The one who started it all

The old ones. It's all their fault.

Alpharius. But only he knows why.

>guy splices his genes and hellmagic into dogs
>dogs get lost in hellmagic vortex by vengeful gods
>guy puts up lost dog signs, makes shittier inbred pugs from first batch's and goes looking for them
>finds originals in feral states, puts in charge of inbred pugs
>occasionally beats dogs for contradictory and confusing reasons
>gets bit in the testicles
checks out

Malcador said it him. He said Lorgar, Horus, and the others cannot be blamed. That he and the Emperor made mistakes with them and could have been better.

However, he adds, he utterly and totally blames Magnus for all that has happened because of all the primarchs HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.

>user btfo of his own argument
Quite funny tbqh

it would've been more savage if he posted on /an/ They would've tore into him.

It is never the Emperor's fault you filthy heretics.

Even if you brought up a child under your care, you give him love, attention and the best you can afford, you can't do shit when he decides to run away and join a street gang because of his influence outside your purview, you cockhead heretics.

The biggest criticism for the Emperor was that they weren't raised under his care, and didn't give love.

You are fucking stupid

>biggest criticism

By fucking who?

The denial is real.
>It cant be his fault it just cant be!
lol

...

>He thinks saying not an argument is an argument
Lol.

Whoever wrote the lore.

Lorgar only revealed to mankind the Primordial Truth. :^)

No need to get testy, dear, your first analogy was just really bad.

Emps is not a people person for reasons that have already been discussed but which mostly have to do with his millennia-long lifespan. So, he could not relate to his sons, let alone regular people, which led to mistakes like

>I know let's get rid of religion so we can starve chaos out

Also, destroying Monarchia, then publicly humiliating Lorgar while leaving him in charge of his gigantic military force is epic stupidity. Really, WTF did Emps think was going to happen?

>Also, destroying Monarchia, then publicly humiliating Lorgar while leaving him in charge of his gigantic military force is epic stupidity. Really, WTF did Emps think was going to happen?
user, he'd tried the easy way. He tried being patient.

He told Lorgar not to worship him.

Lorgar did it anyway.

He told Lorgar that he wasn't a god.

Lorgar said he was a god anyway.

He told Lorgar that he wanted him to focus on being a Primarch and reconquering the galaxy, not building giant churches.

Lorgar not only dragged his feet on conquering the galaxy and built giant churches, he wrote the Lectio Divinatus and let it spread through the Crusade.

Guilliman told Lorgar to knock it off. Magnus, probably Lorgar's best friend among the Primarchs, told Lorgar he was being an idiot and to stop it. Horus told him it was a bad idea.

Lorgar proceeded to ignore them and build Monarchia because CLEARLY going on his biggest religious spree yet would convince the Emperor otherwise.

So the Emperor personally goes to Monarchia with Malcador, and asks him, AGAIN, to lay off it and do his fucking job.

Lorgar proceeded to not shut up about the glorious houses of worship he's made for the Emperor, with an adoring populace seeking only to worship him as a god.

The soft touch wasn't working. So the Emperor had Guilliman raze Monarchia, and Guilliman even went out of his way to ensure it was the buildings, not the citizens. Emps could have dropped fucking Angron or Russ on that shit, he was STILL trying to make Lorgar get the point.

And does Lorgar figure it out? No, he goes off and finds a bunch of Warp-gods to take him up his ass like the sockpuppet bitch boy he always wanted to be.

Should the Emperor have just eliminated Lorgar and the Word Bearers right then and there? Probably, it'd save a lot of trouble in the long run. If the Emperor is guilty of anything there though, it's that he gave Lorgar too fucking many second chances.

>IMMA DO A THING
>Lorgar, don't do this thing
>IMMA DOING THE THING
>Lorgar, stop doing the thing
>I DID THE THING
>oh for fuck's sake

Uh.... yeah. If your dog actually bites you harder than a play-bite then you almost certainly mistreated said dog and raised it poorly.... so yeah, your example actually perfectly illustrates how it's all the Emperor's fault.

