Why does Veeky Forums hate kreia so much?

Three facts every vidya player should know:

1) Kreia lies
2) Don't open it
3) Always listen to Professor Oak

Because "Jedi are bad and evil" meme is shit. I blame the prequels for painting them as loveless, emotionless politicians.

loaded question tg doesent hate kreia in any great majority

>Did Chris Avellone explicitly say that he dislikes Star Wars
He said he loved the Star Wars franchise

>and The Force?
I believe he hates how EU Writers portrayed the force, he didn't hate the force in itself

Please itemize Kreia's lies for us, so we may understand.

If you've got a database of all her dialogue in the entire game, I'll be happy to link it back to you.

Kreia telling the player the Jedi council was wrong with their judgment.

Kreia insisting that the Jedi must confront and come to terms with their darkness and not shut it down as it will only be detrimental not only to them but to innocents. That teaching is of the Darkside and Sith

Kreia telling the Jedi Exile she loves him/her as a mother would love her child

The force is using them as pawns.
.
those are the ones I can think of right now

The second to last bit is actually true, I think. Kreia really did think the Exile was her second chance at a proper student, but she herself was so fucked up and contradictory that all she really managed to teach was "maybe get stronger by beating up other people"

and we know how well that went

Thanks! Drop more when you think of them.
Now, to address what you've listed: The council WAS wrong - they held back while mandaloreans murdered innocents and brought the galaxy to darkness - they had to fight the mandos, because mandos don't conquer, mandos fight! Fighting is their modus vivendi.
The darkside MUST be confronted and overcome: that was the whole point of ESB and RotJ. Hiding from darkness, like the council did, led to their undoing and the wars that nearly destroyed the republic. Only the Exile (with Kreia's guidance) averted galactic disaster on an unprecedented scale.
We cannot know if Kreia is lying about her love for the Exile. But, we generally do not bother to take the time to teach those whom we hate, so............
The Force DOES use them as pawns - the jedi EXPLICITLY teach themselves to 'follow the will of the Force'.......

Everything

>every character is a mouthpiece for the author
No. Fuck off.

It's quicker to itemize the things she tells the truth about.

And the other side is chaos-lite terrorists.

Because (omnicidal) nihilism is fucking stupid

Because their fifis got hurt, or they skipped through her dialog so they could go back to handmaiden tiddies.

I remember that stand up bit. It was a good bit.

It smells of an old lady now, sure you want it back?

My penis does

4) Shoot at it until it dies.

Actually applies to a lot of things come to think of it.

I like Kreia. It's interesting to have a nihilistic character like her in a video game series that isn't just super edgy

Because she's a poster child for fanwank sophistry with the intent to give deeper meaning where there is none.

SW purists get mad when their setting's holes get poked

kek

>But, we generally do not bother to take the time to teach those whom we hate,
Sith.

She's a lying salty cunt who's wrong about everything that I cannot rid myself off.

Like any good liar, Kreia does mix in the truth with her lies. And also, again, it doesn't help that in many cases she actually believes her lies.

>"Oh, you have promise. But wait until you have more years fall upon you, and you will see what a shell your heart will become."

Kreia assumes that anyone who gets to be her age is just as cold and manipulative as she is. She doesn't believe in genuine altruism, or else labels it as stupidity.

>"Yes, and what are they without the Force? Take the greatest Jedi Knight, strip away the Force, and what remains? They rely on it, depend on it, more than they know. Watch as one tries to hold a blaster, as they try to hold a lightsaber, and you will see nothing more than a woman – or a man. A child."

Kreia's describing herself. The Exile has survived for years without the Force by this point, and other Jedi in Star Wars history have done just fine without it as well. Indeed, most of the great Jedi teachers have focused on teaching their students to NOT become reliant on the Force.

>Does it matter? Of course it does, such titles allow you to break the galaxy into light and dark, categorize it. Perhaps I am neither, and I hold both as what they are, pieces of a whole. Know that I am your teacher, and that is enough."

It really isn't for most Exiles. Kreia also lets the Exile assume that she's no longer Sith, when in fact she is still very much Darth Traya.

>"You must understand. I did not wish the Jedi dead. Defeated... perhaps. I merely wished them to see that they and their teachings were wrong. That one could not truly understand the Force simply by adhering to the Jedi Code."

