Casters are better than you

Who the fuck needs armor when you can conjure warp barriers?

And what are you gonna do when somebody makes a dagger that pierces warp barriers, huh? You're gonna bleed to death with that dagger stuck in you neck, that's what.
Wear your armor, kids.

>a dagger that pierces warp barriers

Oh, you poor thing. Using a MAGICAL dagger now? Battle-mages are at least respectable. How else is a martial going to win against magic? With a non-magical dagger? kek

Cool, can you stop making this fucking thread now?

>Martial makes anti-magic dagger from special ore
>Stabs you
>You die

>Martial makes anti-magic dagger from special ore
>Stabs me
>It shatters and I backhand them, because I'm in big fucking armor along with magical wards

Hey hi so my blade negates magic protection and my armour can deflect anything magical. I am also a very experienced spellcaster who is essentially a one man army. How ever will you deal with me?

>there is no reason why they shouldn't be
>there is no reason for martials to be their equals or above
You make the presumption that physical limits in a fantasy universe are the same as our shit reality.

>Martial makes anti-magic dagger from special ore
>Stabs you
>It was actually a holographic mirror image bomb trigger
>you get blown to bits

>Martial makes anti-magic dagger from special ore
>Stabs me
>Oh fuck a wizard enchanted it to slice through any conceivable metal with anti-anti-magic
>dead

So you're essentially a wizard.

Too many options for a wizard to lose to a martial

Anons here will never admit it though

I am a battlemage who focuses on battle.

What happens when a wizard teleports a grenade in your ballsack, effectively bypassing your armor?

How a setting where every professional soldier was a caster would look like? Let's say most nations would be able to field armies of 30.000-40.000 fifth level casters, with proportionally smaller number of higher level casters as officers and specialists.

What is a grenade?

I would imagine there's a wizard out there with anti-anti-magic. Or just better anti-magic than yours.

It largely depends on the setting. But 99% of every fiction wizards outmatch martials. Big time.

>Faggy mages have to do this many mental gymnastics to justify wearing a bathrobe and pissing sparkles
Me and my Dark Knight friends are laughing at you.

Something that was used to ruin your future chances of having children.

I have yet to meet him.
Oh. In that case I'm safe since I've already gone cross-country just to impregnate random women, thus cementing my legacy.

>Because casters can summon meteors from the heavens
Which can be crushed or sliced by a martial, even barehandedly if they've the strength
stop time
With prep time for the spell or scroll, meanwhile a high level martial could speed blitz your shit before you get out the incantation
>turn their enemies to stone
See above. Unless you've got a distraction to prevent the guy from getting to you before you finish casting you're gonna get loved not so gently by whatever weapon they have on hand
>while martials are good at handling sharp implements
Which you can die to as easily as anyone else. Dragons, some of the most powerful magic casters around, can be felled by a sword that's in the right hands.

The thing with casters and martials is the time it takes for them to get shit done. A proper caster can shake the continent if you give them enough time to prepare. A martial of similar stature meanwhile might only reduce a mountain to rubble, but goddamn if he can't reduce a lot of fucking mountains to rubble in the time it takes for the caster to get everything together.

sure, you caster types may be superior... But I still think the warrior who isn't afraid to use their hands is cooler.

...

You're delusional. But then again, so are caster fags. The power has gone to their heads.

Well considering that dragons fly without magic, giants don't die under their own weight and trolls can regenerate from all their limbs cut off limits are definitely different.

This things imply much higher maximum bone density and strength, and much more effective muscles. Dragons are at least 10 times over the maximum flying mass limit. And trolls are fucking trolls who can regenerate without consuming additional mass and still not count as magic.

Why do martial fags get so angry?

>Because casters can summon meteors from the heavens
Which can be crushed or sliced by a martial, even barehandedly if they've the strength
>stop time
With prep time for the spell or scroll, meanwhile a high level martial could speed blitz your shit before you get out the incantation
>turn their enemies to stone
See above. Unless you've a distraction or are constantly wasting time better used studying to make a shit ton of redundancy scrolls you're likely going to get loved not so gently by whatever the martial has on hand
>while martials are good at handling sharp implements
Which you can die to as easily as anyone else. Dragons, some of the most powerful magic casters around, can be felled by a sword that's in the right hands.

The thing people don't seem to realize about casters & martial did the amount of time it can take for them to get shit done from the word "go". A properly powerful caster could shake apart the continent with enough time and resources, but that's the thing: he needs the time and resources. A martial meanwhile is restrained to physical ability and might only manage to crumble mountains, but goddamn if that martial can't crumble a shit ton of mountains in the time it takes for the caster to get started.

>SHOULD
>playing pretend
Cool story bro.