>Should the Emperor have just eliminated Lorgar and the Word Bearers right then and there?
Not probably definitely.

im not sure if thats more Lorgar being a fucking retard or the fluff writers being shit.

The amount of batshit stupid/insane things some of the primarchs get up to is amazing considering they're meant to be super human beings that are a few steps ahead of humanities evolution and only a few steps short of the Big E who is written like he is a God

>im not sure if thats more Lorgar being a fucking retard or the fluff writers being shit.
Simple answer: Yes

That's been the fluff since the oldest days, but the HH stuff has been particularly egregious in making all of the major players dumber and dumber and dumber and dumber

>im not sure if thats more Lorgar being a fucking retard or the fluff writers being shit.

It can be both, and most of the time with 40k, it is.

>the Emperor's flaw was that he was too forgiving
That's hilariously ironic.

In old, pre ADad fuck you I hate you DadB fluff, it was shockingly true too - Lorgar, Magnus, even Horus himself all got handled too kindly by the Emperor

it looks like they have written themselves into a corner on their quest to be GRIMDARK.

The first non retarded thing ive seen fluff/cannon wise is rowboat girlyman making mars actually research necron pylon tech in order to close the rift. And you can be sure that thats going to cause a schism on mars because heaven forbid they actually start relearning things

Technically speaking it'd be Kor Phaeron for influencing Erebus and Lorgar, spiraling things out of control from there.

Why would anyone blame Magnus? He delivered a warning about Horus falling something that he had nothing to do with.

and like clockwork "Magnus dindu nuffin!" arrives

What do you mean? I didnt say he dindu nuffin so fuck off /pol/.
Blaming him for the HH however seems retarded.

>I've had the son who is an echo of myself. Easily one of the three worst people to do this destroy every city on the planet
>Just the cities. I also allowed ONE distress message to be sent for you
>Am I not a merciful ruler of all mankind for allowing my subjects to wander, waste and die in the fused glass ruins of their murdered world?

Fuck even Russ would have looked lorgar dead on and admitted this sat ill with him as it should with lorgar for allowing his beliefs to kill loyal humans. Rowboat was the worst decision

Actually, in the first heretic, Lorgar states that the emperor never once rebuked his worship of him before monarchia.

And the emperor was so brutal about how he went about it. He never debated with him on the philosophy of the word "god" or even really gave Lorgar much of a chance to explain. He even used his psychic power to stop Lorgar from talking when Lorgar was making good points.

If the emperor knew how to be charasmatic at all, the entire horus heresy would not have happened. I don't actually mind it tho, because the theory going is that the primarch are all facets of the emperor. In a way, he used dark powers as well as alchemy and science to remove his "flaws" so that he would be the perfect ruler, but he ended up giving his primarchs each a different aspect of his former personality.

Because of this, it makes sense why his primarchs could be so charasmatic (such as Horus for example) while the emperor is a socially retarded bully. He can't emote anymore beyond using force to get what he wants.

Like, read The Last Church, and then go read The First Heretic. The emperor is like a completely different person in how he approaches these two situations.

They removed the civilians first. Only those that refused to be moved and wanted to die stayed.

>Fuck even Russ would have looked lorgar dead on and admitted this sat ill with him
Lol yeah right.

/Thread

>Gets btfo in debate by priest
>Says fuck you and burns church down anyway

Idk looks the same to me

Well... that's just mean.

..and a little dumb when you think about it. What, the emperor is less knowledgable than magnus? Less wise than Magnus? Less responsible for the imperium's fate? For serious? Talk about insulting your emperor :P

>"You're a god!"
>"No I'm not."
>"I don't believe you!"

>"He is so... changeable. He is so prone to extremes. Eager to please, so quick to take offense. He's so keen to be your best friend, and then, at the slightest hint of an insult, he's angry with you. Furious. Offended. Like a child."