The problem is that Kreia's solution is just a variation on the Sith values, though she doesn't admit that to herself. And further, Kreia's understanding of the Force is fundamentally flawed as well - she's no more "right" than she believed the Jedi to be.

There's no point in trying to poke holes is Swiss cheese, because yeah man, moral gray areas and ambiguity in the Force sure fit in a setting where evil isn't a social construct of society but instead is a mystical one that throws you into a giant flaming "no zone" that gives you goofy demonic eyes, a shitty pallid skin condition and a predilection for wearing red and black every time you decide to stab a bitch for the wrong reasons.

Veeky Forums is full of moralists. Moralists have a black and white way of looking at the world, and of moral forces within it. Look at D&D with its alignment system. Things like that strongly engender that kind of attitude in this hobby. Now here's Kreia espousing a philosophy of moral greyness, so obviously it's going to get them upset and spitting fire at her.

whole lotta spooky going on in this post

Star Wars is black and white. Part of that is Lucas distilling The Hero's Journey down to it simplest components leaving little room for nuance. Gripe about that if you must.

But it makes sense in-universe too: The Force is exactly the kind of phenomena that would function in black/white, right/wrong, good/evil.. Its an energy field covering all of existence from the galactic level down to the smallest life forms. Such an entity can't be filtered through Relativism because that is concept that only comes about when individual sentients try to analyse and justify their actions. The force cannot understand and does not care. Its an analogue of the Tao and similar eastern philosophical traditions after all. The Way is right, and all other things are disharmonious. All of nature knows proper path of The Way instinctively. Those that deny its simple truth and try to twist it or veer off the path, even for the best of intentions, none the less invite imbalance into everything they do. They cannot change The Way, but will only harm themselves in trying.

She is an incredibly stupid character, incredibly stupidly written.

>I will betray you, Exile.
>I am a betrayer. I will betray you before the end.
>I will do it, you know. I will betray you.
>I like to betray people. I will like betraying you.
>SHE FUCKING BETRAYS YOU.

We should have had the option to throw her out the airlock 20 minutes in.

People that only pay attention to Lucas' mindless declarations and ignore tons of the EU not simply because it was poor content on an individual basis but because it calls into question Lucas' morality are really irritating. Hell, the Family even showed up in Lucas' pet CGI series. As retarded as they are, their existence and mode of operation strongly support the idea of the force needing both the dark and the light, rather than the dark side being the unnatural one.

Also it ignores completely the contrast between Lucas' version of a good jedi order (soulless robots) with what Luke ends up making (a Jedi order that strongly rejects the whole innactive, unfeeling monk bullshit.)

>she tells you she's going to betray you
>betrays you

if anything it's the Exile whose stupidly written

Why can't I hold all this head canon and personal opinion

>da force needs a darkside

this is what darkside fags actually believe

Also, the thing about eastern spiritual dualism? Both concepts of opposing sides are considered necessary and natural, and often must be brought into harmony for harmony to exist.

The Family aint exactly 'head canon' or EU only anymore, from showing up in the clone wars series.

Do we have to really acknowledge all the EU nonsense that has accumulated over the decades?

After a point it stops from expanding the universe and setting to being outright silly and stupid....and we already have both of those in the canon setting as it is.

I think you're misrepresenting the Tao. It wouldn't be that dark is disharmonious, it's that everything moves towards a equilibrium; not high and low, but left and right. Yin and Yang are separate parts of the same circle.

Voiced by captain Janeway herself.

All the family prove is that the galaxy needs a keeper of balance, which Anakin refused to become by embracing the Darkside. That is assuming you take Luke's realizations in the non-canon books as correct. The One's that appear in TCW are canon, but also erase themselves from the timeline after The Father commits Sudoku.

This
This
She is a shitty creator pet from developer, who hates setting he is working on. Fucktard Avellone done it againo in lonesome road, only Ulysses are WAY worse. Basically, cuck Avellone hates west coast fallout (but likes fallout 3 setting, nuff said about this moron) and want to nuke it out of canon, so he created super-duper mary sue snowflake, hyped it in 3 previous DLC (and base game, sort of) and finaly shoved this "character" down our throat. Lonesome road was a hot garbitch.

Not all of it. My point was that he's rejecting good EU shit too.

