Martials vs Casters

>but then you've got these stories of knights triumphing against gigantic, flying, fire-breathing dragons.
They wewereer actually rarely bigger than a dog in most artwork

>What can regular humans do against that?

Generally casters are rare, either due to the level of study/education needed or because their abilities are inherent.

Casters can only fireball so many men in the time it takes to close with them. Even if they're powerful enough to wipe out entire armies, being attacked constantly would rapidly fatigue them too, even if they repelled every attack with ease, a few thousand men attacking groups of ten every half hour or so will exhaust even a godlike caster in a matter of days, simply by denying them a chance to rest.

That's not even taking into account that martials can usually get hold of magic-resistant equipment or have access to non-magical but still superhuman feats.

>They can't do it in the only version of D&D, out of 6-8, that I am personally familiar with.
Naw, user, go fuck yourself.

He said "stories" not "artwork". Medieval artists didn't have a great track record with scale and perspective.

They can't do it in any version of D&D.

>you've got these stories of knights triumphing against gigantic, flying, fire-breathing dragons.
>a real world human would struggle taking on a bear on their own

Knights Errant are rarely depicted engaging dragons mano a mano with their bare hands.

A real world human with a destrier and lance will shit all over a bear in pretty much any scenario that doesn't involve the bear ambushing them.

>wizards can kill small groups of people standing close together when they're awake, rested, prepared and can see them

wew
It's time for ambushes, assassinations, and archers, everywhere. Will the mundanes lose a few people when a wizard happens to have a ward or alarm up now and then? Absolutely. But if it takes 10 assassination attempts to kill a wizard, and you have 100 assassins, it's a bargain.

>ambushes
divination
>assassinations
divination
>archers
there's like a dozen anti-arrow spells

The wizards have whatever counters you want them to have user. If you want them to be vulnerable, give them vulnerabilities.

Here's an easy one: even the simplest spells take at least 10 seconds to cast. Early modern soldiers have guns.

The idea behind that old art was that dragons were terrifyingly badass nigh-invincible killing machines, but were rendered almost nothing before the power of God in the form of pious devotion. It's symbolism, people were still scared shitless by rumors of dragons.

>Charging a bear
>Not using an arbalest like actual masterrace knights

It's like you want to lose a horse to a dumb beast.

In what setting?

Ive always liked the idea that there is no cap on human ability in fantasy settings, epic level martials are basically demi gods.

That is not the case in Basic, in all of it's variations, 2e until you break past epic and even then you have a solid run for money, 4e period, and 5e has yet to be seen how it will shake out in the end.
No, user, your fantasy is simply that.

Sorry about that. In my setting, magic casters are a rare occurrence. Most are commoners that can't afford the education required wield their powers in a disciplined, relatively-safe and practical manner. The potency of their powers grows from birth and 'stabilises' around adulthood, and is inherited from their parents. Most magic-casters are comparable to low-level D&D wizards, unable to accomplish much.

The top-rate wizards aren't overpowered. They can't summon asteroids from the sky, and there are no omnipotent gods with which they can smite people with. For example, their 'healing' is just accelerating cell growth/repair, and doing it too much can cause malignant cancer. Their strength with fire spells are comparable to being a walking M2 flamethrower, but their flames aren't any hotter.

Science also applies. For example, my players regularly deflect lightning/electricity-based spells by sticking daggers/swords/metal rods into the ground a safe distance away from their characters.

wizard that

Depends on the system. Divination doesn't give guaranteed results in all editions.

Plus, every slot spent on divination is a slot not spent on battle magic.

Another caster v martial thread? Time to post my homebrew! This game features casters and martials held in near perfect balance, while keeping them entirely different.

>My wizards are like low-level D&D wizards and not all that impressive
>Casters can toss fireballs, shoot lightning, levitate boulders, raise the dead, heal themselves

So which one is it? Anyway, if the case is that at most you can expect them to cause some mayhem in their immediate space, just shoot them in the face with something.

My players and regular people in the setting are encouraged to be tactically-intelligent. They come up with some nice stuff from time to time, and it's nice. Suicidal frontal charges aren't preferred over the classic smallpox 'blanket', poisoned drink, assassination in an enemy tent, or convincing friendly bombards to redirect their fire to the general vicinity of a spotted battlemage.

>Plus, every slot spent on divination is a slot not spent on battle magic.
Except they have more than one person's worth of slots.

Which part of 'drown them in bodies' have you missed?

