/4eg/ - D&D 4e General

The strongest overall hybrid classes are probably:

• The hybrid assassin (executioner), because its hybrid striker feature is compatible with basic attacks, which opens up builds such as an assassin (executioner)|warlock spamming Eldritch Strike.
• The hybrid cleric, because gaining Battle Cleric's Lore is a great deal for many characters. This is depreciated in value if the DM allows the Divine Healer multiclass feat to provide Battle Cleric's Lore, of course.
• The hybrid druid (sentinel), for offering in a single package an animal companion, a 1/encounter leader heal, and solid controller powers such as Magic Stones, Summon Giant Toad, and Charm Beast.
• The hybrid paladin (cavalier), for giving up essentially nothing. A character with this hybrid who sinks a feat into Hybrid Talent can have plate armor, a heavy shield, a functional defender feature, and a 1/encounter leader heal.
• The hybrid warlock, for offering plenty of versatility in optimized character-building, and for being more flexibly-buildable than a pure-classed warlock. This is how you get builds such as a catch-22 paladin|warlock spamming Eyebite or Hellish Rebuke, for example.

The archived remnants 4e CharOp board offer examples of more specific hybrid builds, including a bevy of "________switch" builds like the "killswitch" (hybrid artificer|warlord), and a hundred and one hybrid battleminds abusing Lightning Rush and Brutal Barrage in some fashion.

The barbarian|sorcerer seems like a good idea on paper. However, it is undermined by the fact that barbarian optimization revolves around either charge optimization or multiattack optimization, sorcerer optimization focuses mostly on Flame Spiral optimization, and it is rather difficult to squeeze *both* onto a single character.

For example, consider a generic sorcerer with Superior Implement Training, a Siberys Shard of the Mage, Dual Implement Spellcaster, a feat for a feat bonus to damage rolls with the relevant sorcerer powers, and an item for an item bonus to damage rolls with the relevant sorcerer powers. These will stack up to provide solid damage output for a sorcerer, particularly with the likes of Flame Spiral. However, a hybrid barbarian|sorcerer will be very hard-pressed to scrounge up even some of these without undermining the barbarian side.

Likewise, a barbarian has more to gain from being a hybrid paired with a hybrid cleric (for raw AC) or a hybrid warden (for AC, marking, and a multiattack like Wildblood Frenzy).

Nice. It seems that whichever game one turns to, paladins are always a very reliable choice. Tanky, healing and buffing. It's pretty crazy.

One thing that always annoyed me about 4E was the power swapping as you increased in level. It always felt shit to have to lose one option for another, or get a slightly better version of what you already had.

Yeah, it's an inelegant mechanic. At the same time, stopping getting new powers at a certain point would be dull, but you'd have to lose some or the number of options would get ridiculous.

Something I'm pondering with a few friends is a system that makes use of both new powers and upgrades for existing powers, letting you swap things out or just keep making what you already have better, ideally getting the best of both.

I've thought about granting one new power slot per tier, but yeah 4E can get pretty crazy with the amount of options people have. I know why they did it, but I agree with both of you that it feels kinda crappy. Especially when a bunch of the higher-level powers are, as noted, simply incremental upgrades to earlier ones.

I had just considered letting characters have encounter power charges that they can use. They never forget powers, and then can use encounter abilities in any combination.

The problem there is that it'll just lead to spamming the same power over and over, which is a much more dull and less interesting combat dynamic than having a significant opportunity cost associated with every power use.

Apologies. They can use them in any combination, but not the same one more than once. Basically, the same number of available powers, but they can bring old ones to bear if the situation calls for it.

If the same power is always the best then your encounter design is shit.

My memory is a bit rusty and I never played one, but isn't this how Wizards worked more or less?

Sadly, no. Wizards have a spellbook and the ability to learn multiple daily and utility powers, then change them out after a long rest. Psions, however, learn multiple at-wills and can choose to enhance them using encounter-based power points.

I'm a fan. I still run 4e, and don't see anything else becoming my go-to game to run any time soon.

I wonder if was wise to make this thread while the troll thread is still up...

There are feats that let Martials do something like this, IIRC.

So, who else here feels that the Swordmage was the first "gish" since the AD&D multiclassed Fighter/Mage to actually get the gish feel RIGHT?

I don't think it was the first one, some psionics/clerics/hexblade/PrCs came pretty close to it.