Oh, i fucking knew it. Shiiieeeeet.

Fucking this, ToR may have butcherd her as a nuanced villain by making her a generic lunatic but she wasn't this grand "secretly right about everything" person, she was a bitter woman looking to avoid blame for her own deeds and imagined a conspiracy by the force itself to be responsible

He seems like a westerner who learned that Taoism is dualistic and didn't realize that their dualism is founded on balance and not good over evil.

New Vegas is still pretty good user.

>Kreia telling the Jedi Exile she loves him/her as a mother would love her child

She problably likes more the exile than a child of hers. (Specially if you belive handmaiden is her child). All the non-droid companions end with some big kind of atraction to the Exile considering the Force Bonds and all.

The other things it's more opinions than lies.

There's also the fact that the Son, as the embodiment of the darkside, is the one who causes the imbalance in the first place by killing his sister who embodies the lightside.

Darkside dindu nuffin is a good boy just murder sister try to go bad he turn his life around go to church every day

While I agree Avellone tends to hamfist a bit in his writing, I think you're overblowing how bad Ulysses was. Also most of the problems with all of NV writing can be traced to time, budget, cut content, etc. Like every Obsidian game. Except Tyranny which is 100% their fault

The fallacy is you're assuming that light side + darkside = yin + yang.

Lightside is YIN AND YANG, Darkside is rejection of this balance.

>>Kreia telling the Jedi Exile she loves him/her as a mother would love her child

Mothers can hate their children, as any user with a shitty mom could tell you

The Son causing an imbalance is no different than the Jedi trying to eliminate their own emotions causing them to become unbalanced. That is to say, both Dark and Light side are capable of forcing themselves over the other.

>Light side is YIN AND YANG,
Yeah, no. There's not a single bit of dualism embodied in the Light side itself. You're really gonna have to show what you're basing that on here, Lucas.

Would it just be simpler to explain it as there are periods in which light or dark are waxing and waning in power and the balance comes from the constant pendulum like swings that take place in the setting?

Well, yep, my 2 favourite fallout gaems are NV and original. They both have flaws, bet rest of the series are way worse (especially BOS,3 and 4).
>Also most of the problems with all of NV writing can be traced to time, budget, cut content, etc.
Sure, if you talking about base game, but lonesome road, build up to in and hype around chriss mary sue was in dlc`s. What a disapointment. Also, fuck sawyer and his mary sue too (and felicia gay).

If that is your interpretation of balance, then sure. My only point is that the complete rejection of your human self or other forms of trying to completely embrace a side are imbalanced and lead to an inhuman mindset. Giving up on passion entirely is no way for a human to live. Whether that balance is caused by the waxing and waning of the dark and light side, or whether it can be embodied in one harmonious order like the ancient Je'dai, is up to your interpretation. One good thing about a massive mess like the EU is that you'll find evidence for both and other interpretations.

She doesn't want you trying to please her in exchange for a pat on the head, she wants you to distrust even her. I know this is hard for you, having been trained by college to be a good little parrot and get rewarded for repetition, not original thought.

The LIGHTSIDE is yin and yang
The JEDI ORDER is not
That is the problem.

Darkside is a corruption of balance
The Jedi Order was insufficient to maintain balance, because their view of it was flawed (jedi robots, as has been observed)

Anakin was meant to be the chosen one as he was intended to marry empathy and compassion to diligence, self control, and wisdom. Moreover he was meant to repair the damage to the fabric of the force done by the Sith during the great war.

As we see from many of the foibles of the Jedi Masters themselves such as Ploo-Kloon, passion and feelings aren't themselves a problem. Many of them hypocritically rationalize these things while espousing traditional Jedi wisdom (Kloon, Windu, etc). Even Yoda was, to an extent, ruled by his fear. Hence why Jinn was an outsider, he rejected the idea that the councils wisdom was absolute.

>inb4 muh grey jedi

That's not what i'm advocating, Grey Jedi are shit too. I'm saying the Sith Way, which rejects all responsibility and control for a purely individualistic outlook that builds it's power on unrestrained emotion is self destructive, while the OR Jedi order was largely flawed due to going into the opposite extreme. The Force is an entity of life, in order to represent the force Jedi must live.

>tips fedora

Why can't I hold all this head canon and personal opinion. Remind you of someone?

