/swg/ Service Guarantees Citizenship

He's saying it's not new or shocking, not that it "isn't mass murder", because the Sith only did to the Jedi what the Jedi previously did to the Sith.

Imagine a movie which only shows horrible Soviet soldiers raping Germans and plundering Berlin in 1945, with no prior context. Those Soviets would be horrible, evil people, wot? Yes, but...

Two wrongs don't make a right, but showing two wrongs being committed certainly shows the balance of where evil and good reside (or don't).

okay, now that might be fun

I might try the meme build sometime

>mass murder isnt mass murder if other people did it before

To be fair it's a pretty different situation when both sides are basically combatants relentlessly opposed to each other's very existence who strive to seek out and kill or turn any and everyone they can find of that opposing side. Becoming a Jedi immediately makes you a combatant of the Sith, and becoming a Sith immediately makes you a combatant of the Jedi.

Except he uses that to justify Palpy 'not being evil'.

Which is ridiculous.
Mass murder doesnt become okay just becuase it's a supposed 'revenge' for something (especially when that something happened hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago like in Star Wars).
And in your example, yes, what the Soviets did to the Germans was evil.
With or without context.
While, yes, becoming a Sith means you are immediately and completely brought up to hate and detest the Jedi - at that point in time, the Jedi believe the Sith to be extinct.
As far as they know, the Sith are a cautionary tale - 'Dont go to the Dark Side, or this is what awaits you' - or at worst, something awful from the past which might one day rise again.

The Sith exist to wrest power for themselves and to kill the Jedi. At the time of the Clone Wars at least, the Jedi exist to defend the republic. The Sith arent really a piece of their raison d'etre at that point - not until Maul, at least.

This is vaguely my point, yeah.

I mean, what was Palps supposed to do? The moment he's revealed as being a Sith, what happens? The Jedi come to kill him. They don't negotiate, reason, or bargain, they come in a force of four Jedi masters to kill him for being a Sith.

What happens when the opportunity arises for the Sith to kill the Jedi? The Sith take it. No reasoning, no bargaining, they enact in force a killing of the Jedi.

Even when Mace "Thrown out the" Windu thinks he's beaten Palpatine and Palpatine ruses a mercy-begging to turn Anakin, Mace has no mercy on him. He goes in for the kill. You could argue Mace could see Palpatine was just feigning everything to get Anakin on his side, but even still, there's no guarantee. For all we know Mace did believe he'd won against this seemingly helpless old man pleading for his life and he was ready to kill him immediately.

The Jedi and Sith both rarely if ever show mercy to the other and almost never have in the past as far back as KOTOR. They're engaged in an ideological war and are ready and very willing to annihilate the other side if it furthers their own goals.

It sucks and it's pretty morbid considering the general whimsy of Star Wars, but it's the truth. Both groups are and always were massive cunts to each other. There's no room for either group to coexist and cooperate with the other and not even any desire to.

>I mean, what was Palps supposed to do? The moment he's revealed as being a Sith, what happens? The Jedi come to kill him. They don't negotiate, reason, or bargain, they come in a force of four Jedi masters to kill him for being a Sith.

They went to arrest him first and foremost. He is the one who drew first blood. It wasn't until Palpatine killed the other three that Mace decided Palpatine needed to die, right then and there.

>Mass murder doesnt become okay just becuase it's a supposed 'revenge' for something (especially when that something happened hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago like in Star Wars). And in your example, yes, what the Soviets did to the Germans was evil. With or without context.

I fully agree with you here, but the big difference is that what happened in WWII was done to civilians and surrendered combatants, mostly. Order 66 was done in more or less an active war between two sides against their fighters.

The Jedi Knights were soldiers of the Jedi Order. They weren't civilians nor did they surrender.

I'm not going to say them getting wiped out didn't suck, and it sucked for the Sith too, and all of this still doesn't justify it, but I don't think it's maniacal pure evil. The whole idea of winning a war is preventing your enemy from being able to fight back, right?

The Jedi and Sith were very much at war and always had been. Order 66 was a means for the Sith to win that war, and the Jedi had done very similar things to win their war too.