But yeah, it was the first one that also wasn't jank.

Anyone got any 4e lore they particularly love?

One thing that immediately comes to mind is the Goddess of Redemption, Nusemnee. I think it's because she's the first deity with that portfolio I can think of who doesn't have any extra baggage - she's just all about helping people to be better than they were.

As a big fan of Monster Adventurers, I really, really dig that idea. Just the mental image of a scarred, stoic-looking orc holding a small, rough-hewn holy symbol and methodically chanting the tenets of his goddess to himself:

* It is never too late to seek redemption.
* True heroism does not come from good deeds. It comes from doing good when it matters.
* Nobody is perfect. Those who seek to be perfect will fail. It is not a shame to fail, and it is not a waste to try.
* Open your heart to possibilities. Never give up hope.

To me, that's a powerful image, and a hell of a lot stronger than a bunch of busty drow dancing naked under the moon with a lot of suggestive imagery.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I really, really dug Codricuhn. I mean, he's the freaking 4e equivalent of Godzilla - a Demon Prince so big he can physically *climb* out of the Abyss, who carries his domain with him wherever he goes, and who is so scary that even other Demon Princes have tried to stop him. That's a pretty damn impressive image!

I loved points-of-light as the default setting, though 4e really shined independent of lore or fluff.

So, who else preferred the World Axis to the Great Wheel? I found the former far more inspiring and fleshed-out than the latter, personally.

I wish I could make it work. Maybe I'm looking at it wrong and I should be going for a TWF build with dagger in the off-hand as an implement instead of just trying to twink it for the usual stuff.

...

The World Axis is more usable. Whether this is a good thing is apparently up for debate.

I don't really get the opposing view, but there was a huge thread about it a few weeks ago, with the opposing view being that having large chunks of the setting with nothing interesting to adventure in that only exist for pattern completion were better than just focusing on things that were fun places to actually go and, you know, adventure, because if everywhere was an adventure location the world felt more arbitrary and less authentic.

Given how utterly arbitrary the great wheel has always seemed to me, it was a bit confusing.

This is quite late, but I was asked in a previous thread to post again after my next session. Last time I had asked what to do about my party withdrawing early from a sewer investigation to rest up, and the consensus was for the beholder antagonist to complete his planned ritual to mentally dominate the a local noble (in actuality, the town mayor).

With the mayor under its control, the beholder was able to send the city guard to arrest the party, who were resting at an inn. Thanks to a kobold that survived a fight with the party and reported to the beholder, it already knew who they were. The party, upon seeing a troop of guardsmen approaching the inn, made a quick exit and managed for a while managed to avoid capture. However, thanks to some horribly botched streetwise rolls putting them over the failure threshold of the skill challenge, they ended up getting caught at the edge of the high-class district where they were arguing about the best way to sneak back into the sewer.

The party decided not to resist arrest once surrounded. Surrendering their weapons, they allowed themselves to be escorted to the local keep and locked in the dungeon. The tiefling ardent asked the officer who brought them in if she could write a letter to the mayor arguing for their release, as no formal charges had been brought against them and they had previously struck a deal with the mayor to investigate a nearby swamp. The officer, himself uncertain as to why the mayor had ordered him to arrest the party, acquiesced and brought her some writing supplies.

1/X

Hey hey, is the revenant dragonborn guy returning?

Talking it over among themselves, the party realized that legally they had very little standing; while a citizen of the duchy couldn't be held for more than a month without charges, only one of the five people in the party was actually a citizen. Furthermore, even if they were to wait a month for the one citizen to be released, that would rob them of the opportunity to deal with several time-sensitive matters. Even in light of this realization, however, they found themselves somewhat at a loss, and after sending the letter they decided to simply pass the remainder of the day waiting in prison.

The next day they were greeted by the captain of the guard, a man with whom they had several dealings previously. The guard captain was just as puzzled as the party about their arrest; indeed, he was rather vexed that not only had his authority been directly bypassed by the mayor, but he hasn't even been informed of the order. Only the fact that the party's letter had passed across his desk on its way to the mayor had alerted him to the situation. The guard captain promised that he would consult with the mayor himself in an attempt to understand the situation and would advocate for their release, but the direct involvement of the mayor put the matter beyond his direct authority.