But for a serious answer, you're not citing anything for any of your points. I've seen those stances circulated widely as a fan interpretation, which is fine, but to come in and declare it as fact requires a little bit of support.

Also, I want to make this clear. I don't support the Sith Way. I think they're retards. They and the Jedi are both wrong, and the Sith are wrong in a worse way. What I mean by the dark side is not the Sith interpretation of the force, but the darker side of ourselves, which is reflected in the Force, and those human emotions that the old Jedi Order feared so much.

Even if in the canon movies the light side was meant to be some sort of balance, in KOTOR I it was not.

It is very clear because of the things that gives you light and darkside points.

KOTOR II followed the principles from KOTOR I in this aspect.

It bothers me that Jolee Bindo is often held up as some kind of exemplar of the "grey Jedi" way of doing things, holding the Force in perfect balance or whatnot, when in KOTOR 1 you can open his character page and see that, yup, that's a blue background he's got to his character there. Not much of one, but he's definitely not walking some kind of middle road, he's pretty firmly "light" side.

Jolee was sick of being a Jedi, but he absolutely was still on the side of light.

>Kreia's describing herself. The Exile has survived for years without the Force by this point, and other Jedi in Star Wars history have done just fine without it as well. Indeed, most of the great Jedi teachers have focused on teaching their students to NOT become reliant on the Force.

Post-Kreia, and if the Exile DID rebuild the Jedi it would explain why it became a central tenet.

That would make sense as far as far as Taoism goes but the problem is in the fiction.

The jedi order is consistently represented as the epitome of the light side, when they really aren't.

There's also a bit of cognitive dissonance as far as language goes. The very existence of a "light side" and "dark side" is against Taoist descriptions of there not being that kind of duality.

If I had control over a Star Wars game, I'd have six possible endings, basically boiling down to: Jedi, Good, Unaligned, Evil, Sith, and Failure.

>Kreia's describing herself. The Exile has survived for years without the Force by this point, and other Jedi in Star Wars history have done just fine without it as well. Indeed, most of the great Jedi teachers have focused on teaching their students to NOT become reliant on the Force.

What are you talking about user? The Jedi of her time were extremely reliant on the force, so-much-so that the Jedi exile was abhorrent to them because he was not with the force.

Except canonically the Exile didn't. She went out into the Uncharted Territories looking for Revan. Keeping that in mind I'm not actually sure how the Jedi Order was rebuilt - best guess is either some of the Force-Sensitives that the Exile trained rebuilt it; or else the Sith missed a bunch of Jedi besides the Masters that the Exile found (which is probably the more likely of the two - at the very least we know Bastila survived). Either that or maybe some Force-Sensitive managed to find a Jedi holocron full of Jedi teachings.

>TOR

In Avellone's case, he's made a lot of characters that are explicitly mouthpieces for him. Ulysses was the worst about it.

The Exile was abhorrent to the Council because she (she's canonically female) was completely cut off from the Force, a "wound" in it. This had nothing to do with whether or not Jedi relied on it too much in their day-to-day lives, despite what Kreia otherwise tried to claim.

Had KotOR 3 not been sideline and inevitably discarded for the MMORPG. The Jedi Exile would have rebuilt the order from scratch with the companions she made. before leaving them and going to face a unknown Dark Lord of the Sith that Kreia warn

Hey, it's canon. You don't have to like it, but you do have to accept it.

It's Legends material now senpai. And in regards to Legends, there's so much contradictory shit going on you really have to construct your own lore from bits and pieces you accept, rather than taking everything as fact.

>Tor
>canon
Kek.

Not that user, but I think Kreia is a more extreme example of this.
She says to the Exile to have other abilities and not count only with the Force (basically, to have Skill points), but she almost only had abilities with the force. She disliked robots and didn't speak the utility droid leanguage, even if she had reason to like them because she thought that they were (more) disconnected from the Force.
She was also blind and used the Force to percieve the ambient.
She let her hand be cutted off.
And her fighting style is all about the use of the Force, her class is Jedi Consular, she let the Exile spare with Visas instead of with herself, and in the end she control lightsabers with the Force instead of with her body.