Do you know how many spell slots wizards get?

And how many spell slots? Quantity is a quality all its own.

Then why are you handing out bonus points for not using those tactics to handle the scenario?

What exactly is the point of this thread if you already know how to do it in your setting and there's no real problem or imbalance and it works for your group? Just confused, is all.

Nothing.
This is going to look like dominions 4. Most military resources are pumped into training wizards. Armies without mage support get wrecked like modern armies without guns.

OP here. A lot of countries in my setting that have developed national armies (similarly to Gustavian Sweden) have soldiers (functioning like modern snipers) dedicated to spotting and sniping battlemages when they don't expect it.

Basically I came here because I need ideas. I thought that maybe someone on this thread will think up something new that my players would coincidentally use.

The game flows a lot smoother for everyone when I have an idea of how to satisfyingly react to something in advance instead of spending 10-20 minutes thinking on the spot.

26.

You're asking the question in a very vague manner that requires a lot of elaboration and skirting dangerously close to martials vs casters arguments which never produce anything worthwhile.

It honestly sounds like you know enough about these things to make it work and have considered most of the things anyone here is going to suggest. If you already know how all the underhanded means work and direct assaults are just direct assaults, and have a handle on your wizards' powers, I don't really know what I could tell you.

I dunno. Maybe they'll try herding dozens of war dogs at the wizards?

Do Wizards prepare spells in your game, op?

I ran a 1st editon D&D campaign for years, transitioning to 2nd, and I didn't find mages hard to contain at all. Admittedly we only tended to play to 10th-12 levels before restarting but throw in enough magic resistant critters and golems and martials suddenly became very relevant. Limit the ability to mages to find any spell they want and you restrict their power, too. Yeah, some mages were hard to get to because of things like Mirror Image on top of Stoneskin but at the levels we played at they were hardly invincible.

Which means you've answered your own question in the OP. How do these soldiers defeat wizards? Through learning how to identify and eliminate wizards from a long distance.

What was the point of this thread?

>
Science also applies. For example, my players regularly deflect lightning/electricity-based spells by sticking daggers/swords/metal rods into the ground a safe distance away from their characters.

There's nothing sciencey about this, considering the way lightning works in fantasy as some sort of a directed magical attack is already against all laws of physics and seriously misinteprets what lightning is and why it strikes.

Why does putting up a piece of metal help against some sort of a magical lightning strike that can be directed at the caster's desired target, already violating the principles of how lightning strikes work?

>What can regular humans do against that?
We've discussed this:
1. Use extreme levels of skill.
2. Use charm to utilize the skill of others.
3. Use superior knowledge, gear, technology, and beastary.
4. Use magic and/or magic accessories.

>Basically I came here because I need ideas. I thought that maybe someone on this thread will think up something new that my players would coincidentally use.
So the real question is:
I am not good at improvising, what are some of the ways I can expect my players to use to defeat NPC wizards so that I might anticipate them?
That's a kind of thread some anons might fun to hash out.
Good luck.

Easy. You shoot them with arrows, and then they die.

The secret wizards don't want you to know is that each wizard only knows a single spell. The bargain they make with satan for magic is a simple deal. One soul to trade, one spell to learn.

So a group of wizards is dangerous, but a single wizard can either heal OR throw fireballs OR stop arrows. Once you realize the one and only spell that Satan gave them, you just have to play around that. Sometimes this means throwing your men into a meat grinder until one of them gets a shot off on the defenseless wizard, but that's the price you pay.

This is the way it works in absolutely all fictional settings that not only have been written, but can ever be written. Anyone who says otherwise is a servant of Satan trying to deceive you. Do not believe his lies.

I hope that settles the matter.

Maybe magic lightning works like an electrolaser - a directed high-conductivity channel

In which case, to reduce lighting damage you need to make it ground through something other than you. Thick boots might help.

If you wanted to design an-anti-wizard outfit, maybe something like an asbestos surcoat/cape ensemble with silver or copper thread/fixings on it, and thick sturdy boots - you don't catch on fire unless there's a fuel source being poured on you, and lightning earths around your outside rather than through your armour (though enough padding between you and your armour might do that naturally, but it might get hot)

Magic works best on things that have been affected by magic before. Matter itself seems to remember its touch.

So a warrior who abstains from all magic, uses no magic items or mystical elixirs, can shrug off spells like the parlor tricks that they are. And a sword of pure, mundane steel, crafted through time and by honest hard work, can pierce magical wards if wielded by such a man.