Sounds like something Phil kelly would write.

Literally only Horus felt close to the emperor and even he felt distrusted by the emperor after ullanor. You could argue Magnus was close to the emperor at first as well because he was in constant psychic communication with the emperor, but most of the primarchs were raised by foster fathers and even when they met up with the emperor, they didn't go out crusading with him. They kinda did their own thing after they were given a legion.

>le heresy meme roleplay
This won't give you an instawin argument, nigger.

The Emperor puts up with a LOT of shit from Malcador.

No, the Emperor did crusade with all the Primarchs at one time or another while he was leading it. It's remarked that because he favoured Dorn and the Imperial Fists with his presence so much, that the other Primarchs were all starting to get jealous, and was one of the reasons why the Emperor decided to name Horus as Warmaster instead.

But really, the Primarchs feeling like they weren't trusted because the Emperor wasn't with the Crusade any more? That's pants on head retarded. The Emperor has the rest of the Imperium to run, he can't be continuously fighting on all those different battlefields. Having the Primarchs, Lords of War, to lead so he can focus on other things is part of the entire point. You'd expect a superhuman mind and brain to be capable of figuring that out.

>t. Lorgar

Actually, it's theorized that erebus was being controlled by the deceiver in order to start the heresy and weaken the most powerful faction at the time. So, it may actually go back further and be the necron's fault :P

Mainly considering the heresy was underway when he tried to warn the emperor.

he never went anywhere with the Alpha legion

but he may have used them for false flag ops so who the fuck really knows

Lets be honest here, what sane Emperor would let Kurze and his murdermarines run around?

What was the point when a normal marine legion would have accomplished just as much if not more and be mentally stable?

Huh? When do you think Magnus warned the Emperor user? I might just be misunderstanding you.

He never psychically quelled the priest, and had a long drawn out debate about the nature of religion, its effects on the growth of humanity and how religion can be easily explained away by common sense and science. He didn't have the priest's brother bombard his home planet in order to "punish" him for his religious efforts.

Big E was too forgiving.
He should have old Yeller'd Kurze and Angron when he had the chance, It doesn't take a genius to see they were only trouble from the get go.

The same sort of sanity that had Guilliman as Imperial Regent let the Assassin Temples remain fully open for business, probably. Rowboat thinks about it for a while in Dark Imperium, that he understands why the Emperor did what he did, and has to come to deal with the fact that now he's making the same choices - including lying to people to get them to do what he wants, or not bothering with "diplomacy" and just running roughshod over whoever he has to.

All of this. Either lorgar is lieing or deluded. I still think Russ would have been better then rowboat. He spoke sort-of well to Angron that one time. It would have been blunt and painful to have the man wolf explain that you fucked up and doomed a world. But anything is better then bootyman standing there silent.

It'd difficult not to imagine him judging. The only worse person might of been Ferrus

not him but didn't he warn him after the drop site massacre but before his betrayal was known to everyone

im going by just memory so my timeline might be wrong but im 100% certain the heresy was already underway when magnus tried to warn the emps and fucked up the webway. It just wasn't at the galaxy spanning civil war stage yet.

To be fair, in 40K there's the active problem of Chaos and the Warp taking every chance to get in via religion. He chats about it with one of the Custodes in Master of Mankind.

Every bad in 40k can. E blamed on the necrons.

Can you provide some sort of source to every primarch crusading with the emperor? I would love to read about angron crusading with the emperor before the heresy but after deshea (no really that would be fucking hardcore).

>Either lorgar is lieing or deluded.
Guilliman seems to think he's often the latter. He doesn't blame him for it.

You are incorrect. The wolves attacking Prospero happens at least a year before Istvaan. So the warning arrived enough before that that the Talons of the Emperor could muster and rendezvous with Russ.
Magnus watched Horus fall in the warp so right at the beginning and this is why Horus tried to convinced russ to kill Magnus.