>I believe he hates how EU Writers portrayed the force

And yet he doesn't do any different, literally only the movies have portrayed the force in the way Lucas put it. There are only 2 sides of morality in the SW universe, very very good and very very bad, and anyone who tries to stay neutral like Lando is forced to pick a side through cirumstance. There is no "dark side" as an other side of the coin deal, there is only the Force, and a corruption of the Force the films call the dark side.

That was partially the point. Kreia hated that she had become reliant on the force as Darth Traya, and that she had basically become so crippled by the point she meets you that she cannot be anything but reliant on it. It's part of why she's so bitter.

>Listening to Lucas
Jarjar is key to all this.

It can be canon and have absolutely no effect on the main series what so ever. Being set 1000(?) years in the past just helps with that.

But lucas hated ESB portrayal of the force. Thats why prequel jedis are so gay.

It's only canon if the Lord High Mouse declares it so.

Yes, it can, but not it is. And riddance good.

Grey Jedi aren't an order, it's just an appellation for force users that actively reject the Jedi way (at least in part) without going full Sith about it. It usually requires them to have been or been trained by a Jedi too, rather than being some random force user from any of the smaller sects scattered about.

Man, when I was a teenager and stupid I had a full story idea for a potential KotOR 3. I think it was actually pretty decent...(you) would be a Jedi padawan who'd just about avoided being killed by the Sith, and the game was going to focus on a resurgent (Revanite) Sith Empire armed with clone troopers and cloned Jedi, all organized by the apparent big bad, Darth Rahu, and his apprentice, Darth Mainyu, who would be male or female based on your own character's gender (it would match yours), and wore a mask that was basically a black reflective surface.

The "big reveal" was going to be that (you) were a clone too, as was Mainyu. The whole clone army had been in the works for years but through some contrived circumstance (hadn't worked out what yet) you'd been basically a "prototype" of the clone idea, as had Mainyu. The two of you were identical in the Force and so kind of "resonated" with each other. Mainyu takes over as the real Big Bad about 2/3rds through the game, of course. I'd imagined levels on at least Hoth and Kessel, probably Bespin or some other cloud city as well. And the final level would be on one of Coruscant's moons.

Might one day adapt it into tabletop...

>While I agree Avellone tends to hamfist a bit in his writing, I think you're overblowing how bad Ulysses was.

You literally can't win. No matter what you do in LR, you in some way prove Ulysses right.

I didn't say I agree, I just said that's how the films put it, and the films are the one thing that won't ever become noncanon.

>Fascism is Bad
Hello, /int/.

Did she hate it? She gives no indication of such. Her bitterness comes across more as being about the fact that she's convinced she know the One True Way of the Force but no one understands how "brilliant" it is and instead keep trying to tell her that she's wrong. But she refuses to admit that. She's not wrong, oh no. It's the FORCE that is wrong! And so she will kill the Force.

At some point you gotta say to yourself, do you want Star Wars to be what Lucas or Disney declares it to be, or do you want Star Wars to be what you enjoy, all the interpretations, books, movies, comics, and games that you love interpreted how it makes the most sense to you, as part of this grand setting?

Manchildren hate that someone tried to do something slightly more interesting than not at all in their manchild setting. She's a character that should have just been in a setting that isn't garbage.

I'm an autistic stickler for canon. I blame it on my religious upbringing, we used to murder each other over what in the bible is canon and what's apocryphal.

Here's the thing, guy: I DON'T hate Kreia. I love her as a character. She's a fantastic character, a great villain, and I love that she is at once a consummate liar AND the main source of exposition in the game, because it lets the game really fuck with your perception of things before finally, in the end, realizing that she was wrong.

What I hate are people who forget that final part - who forget that KREIA LIES and that she is objectively wrong about the Force. I don't hate the character, I hate her fans.

Yes. I thought it was obvious from her backstory, that she is very, very bitter from what happened to her and her reliance on a force that she felt lead her astray and helped cripple her, before betraying her entirely. I never got the vibe that she was supposed to be right about everything, and while her feelings towards moral greyness are compelling and may be correct to a degree, the work never gave me any indication that her belief in destroying the Force was justified or anything other than the work of a bitter, defeated old woman.

>she is objectively wrong about the Force
It's a gross oversimplification to declare someone completely wrong or completely right. Kreia was definitely wrong about some things, but other ones, not necessarily so. It's her conclusions that must be investigated for validity, not her individual points, and they must be looked at individually.