>Cast a divination spell
>Learn you're going to be ambushed on your way to the battle
>Cower inside your tower all day instead
>Your side loses

>wizards wat do?
Conan.

Are you the kind of retard who'd do this? It's no wonder you feel so insecure about wizards.

The answer is to just change your route.

If your players come up with some clever tactic to defeat your spellcaster using their mundane abilities, then you should just let them.

Then you can adapt and see if that's a feasible enough strategy that other wizards would be prepared for it, and they just got lucky, or if it's genuinely something there wouldn't be a great counter for.

Just going to say though, the sort of game where the DM says it's going to be no/low magic, everyone rolls up with martials, and then suddenly every other enemy is a min-maxed wizard is a terrible game. Nobody likes that sort of bait and switch, especially if you're using 3.5 style magic where casters are gods. Having magic be NPC only is fine, but only if the players sign up for it and know that they won't be missing out on too much or be getting curbstomped because you customized every wizard to perfectly defeat them.

>The answer is to just change your route.
>Change your route
>Instead of going down the road you're wandering through the forest with your escort
>Show up to the battle late
>Your side still loses

Knowing that something is going to happen does not guarantee that you have a workaround that still makes sure everything goes as well as if that thing weren't going to happen.

>cast a divination spell
>now you are a spell slot down
>now the enemy mages have the advantage

Omniscient, omnipotent wizards are sewage; and one of the main thematic counters has always been defined abilities and resource management.

>nuh uhhh, it doesnt work!!!
I'm not replying to you after this post.

>see that there's going to be traffic on your fastest route to work
>wonder why you still show up late when you have to go the long way around

(you) too

>How can someone who has to follow the laws of nature and physics fight someone who gives the middle finger to all of that
They can't. Anything more insightful user?

>My players and regular people in the setting are encouraged to be tactically-intelligent
Your players can't be smarter than wizards who are the smartest people around, otherwise you're metagaming.

>Cast a divination ritual
>You don't spend spell slot
>At best you spend some gold...if only

>Casters can toss fireballs, shoot lightning, levitate boulders, raise the dead, heal themselves, and so on.
like a couple times a day if we're using Vancian magic

>Casters can toss fireballs, shoot lightning, levitate boulders, raise the dead, heal themselves, and so on.

Someone doesn't know how to basic optimize

Which also depends on how frequently or often they can do those things. Can they toss 100 fireballs in a minute like a machine gun? Can they raise all of the dead on the planet at once? Does levitating boulders take a 12 hour ritual of sitting on the boulder and only allow you to raise it vertically a few feet? Can they heal a maximum of one small scratch per day?

OP is obviously implying 3.5, but he should know full well what the answer is already, which is jack shit.

Depends what the limitations on the casters are. If a caster can chuck pebbles, heal small cuts, and throw candlefires, they aren't really all that dangerous. If casters take an hour to pop off a spell, they're useless in battle. If spells are risky or expensive to use, then they become backup tools instead of primary ones. In all these cases, the martial is going to be doing most of the work, and the mage might be a utility force.

We're all used to games like d&d where a caster can basically pop off any effect they care to, within a few seconds, with no real costs except their limited spell slots, which most GMs will never properly challenge them with. Magic is therefore cheap, risk-free, predictable, and powerful - the best of every world. Tweak any of these and you have a more balanced game.

>Your magic and an offering put you in contact with a god or a god’s servants. You ask a single question concerning a specific goal, event, or activity to occur within 7 days. The DM offers a truthful reply. The reply might be a short phrase, a cryptic rhyme, or an omen.

>The spell doesn’t take into account any possible circumstances that might change the outcome, such as the casting of additional spells or the loss or gain of a companion.

>If you cast the spell two or more times before finishing your next long rest, there is a cumulative 25 percent chance for each casting after the first that you get a random reading. The DM makes this roll in secret.

there's enough holes in this spell to slip an army through.

wizards don't even get the spell

>that feat that allowed to get TWO spells slots of a one level lower than the one you spent
Spend a 5th level spell slot? get two 4th level ones, and so on. Man, I did a char with that and was uberbroken, and it was just a Duskblade, imagine a Wizard

I always do see people suggest Divination as a way for Wizards to get the level of preparedness necessary to do all this, but I never see people actually list off the Divination spells that are helpful for doing so.

I guess there's scrying, but even that's limited to viewing a location you know about. That wouldn't help for a random ambush along a road unless you scryed every section of the road. And even that doesn't help if they show up later on a piece you already checked.