Thus assured, the party passed another day in prison. The tiefling started becoming a bit agitated, as she had a side-quest assigned to her by the rather shady organization she belongs to that was quickly running out of time. Fortunately for her the organization had already taken a note of her predicament and so they managed to slip her a prison key in one of her meals. Even so, she was still nervous to act, and the rest of the party found themselves similary uncertain. Finally they decided to wait until nightfall and then send the drow hunter alone to sneak out of the keep and see if he could find out why the mayor was acting so strangely.

Apparently not. I messaged him and tried to find out when he would be rejoining us, but he didn't answer. I have since then changed the session schedule to accommodate an old player who had to drop out due to work, so it is unlikely dragonborn guy will be returning anytime soon.

Sometime near midnight the drow hunter snuck out of his cell and, in the dark stairwell of the dungeon, managed to wedge himself against the ceiling above the doorway, bracing himself against the walls on either side. The party then proceeded to make a ruckus, having a loud and semi-sincere argument about the winner of a chess match and accompanying it with some good old fashioned slamming of cell bars. One of the two guards came down into the dungeon corridor to find out what the problem was, at which point they asked him to arbitrate a chess match between the minotaur cleric and the tiefling ardent. Intrigued (and rather enthralled by the tiefling) he agreed, sending the other guardsmen to go retrieve a chess set from elsewhere in the keep.

Having secured an opening, the drow hunter slipped out of the dungeon and into the keep proper. With some good stealth and perception rolls he managed to navigate the keep without attracting notice, and one acrobatics check and athletics check later he had cleared the wall and was back out in the town. Beelining for the mayor's mansion he stopped just outside the grounds of the estate, scanning for signs of activity. A candlelight flickered from a second story window, and that was all the guidance he needed to climb the side of the manor and observe. He found the mayor simply sitting in his study, strangely still, as if waiting for something. As it so happened, he was waiting; while clinging to the wall and keeping his head out of sight of the window, the drow hunter eventually heard someone else enter the room.

3/X

At first there was a brief conversation, the newcomer questioning the mayor on his mental state and general wellbeing, though oddly without a trace of sympathy or concern. Subsequently the hunter heard him begin a low chanting, upon which he decided to risk another look through the window. He was disturbed by what he saw: a man in noble finery holding a strange symbol over a slowly burning pile of fine, arcane powder on the mayor's desk while speaking unintelligible words of magic, all the while the mayor sitting stock still and staring unflinchingly forward. This nobleman, unknown to the party, is a coconspirator of the beholder, tasked with maintaining the ritual of mental domination upon the mayor. The spell requires daily renewal and an investiture of magical essence in the form of a powdery substance, colloquially known as 'pixie dust' and sold both as a magical reagent and as an addictive drug.

After the renewal ritual was complete the nobleman left the mayor's manor and returned to his own estate, the drow hunter tailing him all the while. Having discovered something of the mayor's situation and the residence of the plotting nobleman, the drow decided he he had learned enough. Creeping through the night he returned to the keep, sneaking in much the same way he had left. Miraculously the rest of the party had managed to keep the guardsmen busy with chess the whole time, whiling away the hours through endless arguments, cheating, and demands to review the moves of previous matches. Thanks to their distraction the drow hunter was easily able to sneak back into the dungeon, once more wedging himself against the ceiling, and once the guardsmen gave up on chess in disgust to return to their posts the drow came down from the shadows and returned to his cell.

4/5

>Something I'm pondering with a few friends is a system that makes use of both new powers and upgrades for existing powers, letting you swap things out or just keep making what you already have better, ideally getting the best of both.
13th Age does this.

That's where we ended it. I was surprised at how little initiative the party showed once imprisoned; even when I nudged them towards escape with the key, and even though they more than likely could have escaped through force or wit, they chose to remain and wait it out. I'm not sure if it's simply a spirit of caution or if I just have some very lawfully-minded players. In the end it still worked out, and I think they're definitely going to enact an escape plan next time now that they know that the mayor is being magically influenced. This summary ended up being way longer than I expected; I could probably omit more detail than I did, but then it begins to lose its feel.

Pic related is the not-likely-to-return dragonborn warlock. We hardly knew thee!

5/5

2hufag is here, this is a truly a thread full of /4eg/gotry.

I've always had a soft spot for MwaO's Half-Elf Battlemind|Fighter/Daring Blade and Half-Elf Bard|Ardent/War Chanter. They take some quite unique combos and makes them work really elegantly.