It sucks and perhaps in the end it's pretty evil for both sides to do it, but it doesn't make Palpatine an unforgivably terrible and horrendous asshole. It makes him a Sith. Killing Jedi is what Sith do, just like killing Sith is what Jedi do.

Welcome to the confusing and violent world of religious orders interpreting the Force.

>2 fags arguing about whether the big bad of an 80s action movie is bad or really bad

Way to kill the thread losers

>Order 66 was done in more or less an active war between two sides against their fighters.

You're right, those under-10s looked real threatening for the future of the Sith regime.

Sure, the Jedi council, the Masters, the Knights - killing them is a standard act of war.
Killing the children off, and then killing any force sensitive in the years following isnt an act of war.
It's an act of genocide.

Actually we're arguing about Revenge of the Sith which is from the 00s.

And if you desperately want to talk about something else, not like we're stopping you, fucko.

Pretty questionable considering they drew their sabers and got into combat poses before Palpatine had even drawn a weapon. A later scene also makes Mace's honesty questionable. He tells Palpatine the Senate will decide his fate, but when Anakin suggests the same thing Mace says the Senate would side with him because of his connections and ties, and that he's too dangerous to be left alive. It seems pretty damn likely that Mace and the Jedi with him were planning to kill Palpatine all along and that he himself may've been trying to deceive Palpatine into letting his guard down.

They weren't even warned that Palpatine was a Sith until they were getting ready to go to arrest him in the first place, dude. And all that, they STILL opened with "You are under arrest."

They didn't open with an attack, Palpatine did. And when he attacked, the Jedi had the authority to return lethal force.

>Pretty questionable considering they drew their sabers and got into combat poses before Palpatine had even drawn a weapon.

In fairness, the police do the same thing if they believe someone has a weapon.

>just like killing Sith is what Jedi do.
But that's not true.

The argument could be made both ways that the Jedi acted like police or that they came with the intent to whack Palpatine without the authority of law, really. It's hard to tell when you're dealing with a movie full of a mix of bland acting, bad writing, and over-the-top amazingness from some of its actors, namely Ian.

The other thing is Lucas didn't know or care about any of this crap being argued. He wanted to sell Stormtrooper helmets and Yoda cereal.

It kind of is though.

But that's my point - 'a jedi is a jedi' is the same as 'a german is a german' in your previous example.

The jedi younglings (i will never stop hating that word) were part of the order, yes, but they were also children - children who were taken from their families as babies and forced into the Jedi Order.
Children were forced into the hitler youth as well, did they deserve to be killed?

Yeah, that's the part that makes it hardest to argue.
I wish Lucas wasnt quite so much of a hack. Who knows what we'd be arguing about now.

What the shit? Palpatine is obviously and undeniably evil! There is no debating that fact, guy's pure evil for the sake of being evil, and he loves every second of it.
How can someone be so blind as to not be able to see that?

>muh brighter future
Nope, he's just a maniac asshole with power
>muh Vong
He's not trying to protect the galaxy, he's trying to protect HIS galaxy
>muh Empire
Also evil
>muh-
No. Evil.

This one I won't try to justify, since it's definitely the most truly-evil of the whole thing, but it's worth noting the intent and why the decision was made.

A Jedi is still a Jedi. Even a young teenager was able to threaten several Clone troopers.

Again, don't wanna justify it though.

The argument could be made, yes, but the evidence supports the premise that they were there to arrest him. Considering that's what they say.

Palpatine is such a cunt that he put measures in place to deliberately collapse the Empire and ruin the galaxy in the event of his death. There is no space for argument here.

>STOP TALKING MY ARGUMENT IS RIGHT YOU CANT DEBATE IT

From your point of view, Anakin.

Like I said, this is where the argument gets tough.

Agreed with Lucas though. I don't hate the guy but I do know he pulled 95% of the canon and lore out of his ass the majority of the time, and by Return he was starting to cut corners in favor of merchandising.

Remember when Han was supposed to get killed in the bunker assault?

