is gonna kill you good. Stormbringer kills you, eats your soul and cackles at the the entire universe.
What the fuck are you on about?
No, seriously, it's fucking nothing.
You got me good but this is the last (you) you're getting.
Elric isn't a Sue and if you honestly believe it, you're wrong and should check yourself in a mental hospital.
>inspired order/chaos in D&D
It had help.
Explain to me how getting killed by Doomsday is worse.
Yes and no. Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't Chaos in the book nature and magic with Law being societal advancement and technology?
>eats your soul
big deal.
Also we aren't talking about you, puny human, getting instantly crushed by Doomsday, we're talking about how Supes got slowly, gruesomely beaten up over the course of several hours.
I repeat:Elric has it easy. His life only seems to suck more than Supe's because he has a natural tendency to self-pity and worry a lot whereas Superman is optimistic.
I think alignments are a bit too middle class and Tory for Elric.
Nothing says Chaotic Evil can't have friends, user.
here
>getting this mad over being proven wrong
>big deal.
Stormbringer, i know it's you behind these posts. Now fuck off, Chaos cunt.
>I repeat:Elric has it easy.
>He also gets tortured, beaten up, brainwashed, mutilated, and put through horrible dilemmas and drama so often that Elric's life looks easy by comparison.
He also has a lot more books than elric does, and when when your character is pretty much the ultimate life form you need to make sufficiently strong challenges for him to overcome.
Which is why he's seen so much by comparison, elric is a mere mortal, one who has to rely on either copious amounts of drugs or an evil soul sucking sword with a taste for those he loves in order to function like a normal person.
>But he goes through a LOT more shit than Elric. The only reason why Elric's life SEEMS to suck more is because he isn't as resilient.
Because superman is exactly that, superman. The power level difference is plain as day. Elric isn't nearly as resilient as superman.
>FUUUUUUUCK
>YOU
>for not having any idea what you're talking about
t. angsty superman fan
He's literally at the mercy of cosmic forces beyond his understanding at every turn, take his sword for a glaring example.
>Sasuke is wish fulfillment for angsty teenagers who like the glamor of pathos and self-destruction.
ftfy
>Naruto was certainly more prominent in the mid2000s than Superman.
What the fuck am I reading.
>And I just explained you that the wikipedia definition of the term does not match the phenomenon it's supposed to describe.
Except it does perfectly, no matter how much you want to be in denial over it.
>Also we aren't talking about you, puny human, getting instantly crushed by Doomsday, we're talking about how Supes got slowly, gruesomely beaten up over the course of several hours.
Bait, several hours of torture is nothing compared to that.
>we're talking about how Supes got slowly, gruesomely beaten up over the course of several hours
So what about the eternity of torture and suffering that came after that? Still nothing compared to measly four hours?
>Naruto was certainly more prominent in the mid2000s than Superman.
Where am i?
>d I just explained you that the wikipedia definition of the term does not match the phenomenon it's supposed to describe.
In other words " I'm full of shit and i know it but i just want to save face"
I repeat once again: Elric has it easy compared to a Mary Sue like Supes.
I know why Supes goes through more shit, but that doesn't erase the fact that his life sucks more.
And I mean mentally resilient.
As for Stormbringer, was it ever stated that something special happens to the souls it eats? Or are you simply projecting some Warhammer lore onto it?
>big deal.
t. Yyrkoon
Kinda the problem right here.
Both are sources, but both portray Law/Chaos in very different lights. Mixing them together haphazardly results in issues.
Alighment, like everything else in DnD, is something that is fine as long as the DM puts in some fucking forethought.
As for Elric, the 'agent of chaos' bit is overhyped. Really, the Stormbringer is an agent of Chaos, which he's trapped in an abusive relationship with. Sometimes his adventures feature him working for Chaos, sometimes against.
Technically, the very last story, he's basically on the side of Order. But then, after the victory, Stormbringer pulls a fast one to make sure that Chaos gets to keep fighting.
Most of the rest of this thread just sounds like people trying so hard to not be edgy that they sneak up on edgy from the other direction. And/or people yelling at Grandpa Moorcock, which is appropriate, since even in his old age, Moorcock can't stop yelling at Grandpa Tolkien, despite him being long dead.
Wikipedia simply sums up A FEW traits that SOME Mary sues, as well as non-Mary sues, happen to share, without explaining why SOME characters who have these traits are labelled as Mary Sues whereas some aren't.
>the eternity of torture and suffering
Isn't that just some 40k lore about Slaanesh?
Elric is for suffering.
suffering is cool. Every emo kid will tell you that. Every hardcore Protestant too
Being miserable builds character.
SUFFERING
That's the premise of the Elric saga, but it turns out that Elric's character is "being fashionably miserable" (while also having a huge dicksword and perfect hair)
His waifus are dropping like flies. He just should become gay.
He considered that
but he only had a skinnyfat ginger on hand so he didn't go gay
ETERNAL SUFFERING
Nobody is safe in Elric. And the Melibonian himself is only "safe" because Stormbringer wills it.
Reminds me of how Cain is constantly whining about how he's a coward and just trying to flee but ends up saving uncounted numbers of imperial lives over and over and over through his actions.
Coward by thought, hero by deed? Elric is Soft of thought and cruel of action.
In both cases the narrative keeps it ambiguous just how much those characters are doing their things by choice, and how much is the universe throwing constant bullshit at their way.
Or how about wormfood?
>big deal.
Wormfood you say?
so uh do you guys only talk about the comic book version of elric or what
>Isekai shit
It's easier to display our arguments in images than in text.
Comic book Elric is also book Elric. New french comic is different.
>Normal guy dies trying to save someone's life, is transported to a parallel world. Said world is a blatant ripoff of popular fantasy at the time, down to having entire locations from Tolkien with the names unchanged.
>Immediately gets superpowers and cool equipment, and has zero trouble fitting into the new society (one of his powers is the ability to speak the language).
>First enemy is a smug bishonen who manipulates time
>Has a beastfolk, a fairy, and even the main villain all lusting over him. For bonus points the beastfolk is from a species that's beautiful but hates romance.
>The best way to advance the agenda of cosmic good is to let the author's home country have more powerful weapons
Amazing.
They need to make an anime out of this.
They need to make SOMETHING out of this stuff.
Classic fantasy is where it's at. Tolkien is boring.
>I repeat:Elric has it easy.
This is the dumbest thing Veeky Forums has said in a while.
What the fuck are you on about?
>As for Stormbringer, was it ever stated that something special happens to the souls it eats?
It's destroyed. Rend asunder by the spirit of the sword and devoured. It also has the power to keep it within itself in eternal torment.
Elric isn't a Mary Sue and i have no idea what gives you this assumption.
If anything, he's the dictionary definition of a Byronic protagonist.
Came here to post this.
He's implied to be a foundling out of magicworld.
He doesn't use his muh modern man schtick for much; it's like a knowledge skill he can roll, but he doesn't craft anything and all his fighting is done with sword and lance and fist.
It is implied that it's one of the Manhattan Project scientists they're smuggling out of Denmark, but that's the full extent.
Cover teaser aside, Isekai is definitely unfair.
this is a safe for work board user!
How about instead you got kill your wife Elric, I'll help! Maybe throw a few friends in too? You have it too easy edgyboy!
I hate you.
Fuck you Stormbringer.
WHY ARE YOU SUCH A CUNT?
...
Hello brother.