>Using 5e
I thought we were using worst editions, as in the ones where a wizard really is above of mundanes
Divination wizard gets other nice things than just spells, user, features are also nice

For example, PF divination wizard is almost impossible to beat in Ini or to surprise him, and that just from features, not spells

In a system/setting with more defined limits on magic, like Symbaroum for example, magic is a potent force but ultimately runs into barriers where too much use in a single instance results in corruption of the user, which is hard to mitigate and nearly impossible to permanently get rid of.

It's also pretty low on power, where specific offensive spells range from as potent as a bow and arrow to maybe three times as much, but the risk of gaining corruption increases as much, so a single powerful spell might push you to near your corruption threshold and anything beyond that is risking permanent corruption. Worst case scenarios on exceptionally bad rolls mean you might find yourself having cast two or three spells before you start risking permanent corruption.

Outside of that, there's many very utilitarian spells that add a good deal of variety to the team, and many defensive spells that can put the caster on par with Martials for defense, but do reduce their ability to act offensively.

So while a caster might have advantage when it comes to offense in the short term, but they also have the option to burn themselves to death or near death to get much more power out of it and afterwards become much more weakened as they have to keep their threshold down or end up dead anyway. Martials have no such worries and can fight very consistently in an extended combat, dealing more regular damage and having better defenses that don't require incurring corruption.

1. Praise (Abel) Christ
2. Punch a wizard through space and time with the power of your muscular body, artifacts and TRAINING

Worked to kill races of superhuman elves who are just sightly weak to pure fucking iron (since most soldiers are level 3+ and all wizards or psions) and a full no-real-downsides race of wizard elves among many irrelevant ones.

>Change route.
>Better check again to be sure
>Prepare another divination spell
>Still gonna get attacked.
>Maybe they're watching me.
>Prepare a spell to find out whose watching me, plus one to prevent it from happening again.
>Divine path to battle, nice and safe.
>The battle happened two days ago, we lost.

5e shits the martial bed.
5e is just 3.5 lite.

>The battle happened two days ago, we lost.
Why do martialfags always make these ridiculous assumptions? I guess there's nothing else they can use.

Nah, not really. 5e no longer has it where having spells is automatically better than not having spells across the board for all classes.

Plus outside of higher level gimmicks casters in general have less raw power.

There are other systems, but the average person still not banning non-casters classes from the (rare) 3.5/pf/other clones game they play has slight brain damage to say the least.

>Inb4 butthurt retards
Everything a martial can do, a caster can also do and have more options in 3.5 and it's little family of brain damaged pets.

>My Wizard can sit around in his tower and dawdle while there's a war going on

Is the idea that being cautious and careful to avoid ambushes would mean going slower than going recklessly down the fastest route?

As said "lite", still has the core issue of martials having very little out of combat utility if not spec'd for it particularly.

I mean, fixes the actual huge glaring issue of 3.5 no good DMing/story telling/hand waving can fix, which is to say 9293729 bagzillion assorted splats and UAs and other stuff, which is fun, because options, but sucks because you end up with 23728 million PDFs for a line of text.

In his defense.
>War
>Won in "2 days"
>Not months
>If you need wizards for it, you sure as fuck don't let them come alone and you scout your heavy artillery to the battlefield
user...

>Time sensitive objectives are ridiculous
>Pretending to be utterly undefeatable due to batman esque preparedness, ignoring spell limitations, is not.

Go play Calvinball or something, if actual problem solving is too much for you.

Shoot him. Burn the body.

>War
>Won in "2 days"

We were saying battle a battle can certainly be won in two days. And,of course you can have scouts and bodyguards to help protect the wizard, but do you really think Mr. 'My divination can see all!' will accept the help?

Even if he does, that's just accepting the fact that martials would still be important in warfare, since the ambush is still a threat that is most easily countered with some numerous mundane scouts.

Wind wall

Shitty oversimplification. 5e made several changes to curb caster potential. It's by no means a 3e clone.

Magical nemeses (and they were almost always villains) were usually depicted as being inferior to normal heroes, too, losing in direct confrontations where the hero would just no-sell their gay magic with the power of will (or god, depends on the era).

Big difference between a battle and a war, bud.

Sorry, you didn't know I was there. No time for your gay magic fart.

320 stealth 320 hide before dice.