I genuinely find Ioun to be one of the most fun and interesting goddesses we've had in a while. She kinda reminds me of Athena but far, far more badass.

That's a pretty fitting picture. Did he commish that?

I like the initiative you showed with the key. It'd be kinda funny if the thieves guild (or whoever that shady patron is) would tease the character about it. Like, what kind of shady criminal adventurer person can't even break out from prison?

I really wish I knew more about Ioun so I could better flesh out her article on 1d4chan. Ah well, I'm only one user, I'm doing the best I can.

>I genuinely find Ioun to be one of the most fun and interesting goddesses we've had in a while. She kinda reminds me of Athena but far, far more badass.

I'm playing an Avenger of Ioun in a game currently. She's a ball to play, she had a fun talk with the (Very stupid but good hearted) fighter of the group about why she was reading a holy book of Bane. The idea that knowledge itself cannot be evil and that understanding someone doesn't mean agreeing with them.

Forgot to mention, I decided the revenant dragonborn warlock has been put into a magically-induced coma by the beholder draining him of his power to fuel the initial ritual. The process would have killed a non-reveannt, but his connection with the Raven Queen keeps him 'alive'. This leaves the option for him to someday return but gets him out of the picture for now.

Nope, he didn't commission it, though it looks like someone else may have. I don't know where he found the picture.

As for the key, it blew my mind a bit that they didn't immediately try to break out with it. I forgot to mention it, but I ended up having her organization sneak in a message for her the next day basically saying "we got you this key, you better freaking use it."

As for the organization, it's not so much a thieves' guild as an assassination/spy network. They often operate out of brothels and they gain influence by getting noblemen in their pocket via blackmail or other means. The tiefling's assignment actually involves blackmailing the mayor; her organization has poisoned the mayor's daughter, and she was tasked with 'offering' an antidote if he agrees to appoint a member of the org to the city council. This is a secret from the rest of the party.

Your game sounds pretty great user. The lack of initiative they have shown looks a bit alarming, but probably nothing to worry about.

Thanks, it gladdens me to hear that. In the past I suffered from some overwhelming perfectionism and anxiety that made it hard for me to keep a game running. This campaign is my longest lasting one so far at 13 or 14 sessions. The party can be somewhat reticent at times, but so far they haven't been so indecisive as to make it a problem. They also assure me they are enjoying the game, and when they do have criticism I try to learn from it. All in all it's been a blast.

No, we're playing 4e.

Yeah, I love 4e because of that. It has it's own "setting" going on, but it's so loose that you can run any flavor you want. For me it's one of it's strongest points.

Yeah, that's the martials-are-casters edition. What the fuck do you think dailies are?

Narrative abstractions that make perfect sense in context?

>Narrative abstractions
lol no
>that make perfect sense in context?
In the context of what? A game system designed around balance at the expense of everything else? Daily powers are fucking awful, they were cancer in the limited amount they were present in 3.5, and the ones still in 5e (action surge and second wind) are also cancer. At least second wind makes sense because it exhausts you. But if a 4e maneuver exhausts you, you should get to use it more if you have a higher constitution. That just plain makes sense. But you can't, because the game is designed around being balanced instead of making sense. Balance is important but it can be achieved without making every class have the exact same mechanics and thus be boring and bland as fuck.

There is basically no different between a wizard and a fighter in 4e besides the ability scores they use to attack.

Nope. It makes perfect sense in context.

That you refuse to meet the system on even terms and try to understand how it works isn't the systems fault, it's you being painfully mentally inflexible and making assumptions based on things which are no longer true.

Martial daily powers are narrative abstractions. They do not represent a thing that exists in universe, but are instead a narrative tool given to the player, letting them choose a moment where their character gains the opportunity to do something fucking awesome. It only doesn't 'make sense' if you attempt to approach everything from a pure simulation perspective, which 4e explicitly does not.

>Balance is important but it can be achieved without making every class have the exact same mechanics and thus be boring and bland as fuck.

Why do people who know thing about the system always repeat these stupid lies?

>There is basically no different between a wizard and a fighter in 4e besides the ability scores they use to attack.

Mind linking which source book the fighter's fireball daily is in?

funin.space/compendium/power/Nimble-Bladestorm.html

its even the same level spell :^)

...Are you just trying to prove you don't understand the system? Because that's completely different to the fireball power.

im not the same guy but yes i have no fucking idea how 4e works

Basically, the power he posted is whirlwind attack, a melee AoE that hits everyone adjacent to the user, a pretty classic thing even in 3.PF.