Not on me, but there's this noting how the IF were his favourites and that he called on them "more than any other legion" - which means that he most probably fought with all of them at least once.

It was right after the council of nikea and after horus was corrupted. Read Thousand sons and it explains how magnus saw a vision of horus being corrupted and he tried to reach him psychically but was too late. Immediately after, magnus spent 9 days i believe trying to reach the emperor on terra to warn him of horus' treachery.

Pretty sure thats because Dorn's useless and needed supervision tho. When ever he acted on his own it was a bad day for the Imperium.

>Feel bad for Monarchia
>Make Calth to be this big birthday bash for Lorgar
>Hah surprise mother fucker!
>Lorgar realizing in his heart that Guillamane never wanted to do it and doubting his decisions

Only good thing to come out of this

See i'm willing to believe its possible. Emps might very well have taken several softer steps and lorgar rationalises them away. On the other hand though. I think its possible Big E said it all of once in passing then let his galaxy spanning empire and feats of construction, logistics and warfare unimagined by humans before speak for itself.

To a man raised in the cradle of belief it's all-too easy to see how the imperium could be considered the work of divinity

Yeah so I did misunderstand you. Cool. Thought you meant when the Heresy was on proper after Horus had admitted his betrayal.

Honestly, I could make you a list of primarchs that would more than likely have been better and might have tried to be somewhat compassionate towards lorgar. You know, good cop, bad cop.
-Vulkan
-Horus
-Fulgrim
-Sanguinius
-Magnus (maybe, he would at least know him better)

Hated, user. Rowboat never Hated lorgar before that final fight. I doubt he ever gave a heartbeart's thought to Monarchia before, during or at any point after its murder

Go back to playing with your toy soldiers, Perty.

The Emperor wasn't pleased with all the religious celebration going on when he found Lorgar, so I can certainly see him telling Lorgar "hey, I'm not a god, don't worship me, this thing here is the Imperial Truth, I want you to make sure you preach it and encourage it instead of this religious nonsense" (he almost had to have done that at some point, since entrenching the Imperial Truth was part of what the Crusade involved beyond just conquest).

And then Lorgar interprets that as "I'm just trying to be modest and humble about my godhood wink wink nudge nudge" ("only a true god would deny his divinity"). Or Kor Phaeron/Erebus talking Lorgar around to that viewpoint.

For somebody supposedly so charismatic and persuasive, Lorgar was really easy to mislead, convince, or otherwise delude.

I imagine Sangy would have reached out to inform and brace lorgar before arriving. Horus would have explained himself and the logic leading to this better then most.

I'm not so sure about Fulgrim. Perfection and all that, would be willingly reach out to the failure primarch?. You're right about Vulkan though. Nigga would have been the perfect man to lay it out

>>Magnus (maybe, he would at least know him better)
>Awww dont feel bad bro
>Can I get you anything?
>Here have a daemon I've already got plenty
>Wait you dont know what daemons are?
>Boy are you going to love this
I'd watch it.

1 is more than 0, user. Get your logic straight

>>Go back to playing with your toy soldiers, Perty.
>Implying I'm a bitterboi
>Implying I'm wrong
Dorns greatest achievement is ALLAH AKBARing half his legion into a ditch.

If you believe the first heretic that is lorgar's flaw. He trusts too easily and too deeply. Too willing to believe in the better nature of others.

Remember this is the man who was shocked when a custodies murdered some of his men when he refused to be taken. Lorgar was.. Naive? A combination of who he was, his upbringing and being stuck with a pair of serpents for father figures. Remove kor and Erebus and the odds are that the word bearers would have ether become M'lady tier atheists or gone the yifftard way and toned it down to the point where you can just call it legion culture or some shit

Vulkan would have been perfect, although the sound and smell of the roasting flesh of Monarchia's citizens might have been a bit unsettling.