/thread

not a wizard spell in 5e

>meanwhile, an army without wizards would have just walked into an ambush and fucking died
Wow, really sticking it to those dumb wizards.

>Sorry, you didn't know I was there. No time for your gay magic fart.
Hahahaha, divination wizard, can't be caught by surprise and I always win initiative.

>I never see people actually list off the Divination spells that are helpful for doing so.
This.
In theory, it could be a significant advantage.
But mostly, I've seen it presented as a magic crystal ball with infinite daily uses.

The fact that Martials have more skills and the fact that a lot of the spells that were used in place of skills aren't as good and dont completely circumvent obstacles helps a lot.

While a Wizard could use all his spell slots on charms, illusions, invisibility and knock and pretend to be a Rogue, he'll have to deal with all the downsides of those. Furthermore, while a Wizard can replace a Rogue, he can't replace a Rogue while simultaneously replacing a Fighter or doing all of the standard things you'd want a Wizard for.

There is still somewhat of a gap, but it's no longer so simple and clean. A Rogue offers far better utility and combat skill than a Sorcerer, at least in the sense that the Sorcerer can only really focus on one and won't be as good if splitting his focus.

...

PF is not allowed

Schrodinger's wizard exists though, not in the way most people think aka "I always have the best spell for every situation" but as "I have this spell, that is the second or third best spell for tons of situations, saving losts of spell slots by only preparing it a couple of times".

How so?
Cuts the most blatant exploits (I'm not going to get into simulacrum dipshit crap and >muh economy because that is one of the moments you either roll with the stupid or you slap a player and you all agree to make a pact on it, happens to all systems and non-uber competitive games).
Main issues, on little to no martials options out of combat and said incombat options got gutted (never forget mastery dice for all)

While some of those are because the more narrative approach to the game (see improvised action), you're still having little to no things to do in combat unless you're a specific caster/half caster or a specific fighter archetype.

If, after all these fucking years, you don't grasp them... Please get a trip.

Martials don't get particularly more skills than casters, so the point is moot there, if you told me "All martials get, by default X more skills than casters, any caster, no questions asked" I'd believe you.

That said proficiency is pretty much useless because how low it is, which further makes the point moot.

The utility point is retarded as all fuck, since all classes get the same skills except ones focused on skills, regardless of being casters, or not.

>It's another D&Drones flail about their shit system
Tell me again how great DM'ing was
>He prepared the undead spell set!
>Time to make them fight celestials hehehe
>Oh, I better exhaust his spells so the rest of the party can play this siiiiick combat system of full attack spam!
Jesus what a trainwreck of a system.

Spells tied to spell level only, spells tied to concentration, most save or suck effects removed, many individual spells tweaked to be lesser versions of themselves, as a start. Massive gameplay differences from those alone.

Martials have plenty to do. Fighters and monks have their own resources to spend through ki and maneuvers. The rogue is dancing around with bonus actions and lining up reactions. Everyone has their optimal range and positions to get to. And with the changes to spells, skill checks from these classes matter a lot more than before.

I'm not sure about your games, but in mine, people are pretty satisfied across the board with in and out of combat options to play with. The casters aren't automagically solving every problem, but they greatly expand the options of the party, which is really the point.

>Martials have plenty to do.

>Still doesn't grasp the issue

Jesus, get the trip buddy, like right now. And tell me this plenty of martials thing to do, and don't you fucking say DM may I may I, because then I might as well play fate if I'm going to DM May I may I after every fucking action I want to make so the DM has to stop and think if I fucking may or may not.

The issue is that non-casters are bound to DM may I may I without a framework or full attack spam in combat, outside of combat to DM May I May I after they bullshit an answer, while still being severely tied to reality or pseudo reality.

There is also the permanent class system problem of shit ability to progress your character outside his beaten path.

The difference in skills with 3.5 is that Wizards no longer get 6 skills thanks to high Int while fighters get 2 if they're lucky. Everyone aside from the skill monkeys are on a level playing field there, and with skills being generally more useful as utility and spells being generally weaker than they were, it helps Martuals stack up better.

Again, it's a matter of comparing a Rogue to a Sorcerer. The Rogue is a much better class overall, and can be so evrn without the subclass that grants spells. The fact that a full mundane class is better than a full caster gets across my point quite well.

Spells help. They aren't bad to have, but they are no longer the singular deciding factor like they were in 3.5

>Fighters and monks have their own resources to spend through ki and maneuvers
A kind of fighter does.

KYS.

Bring back superiority dice for all classes.