The fireball, meanwhile, is a larger AoE at a greater range that targets a secondary defence.

So, I guess they're both area attacks, but both effects also existed in almost identical forms in earlier editions of D&D, so it's hard to see why it's being cited as a problem with 4e.

i'm pretty sure i remember Close burst 1 being 9 squares centered on the player

how big is Area burst 3? is it 9 squares that contain the target square?

It's a square counting three in every direction from the center point, so it'd be a 7x7 square.

However, it's also missing context on how powers interact with features. The Wizard one is better area damage, but the Fighter power is more accurate and will allow them to Mark everyone they attack with it, locking down a whole group of enemies and potentially opening them up to mark punishment or other debilitating effects if they don't focus on the Fighter.

Weapon vs AC is better than Implement vs Reflex?

i thought the proficiency bonus is about the same as difference between AC and Ref?

You're generally correct but Fighter is something of an exception, getting a flat attack bonus. That power also has an extra +stat to attack if you're using the right weapon, making it extremely accurate even compared to NAD targeting attacks.

> it's you being painfully mentally inflexible and making assumptions based on things which are no longer true.

Like assuming the mechanics have any relationship to the world, and that metagaming is bad? If so, I can live with that, because I don't like games with metagaming bullshit and judging by sales figures neither does most of the rest of the D&D community. Go play FATE if you want that kind of shit.

>That you refuse to meet the system on even terms
It provides nothing that makes it worth doing so. It could have easily been fairly balanced without martials having shitty once per day abilities that function in a completely nonsensical way.

Please read this article before you attempt to discuss the matter further: thealexandrian.net/wordpress/17231/roleplaying-games/dissociated-mechanics-a-brief-primer

It's a different ability, but it functions mechanically the same. Nimble Bladestorm is basically a spell, it's basically fireburst, or might as well be. except with slashing damage instead. 4e fighters are basically magic spellcasters of super power, that's the only explanation for why they can only do that shit once per day. Explain how my fighter knows that he can only do his super-cool disarm maneuver once per day.

>m-m-muh situational usage
Except he chooses when it happens, and how it happens. It doesn't require a specific situational set-up (like some of the 3.5 tactical feats did). Situation doesn't matter, thus this "argument" is invalid.

>m-m-muh he's tired
Then why doesn't he get extra uses of it for a high Constitution? It would make sense a high-Con character would get more uses of something based on vigor and energy. Except they don't because it isn't based on that.

>m-m-muh action movie
There are plenty of instances of action movie characters doing the same kind of maneuver twice in the same scene, let alone the same movie. This logic doesn't work either.

The real answer is, 4e is designed around being a tactical computer wargame with "cooldowns" on its epik maneuvers like fucking DOTA 2. It's a video game and nothing else, and 4e fags will just go "lol calling it a video game means you know nothing about the system" when in reality I just gave an irrefutable comparison to it being like fucking DOTA 2. The minion mechanics are another fine example.

I've read that article. It's shit and it makes the same logical leaps you are.

Your only valid point is that you don't enjoy meta-mechanics. And you know what? That's fine. That is an expression of personal preference, and it is entirely legitimate. Nobody is saying you have to play or like 4e.

But I will call you out as an asshole and an idiot if you keep trying to apply your personal preferences as objective standards and simply prove you aren't able to see beyond your own biases.

Except you're factually wrong. Like, we've even gone over it in the thread. They function in mechanically distinct ways, with their own nuances and benefits, despite both being area attacks.

You're either lying or being wilfully ignorant.

>m-m-muh action movie
>There are plenty of instances of action movie characters doing the same kind of maneuver twice in the same scene, let alone the same movie. This logic doesn't work either.

Wow, you are doing an amazing job of exhibiting your own ignorance.

>If I keep lying and repeating memes people will have to believe me!

>Daily powers are fucking awful, they were cancer in the limited amount they were present in 3.5, and the ones still in 5e (action surge and second wind) are also cancer.
3.pf's spellcasting system was cancer, yes. It was also the only interesting thing about the game, so I'm not sure which edition you think you're defending here.

>But if a 4e maneuver exhausts you, you should get to use it more if you have a higher constitution. That just plain makes sense. But you can't, because the game is designed around being balanced instead of making sense.
Fuck off.