Guilliman did try to be kind about it and specifically target the buildings, but any kindness or point he was trying to make would certainly have been swallowed up in the rage and loathing Lorgar had for his brother.

pretty much this. Dorn was literally autistic who couldn't understand the most basic of social situations. He may not have been pants on head/ cant look anyone in the eye autistic but he was definitely on the spectrum, no wonder the emperor called on him so often. He couldn't be trusted to do anything alone. And the fluff basically confirms this since he came back to Terra with him when Horus was made warmaster

Lion is the autistic one.

Dorn was just blunt.

Yo what up Lorgar mah home boy, look this how is goin down. You done fucked up and piss off BIG E right there (peace b upon his name) and now alls yo peoples gonna feel the HEAT BABY. AND ITS ALL. YO. FAULT HAHAHAHAHA

>Multimeltas start revvving up

The point is that Magnus' actions were not the cause of the entire horus heresy. Magnus simply made things worse for the imperium by mistake. Guilty knowledge and wilfulness. A fundamental principle of Criminal Law is that a crime consists of both a mental and a physical element. Mens rea, a person's awareness of the fact that his or her conduct is criminal, is the mental element, and actus reus, the act itself, is the physical element. So, in a way, I guess you could say that Magnus is guilty of manslaughter of the imperium. XD

id argue that they both were. But the Lion was a strategic master so at least he had a use. Where all dorn could do well was fill ditches with his men

I'm absolutely sure they lanced every city on the planet. There's no kindness in destroying everything -but- the people.

AY YO
>smacks lips
YOU TELLING ME
>flamers ignight
YOU TELL ME NIGGA
>multi-melta intensifies
YOU WAS WORSHIPPING AN SHIET?

Lorgar actually choked kor phaeron nearly to death for suggesting that they rebel against the imperium and take up a new faith. If they hadn't of been there to persuade him, Lorgar most likely would have just come around to the emperor's way of thinking out of shear loyalty (although it would probably take some time). He would more than likely still fight for the emperor, but would never worship him again.

The necrontyr. If they hadn't tried to enslave the C'tan, the War in heaven probably wouldn't have happened, and the warp wouldn't have been in utter turmoil leading to the chaos gods sans Slaanesh

Erebus and Kor Phaeron

Your handle on Necron fluff is terrible user. Just terrible.

There is if it's rebuilt afterwards the way it was supposed to be: without the fucking churches. Although it wound up getting Exterminatused anyway.

ayep. Worst possible time for kor to start suggesting shit. Still that alone shows some of the issues with Lorgar. How many other primarchs had issues like this with their direct underlings?

The Sanguinary guard certainly weren't In the habit of doing shit behind their masters back. Angrons bodyguard where outright useless, only lorgar had this kind of problem.

It took the drop site massacre and getting gutted by corax to harden him up

That's a big if, friend. Even then that takes time a population that was not evacuated, cared for or supplied to survive. Not counting the ecological effects of an event like that

>Even then that takes time a population that was not evacuated, cared for or supplied to survive.
But they were user.

By who? I honestly cannot remember the ultrafucks doing anything but forcing people from their homes and butchering dissent.

The word bearers up and left

there was no AdMech presence on the planet

Who brought food, water and shelter to a shattered and dislocated population? I cannot begin to guess

>I saved your lives
>Now starve to death
No.

>mortarion
>gets raised by evil father figure to be evil
>father figure gets killed on planet
>...
>eventually turns to chaos not by choice

>perturabo
>gets raised by evil father figure to be "evil"
>father figure eventually dies but stays on planet
>...
>eventually turns to chaos

>lion'el
>gets raised by semi-questionable father figure
>father figure gets "uplifted" and tags along for most of the crusade
>...
>may or may not have been chaos corrupted

>lorgar
>basically raised by two evil father figures
>both father figures get "uplifted" and tag along for all of the crusade
>...
>is anyone really surprised?

He had too many dads not to fail