In the way that killing criminals is what police do, sure. It's not exactly their mission statement.

Yeah, this is valid in Nu-canon.
Thank Chuck 'Cuck' Wendig

A-Wings are about to get a new lease on life with Cruise Missile. It'll really give them some teeth.

What continuity are we talking about? It depends on which you follow.

In NuCanon he set things up to collapse without him, yeah.

In EUCanon he literally builds a small clone army of himself and comes back with a vengeance to restore and maintain the Empire twice. It falls apart because of other Warlords being greedy cunts and kicking out the good guys who wanted to keep the peace and hold the whole thing together.

Face it tiger, Nu-Canon is here to stay and it's not any worse than the old EU, you're just emotionally attached to the latter.

Jedi aren't police though, they're warriior-monks in a religious order that's been devoted to fighting and destroying the Sith for thousands upon thousands upon thousands of years.

Same with the Sith too.

I don't see how you think the Jedi aren't meant to fight the Sith.

That's primarily nucanon and doesnt quite apply to what mightve been the way things were planned originally and to what we're discussing.

In old EU, he planned to just reclone himself ad infinitum.

In new canon though, yeah, Palpy is undisputably a dickhead.
Though, newcanon just generally isnt as good - nor is it as deep, unsurprisingly since theyve only had a couple of years.
Maybe one day it'll be as interesting and varied as the old stuff.

In fairness, Ford wanted Han to die there - would've been a good character arc for him as well, going from selfish smuggler through to selfess self-sacrifice for a cause greater than himself.
IN the end, I'm really happy he didnt becuase fuck me, the EU would've been very different in the old days if he'd died there.
But still. It would've been good.

But yeah, with regards to your second version of the post - I *had* forgotten about the teenager that Organa nearly saves.
That said, he's a step beyond the younglings though - they dont even have real sabers in there, they're just wiggling training ones in the air.

I can see your point about it 'just being war', but it's not quite that neat.
I guess it's easier for the Jedi's actions to be justified when you've got 2 highly trained warrior assasins who want to rule the galaxy, versus a full blown order of thousands from century old masters down to 4 year old children and thousands of support staff besides that.

NuCanon, as that's where movie continuity... continues from. Of course, in the EU Palpy acted more like an ends-justify-the-means Oligarch than a narcisstic psychopath.

>implying a centralized base of power isn't the quickest way to clean up the absolute mess that was the republic
>implying the entire empire is evil just because you don't like one guy who doesn't actually do anything unreasonable to the average citizen

>children who were taken from their families as babies and forced into the Jedi Order.

Reminder that this is a completely voluntary action taken by the parents and with only rare (and now non-canonical) exceptions.

Likewise, in 99% of examples of the Sith and Jedi waging war, it's the Sith who attack first. The only exception is the Pius Dea Crusades, which aren't canon anymore.

EUCanon had some really terrible elements, but I'd take its good material any day over the works of Chuck the Cuck or Kathleen "Fuck Your Fandom" Kennedy.

In the EU it was probably a 60/40 ratio of bad/good content, whereas with NuCanon there's maybe one or two pieces of fiction at most that are any good, and two IN MY OPINION bad movies.

>who doesn't actually do anything unreasonable to the average citizen
except that the empire was canonically fucking the average citizen over with mad taxes and tariffs

>Implying that the Republic wasn't a mess solely because of the Sith working to corrupt it in the first place.

>bad movies

>Force Awakens
I understand why you'd find it bad. IMO it was... not spectacular, but certainly enjoyable.

>Rogue One
I'll fite you m8

>anons make it pretty clear they're discussing canon from an eu perspective
>"YEAH DOG BUT THATS NOT CANON ANYMORE SO YOURE WRONG!"

What did he mean by this, guys?

That's why I prefer the EU over NuCanon most of the time. Not just that it portrays Palps better, but that it's generally more deep and fleshed out. Granted it'd had way more time, but everything in NuCanon comes off as, and I'm gonna sound like a pretentious grogfag here, very simple and watered down.