This kind of autistic cherry-picking BUT IT'S LOGICAL shit really rustles my jimmies, because it's not JUST autistic bitching about certain trivial things but not others. No, it also invariably leads to things making less sense on top of that, because it completely eschews organic flow in the world in favor of this particular neurotic thing you're obsessed with.

Taking your example, sure, we could let you, what, use exhaust-keyword encounter powers Con mod times per encounter rather than once? Except then they have to be rebalanced to account for the fact that any frontliner is likely to have 14-16 in Con, and so be able to use them 2-3 times an encounter, which... well, that makes them pretty close to at-wills, only they exhaust you, so... yeah, you get an unholy abomination of meaningful and not-meaningful, saddled with "this is an important decision, consider when and if to use it" mechanics while stuffed in a "you have plenty to spare" use slot.

And the payoff for this jank? Well for one thing, the fighter gets to exhaust himself doing something strenuous three times a fight rather than once. You'd think exhausting yourself would prevent activity so strenuous it exhausts you, but NOT IF YOU HAVE HIGH CON! That just makes sense. Also, we got to apply a janky, hyper-specific relation between exhaustion (self-inflicted only, obviously) and Con. Not anything else, just those two exactly.

WORTH.

>any frontliner is likely to have 14-16 in Con
>in 4e

Hahahaha, no.

>I'm too much of a faggot to argue it myself so here have a distracting wall of text
You're a faggot.

>if I can't be bothered to explain it in-game, it has no attachment to the game WHATSOEVER and is a disassociated mechanic
>magic and magitech is immune to this
>in fact, you can fix disassociation by making it magic or basically magic
Not surprisingly, the author of that article is also a faggot.

More specifically, he (and by association you) are autistic faggots who repeatedly claim that if something doesn't fit your definition of realism/associativity/"making sense" (that is, if it rustles your jimmies and you're more interested in being mad at it than imagining a way for it to make sense), then it has no connection to the game at all, ever, in any way. This is, of course, patently stupid; at an absolute bare minimum, there's no fucking way association is all or nothing.

Trouble is, accepting that (dis)association is a gradient would open up the possibility that you and your buttbuddy's definitions are arbitrary, subjective, and maybe even open to alteration, which interferes with the narrative that these things are bad and illogical and wrong and don't make sense and dumb and have nothing to do with the game they're in.

So instead, like all autistic faggots before, you both draw a line in the sand, rant a lot about "true gaming" and its vile adversaries ("roleplaying versus playing a role," "unlike video games such as DOTA 2"), and generally make gigantic clowns of yourselves in the name of refusing to have fun.

I redact my previous statement about the risks of making the thread while a 4e troll thread is going on. There should always be a containment thread or the trolls spill over.

>completely different

I haven't played 4E in about a billion years, but yeah, those powers are different. The top one has the Invigorating keyword which did something, I don't remember. The second has Rattling, don't remember its deal but at least this power differs from the top by being Dexterity based whether you are using a melee or ranged weapon, and the bottom power targets a completely different defense which can be useful against certain enemies and not others, but also has a weapon type requirement. For some reason, you're presenting them as if they're the same though.

This image has already been posted in this thread ad it continues to do nothing but throw confusion on the issue. Either you're posting it ironically because you actually understand 4e and keywords, or you're posting it ignorantly because you've jumped on the 'everything in 4e is identical to each other' bandwagon.

This image gets posted all the time for the above stated reasons. It needs to die.

>the only difference is a keyword
>t-they're completely different g-guys ;_;

And weapon types, but yeah. They're basic attacks. More differences than the "I hit it with my sword" attacks in other editions. But you used the stutter talk meme so your argument is null.

I don't think you realize how big of a fucking deal attacking different defense stats is. Typical paizophile, he only looks at the damage value. I bet you're a fatty too

Keyword, the weapons used, the stats used, and a defense targeted.

And these are your "normal" attacks. And they don't take into consideration that the fighter will mark with his, and the rogue will backstab with his.

>the only difference is that they do different things
>tripping and disarming in 3.pf are basically identical
>all cc spells are the same thing
>in fact all spells are basically the same
>all dice are basically the same
>all roleplaying games are basically identical

>why yes good sir, those "powers" are completely different for, you see, they utilize idiosyncratic keywords! that makes them COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from one another

those keywords have associated mechanics tho

>the only difference is that they do different things
They do exactly the same fucking thing. 4rries are just too dumb to realise it because of slight differences in keywords.

funin.space/compendium/glossary/Invigorating.html
funin.space/compendium/glossary/Rattling.html

Those keywords make or break a party setup.