>implying you'll hit a blurred mirror imaged shielded mage armored caster
You'd have a better shot at hitting full plate

So, is the plan to troll Veeky Forums with these threads every day until Veeky Forums gets tired of pointlessly arguing about a solved issue that was only ever a problem when a number of specific factors occurred at the same time and is now reduced to the equivalent of asking why birds can't fly with their wings pinned down?
Because I see a problem with that working which has nothing to do with the question.

HOW ARE CASTERS NOT THE BEST

Gishing was never good (no, not even in 4e where the Swordmage was doomed to play second filddle to the fighter forever).

Is it just me, or are D&D casters fucking stupid? You don't see this "can alter reality willy nilly with a comprehensive bag of tricks at zero risk and cost" anywhere but D&D and the loose knit bag of unthematic tricks is just goofy.

Magic is an arbitrary fictional force that can have whatever capabilities or limitations you want in your setting. So you're right that there's no reason they shouldn't be stronger than martials, but there's also no reason they should be. I don't really know why, as a RPG system or setting designer, you'd want to both make magic so effortlessly overpowered AND make "martials" potential player characters.

CASTERS EXIST SO I CAN TEAR THEM APART WITH MY BARE MARTIAL HANDS

Because there's no such thing as wizards, just deities and demigods that look human and have strange powers thanks to their divine nature. Anyone who studies magic can, at best, wiggle their fingers and chant nonsense to extend their lives by a few seconds while the martials share a look before stabbing them.

And if you want to be a magic user then you need to take a +20 LA template for being a half supernatural bastard. The only thing it does is allow you to take levels in caster classes.

its not just you, its a glaring flaw in the system.

the power fantasy is fine with me, only if it were equivalent and the game had some semblence of balance.

but the creators have outright said they didnt make D&D with much emphasis on balance in the recent years

It didn't used to be so bad, but every edition made things easier and easier for casters until anything resembling limits was gone. 3.PF are the worst, 4e rebalanced things one way and I hear 5e did it another, neither are perfect but 5e is probably an improvement at least.

Being stuck with friends that love PF, I can at least recommend Spheres of Power, where casters need to invest heavily in a given sphere to get good, making them thematic and somewhat more limited. Although some spheres are better than others, but at least it's a start.

I wish I had taken a screenshot of it, but a few years ago now one of the PF devs made a post trying to justify why casters are more powerful than Greek deities and martials suck ass, but you didn't even need to read between the lines, just sort of squinting was enough. The whole thing was embarrassing to read through, full of "we got bullied before and now this is our nerd revenge fantasy, we hold the power here, being smart should matter more than anything else, we're trying to defend all geeks from macho influences, etc." You could almost hear him crying as he typed.

Are you sure it wasn't that guy who did a complete 180 on a bunch of stupid things he had once defended the moment he left the company so his job didn't depend on it?

What's a good example of a system that employs a good balance between martials and casters, more in terms of giving martials roughly equally interesting options rather than just combat power?

It's not shitty if it still triggers people into giving OP (you)'s.

ODND

So a Cleric then?

>... *states at you blankly*

>neither are perfect but 5e is probably an improvement at least.
Please, there are still combos that allow you to stack multiple effects on top of each other and martials still suck ass to play because they can only hit people really fucking hard consistently because they don't have enough resources to do cool guy shit all the fucking time.

Anyone who says 5e doesn't suffer from caster supremacy is delusional.

Paladin 2 / Sorcerer X

4E

You think Veeky Forums is bad nowadays, so what do you do? Do you try to make it better with quality content? Do you just give up and leave? No - you just feed the dumpster fire that we are.

You don't even make any good troll threads. You don't even think about it, put any kind of effort into it that could be used for quality discussion and some fun. No, it's always the lowest-hanging fruit for you, the easiest bait. You are the worst kind of scum - not just a troll, but a lazy unimaginitive troll as well.

Fuck you, you lazy asshole. Fuck you, and your ancestors to a dozen genreations. You've given up. You've lost your soul. You're all but dead.

I name you defeatist dog. Kindly put it on your name tag so that I can filter you the fuck away and nevermore need to deal with these threads.

D&D used to have completely different exp tables for classes. A party that started at the same level and gained the same experience would end up being at different stages in their development at the same time. It wasn't uncommon to have a "balanced" group consisting of: Cleric lvl4, Thief lvl5, Fighter lvl4, Wizard lvl3.

OD&D also granted casters their choice of starting spells (which were fewer in number, and cantrips worked differently), and sometimes allowed them one new spell upon level up. All other spells had to be researched, looted, copied from scrolls, etc. The DM tightly controlled all access to spells.
Ritual casting wasn't a thing, material components could be expensive as fuck, and casters only regained their spell slots after a full eight hours of uninterrupted meditation. Trying to meditate in an occupied dungeon was impossible.