And nice pic, I knew you were a fatty.

>Invigorating
Gain temp HP, useful if you're on the front line
>Rattling
Inflicts -2 to enemy attacks, good at stopping things like opportunity attacks and allowing rogues to move around more

>reflex, tends to be lower than AC as it's not affected by what armour the enemy is wearing. Good against soldier types.

>i like games where keywords can make or break a party setup
>w-what? n-no I'm not autistitc or anything!

>invigorating
>rattling
ugh, look at these two status effects. they're both basically the same, how can you even tell the difference between the two in combat? I honestly don't think my delicate immersion will ever recover

>EXACTLY THE SAME
>keywords
>THEIR CLEAR DIFFERENCES MAKE YOU AUTISTIC
user? You okay over there?

well the first gives you ~10% hp restoration each time the power is used while the second reduces an enemy's accuracy by 10% (which we all know is equivalent to 10% damage reduction in the long run)

mathematically, the difference is 1% less hp lost with the former compared to the latter but since that is smaller than the lowest possible difference in a d20 roll they are mechanically identical keywords

Nah, the debuff one applies to allies as well as to yourself, but only to the target (but all attacks of the target) while the THP only applies to yourself but against everyone that would damage you.

>reduces an enemy's accuracy by 10% (which we all know is equivalent to 10% damage reduction in the long run)
On a d20? No. The system suffers hard from increasing returns as you get further from an opponent's numbers.

Enemy has 50% chance to hit you for 10 damage. Average damage: 5. Reduce hit by 10%, 40% to hit for 10, average damage 4. 20% decrease in damage output.
Enemy has 60% chance to hit, 6 dmg avg. Reduce by 10%, 5 avg, ~17% reduction.
Enemy has 40% chance to hit, 4 dmg avg. Reduce by 10%, 3 dmg avg, 25% reduction.

In addition to being considerably larger than you were assuming, the exact benefits vary wildly based on the situation, namely what the enemy is trying to hit.

Had to go look up what the keywords meant because it's been years since I've played 4e, so are these translations correct?

Crushing Strike: Basic melee attack that gives temp HP 1/rd if you have the Endurance skill.

Disheartening Strike: Basic melee/ranged attack with specific weapon restrictions. If you have trained in Intimidate and the enemy isn't immune to fear, you give -2 to the enemy's to-hit.

Piercing Strike: Basic melee attack with weapon type restrictions that targets Reflex save.

Is that all about right? If so, why are these the same? The different uses for each are obvious.

if you expand the set of possible (unmodified hit chance->average damage) vs (modified hit chance->average damage) it does come out to 10% damage reduction

Crushing Surge also has an automatic rider effect that marks the target thanks to Fighter class feature

Disheartening Strike and Piercing Strike are both better than Basic melee attack by using Rogue's (highly likely) better Dexterity modifier. They can also deal more damage, at the player's discretion, by applying sneak attack damage from Rogue's class feature.

Thanks, I would have missed those anyway because I don't have access to a PHB.

So, all that being the case, Crushing Surge makes the tank more effective by marking the target and granting bonus HP for the counterattack, while Disheartening and Piercing Strike inflict more damage due to backstab. Piercing is more likely to be effective at targeting a character weak on defense, and Disheartening can be used to protect the tank at range or melee by adding a to-hit penalty to the target. Anything else I'm missing?

I really enjoy the fact that butthurt anons were boasting that this was a dead thread, but now are bumping it to the next dimension.
Cry some more, little assblasted.

i really enjoy the fact that people are responding "seriously" to my "serious" reply to shitposts

The difference between an ice lance and a fire bolt is only one keyword (cold or fire).

But what 4e did to you? Raped your mom? Your group moved on to it from other edition? You feel that the years/dollars you spent on other edition means nothing anymore?

Because even an autist or a troll would get tired after so many years, but you continue. It is personal to you in some matter.

I pity you and hope you recover. God's grace upon you, user.

Have you not seen the harping on PF/3.5 or quests assholes on Veeky Forums havedone for over 8 years?

look i hate 3.5 and pathfinder as much as the next guy, but please do not slander them by associating them in any way with quest threads. there's no need to drag the level of discourse here down to that level