Oh and if you lost your spellbook, you're fucked and have to start all over with zero spells. Some mages tattooed their most vital spells on themselves for this reason.

Nu-D&D removed every barrier casters faced. 5e seeks to correct the power-creep but it's not quite there. Casters are meant to be a toolbox, not gods among men.

Stop replying to these god damn bait threads

They're just pretending to be retarded

Forgot your sage, mate.

>Claims OP posts shitty vait.
>Thread gets posted daily and consistently reaches bump limit.

>Claims the solution is to create quality threads.
>Said quality threads fall to the bottom of the catalog with less than 50-100 posts overall.

>Could've decided to ignore the troll thread and not give OP (you)'s.
>Instead pops in and gives OP (you)'s, ensuring that the thread reaches bump limit.

Maybe you should go into your bathroom and drink some chemicals until you no longer have to worry anymore.

Because of idiots who assume that 3.5 and PF is how things are supposed to be and not a staggering example of game balance, and who use false equivalence and dishonest debating when trying to debate the topic, often acting like insufferable cunts while doing so.

So why do people think that a metal sword can trump a heart stopping lightning bolt?

Reminder that op SHOULD kill himself

there is no reason for why he shouldn't
there is no reason to stop him
there is no reason to be sad about it

>Claims
Neither of those things were claimed in the post you're quoting. Perhaps you'll need to get better at reading comprehension?
>Could've ignored
You didn't ignore it either. You're not only an illiterate moron but also a hypocrite.

How about you join OP in his bathroom and you had a contest over who manages to drink all those chemicals first.

Thanks for giving the thread an extra (you) sperg.

Thanks for bumping your own thread, dog.

The fuck is this thing with (you)s anyway? It's just somebody saying something to you. It feels like an autistic obsession over fucking nothing.

Well, if you get happy over something so simple, then who am I to judge. Have another one.

Keep 'em coming sperg, that'll surely result in Veeky Forums sucking marginally less in the near future.

Imagine all the "quality threads" that would still be in the catalog if you bothered to exercise restraint and give those threads (you)'s instead of this one.

Ah well.

>the guy who studied and mastered the fabric of the multiverse stands at the height of mortal power, traverses space and time, works literal miracles and contends with demons and gods
>a sword to the chest still kills him

I see nothing wrong with this. If you want to play the guy who swings hard bits of material at others, you're just a killer (or a hero, if you do it righteously). Do not expect to the equal of someone who seeks to transcend mortality, be it in terms of versatility, usefulness or world impact.

>to *be* the equal

Goddamn it!

I was just about to post my own casters vs martials funposting thread.

How many people are doing this now?

Imagine all the quality threads we could keep up if we worked together - if both of us bumped them, made them, and you didn't make threads such as these to stoke the flames. I don't really even see how shallow a person would have to be to do this, what kind of satisfaction he'd get from the foregone conclusion of an autosage, what manner of self-importance he'd feel from kicking a dying board in the ribs another time. It's a strange and alien thing for me to think of.

We could make miracles together, but you just had to be a cunt.

Goes for too. Kindly cut it out.

>Kill a mage
>Lol, turns out it's a simulacrum and the actual wizard is scrying you from the safety of their demiplane.

No no, do it. Post it right now.

Drown Veeky Forums in this bullshit. Have like three of them around at the same time. Kill threads for them. It's the only way Veeky Forums will ever learn to not reply to them.

Warriors and wizards were never equals, not even in old D&D - they were different, had different roles, different things they did together. That was the point.

In 3e wizards completely blew them away. In 4e, and to some extent in 5e, they are truly equals - which isn't as bad as what 3.PF had, sure, but also nowhere near as good as OD&D's way of doing it.

If people want to bump blatant troll threads for no adequately explained reason then who are we to deny ourselves (you)'s from spergs who apparently have either the memories of a goldfish or the inhibitions of a lemming?

Trolls want (you)'s and they will continue to make bait until the (you)'s stop coming. So instead of bumping these threads with your autistic crusade, why not just...leave?

5e is just as broken as 3.PF, it's just that you don't notice right away because there's a severe lack of options overall.

>So instead of bumping these threads
I am saging, you know.

Saging has never mattered even when they were visible. At best, you saged a thread that was already dying or you've given trolls another (you), which inspires them to shit on you more and undo whatever sage you used.

Seriously, you know it's a troll thread, you know it's a troll thread that has been posted multiple times in the past few days, and yet you continue to post in them?

Are you familiar with the definition of insanity?

I agree.

Wrong asshole.

If you've ever actually played 5e with a Mage in the group you'd hear them say "Shit- I got nothing" more than once in a decent adventure.

That's funny, because I usually hear the martials calling out for smoke breaks because they ran out of HP or their resources like superiority dice.

>Please, there are still combos that allow you to stack multiple effects on top of each other and martials still suck ass to play because they can only hit people really fucking hard consistently because they don't have enough resources to do cool guy shit all the fucking time.

Given how combat oriented D&D is, being able to take out anything you hit in one or two shots is pretty fucking cool.

In the campaign I'm in right now there is an optimized Paladin in our group that literally does the same thing every single time his turn comes up (runs up to something and smites it). And you know what? It never gets old because I know something is going to die or get severely fucked up on his turn, thereby making combat easier for the rest of us.

>Are you familiar with the definition of insanity?
I just love Veeky Forums so.

I've been here ever since the beginning. I've seen its rise, its fall. I was there to witness the porn floods, the elf slaves, the anime quest spams. I was there for Server Crash, VeloCITY, and Dranon's Delight. I participated in Ruby Quest.

Perhaps you are right that by some definition it would make me insane.

But I can with some certainty say that Veeky Forums has never been more boring and less appealing than it is right now.

We've driven everyone else away. Many things that once were, are now banned, and with those things being banned, many a good drawfag or writefag that came here for them also left. The old guard is gone. All that's left is trolls such as you, their completely identical and boring threads. Worse than elf slaves, because at least from those you could get a bunch of new porn. Worse than Flare, because at least in those we were united. Worse even than Jim Profit, because at least he could be filtered away.

I feel kind of like an elf that's gone through the wonders of the First Age that can never again return. For a while I try to prompt others into doing what they can to keep the fire alive, instead of stamping out what's left of it. But that, it would seem, brings us back to the definition of insanity you just brought up.

No. You're absolutely right. There's nothing to do about it anymore. The dream is dead, and we can either help kill it, or leave. You chose the former. I will now choose the latter.

I still think you too could find something better to do, though. If not on Veeky Forums, then elsewhere. If it's so dead, you might as well just go outside.

saging never works as weapon

any sage post is cancelled effortleslly by a simple bump

Thing is, dealing damage has never been a weakness for most martials, it's the fact that they can only afford to hit well in a game that supposedly bills itself on the three pillars (roleplay, exploration, and combat).

That, and nothing's stopping a mage from shitting out big damage numbers either if they wanted to in addition to the other SoL/SoD spells that they have in their spell book.

That's only if the system/setting allows Magic to have few to no drawbacks, which is dumb. Anything on the level of reality warping should have some cost to it or need more time/materials to prepare.

>But I can with some certainty say that Veeky Forums has never been more boring and less appealing than it is right now.
Exactly.

>Eldritch Knight
>Arcane Trickster
>Blade Warlock
>Paladin
>Ranger
>Bladesinger Wizard
>Multiple Cleric Domains, especially War
Even without UA content, 5e has more than enough ways to play "guy who fights and casts spells".
>waah some of them are divine classes
That's a retarded arbitrary division that isn't even mechanically present in 5e. Also, the SCAG suggests making changes to existing classes for your enjoyment such as arcane-powered paladins.

It works out in my experience. Casters depend on the occasional long rest, which may become entirely unfeasible when the party descends into some extensive cavern or dungeon. Spell use has to be conservative until you find yourself in a crucial encounter. Short rests are all you have until then, but they still allow martials to function at peak efficiency.

It's all a question of how well the DM understands the design and the demands of the system. If he allows 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep wherever you are, of course the drawbacks of casters will vanish.

>That, and nothing's stopping a mage from shitting out big damage numbers either if they wanted to in addition to the other SoL/SoD spells that they have in their spell book.

Not in the campaign I'm in right now. I mean sure, for the first one or two encounters the mages are invaluable. Any more than that and they can only offer cantrip damage.

It's threads like these that remind me why I like low or NO magic settings.

Because you're a martialcuck?

>But I can with some certainty say that Veeky Forums has never been more boring and less appealing than it is right now.
this

>Veeky Forums has never been more boring and less appealing than it is right now.

So fucking true it hurts. They cut /v/ into pieces and bled it into the shithole it is now, and they've done the same to Veeky Forums.

Because of piss-wizards like you :^)

Why not start an interesting thread with an informative discussion instead of complaining and bumping a b8 thread.

How can Veeky Forums be so easy to troll? These threads are the equivalent of posting interracial cuckold porn on /pol/

That's a shame.

I quite like playing with martials. They're very usefull for carrying around all my spell components and artifacts.

Its because OP is right, there is an issue with casters

Even a wooden hammer can destroy a glass cannon