Like Palps. In EU he had multiple contingency plans to restore the Empire should he die, many plot lines following, and overall he himself was more of an authoritarian oligarch rather than a narcissistic psychopath. He had motivations, ideas, goals, hopes, fears, all of that. And sure, the clones storyline of him isn't great and gets ended by insultingly out of place deus ex machina twice in a row, but still it's something.

What about NuCanon? Palps (sorry, Sheev) set the Empire to blow up if he lost. And he's just an evil bad meaniepants...... buy our toys.

Yeah, I think I know what I'm gonna go with on this one.

The Jedi existed long before the Sith. The Sith themselves are a Jedi offshoot turned evil, and nearly every galactic scale war in both canon and Legends was their doing. So of course the Jedi are going to fight them.

But fighting Sith isn't remotely the Jedi's sole purpose. Especially since the Jedi and literally everyone else thought the Sith had been extinct for a thousand years before Palpatine reared his face.

In terms of EUCanon the effects of the Empire ranged from unnoticeable for its outward-from-core citizens to significantly better than the Republic for its inward-towards-core citizens.

Taxes were higher and some freedoms restricted but generally citizens were left alone. The economy greatly improved and a lot more work was available too, and crime and slavery (outside of Hutt Space) was cracked down on significantly.

Even in the NuCanon the SCAR leader guy says that after the Empire was formed life on his home planet became much better than it had ever been under the Republic.

That's not to say the Empire was peachy everywhere or solved all of the Republic's problems, but for the average citizen life was pretty good.

>more of an authoritarian oligarch rather than a narcissistic psychopath

Nah, this isn't true. He was still ridiculously evil and narcissistic in the EU. There's like one source total that implies he wasn't, and that was from one character stating that's the way Palpatine was, years and years after his death.

To be fair to NuCanon, Palpy didn't set the Empire up to fail simply for the lulz, but also as a cover to his big Social Darwinism on Crack project that'd see only the toughest Imperials surviving and retreating to uncharted territory to then form the First Order in order to do.... Something? The plan seems to work, as they've already wrecked the New Jedi Order AND the New Republic.
We know he had his eyes on some Big Important McGuffin out there, and hopefully the new trilogy will flesh out just what the hell it is in a satisfying way. For now I'm withholding judgement.

The problem with nailing down specific characterizations in the Expanded Universe is that the Expanded Universe always was bafflingly inconsistent and self-contradictory, and it didn't help that a lot of Star Trek fanfic writers went on board the Lucas license moneytrain to write incredibly bizarre and out of place stories, like those Crystal Star books with Emo Luke and werewolves.

I'm pretty sure in the EU the Empire blatantly discriminated against non-humans, while NuCanon decided to tone the overt nazi parallels down.

On the other hand, in the Ahsoka book big E basically fucks over a whole planet in the rim for some quick nutraloaf and that sort of thing happening isn't irregular.

>but also as a cover to his big Social Darwinism on Crack project that'd see only the toughest Imperials surviving
which incidentally was also what he did in the old EU, letting the warlords batter each other before he came back and gathered the 'tougher' survivors up

I was under the impression the First Order were renegades that even Palps thought were too fanatical or hardlined.

Then again I don't follow Nucanon or have much interest to, not until I see some good stuff and see Wendig get kicked off the team and all of his books removed from the storyline.

If the empire was so good, how was the rebellion able to gain any traction among the population to be remotely a threat?

Nu or EU canon?

I'm guessing Nu. I don't think Ahsoka was a thing in EU fluff.

The Empire was humanocentric, yeah, though near-humans often got along about the same. It wasn't perfect but it wasn't evil, I don't think.

Don't worry, Empire apologists will spin up a nice narrative about extremist religion for you

Not just that, they had massive support in the SENATE when he disbanded it.

Which is something that doesn't get mentioned much when talking about stuff Emps did. He disbanded representative government and democracy.

Ahsoka book is Disney approved.

Most of the earliest Rebels were Republic soldiers or allies of disgruntled senators that later formed the Rebel leadership. Palpatine did have political opponents.

Separatists made up the bulk of the early Rebellion, as in very very early Rebellion, fighting forces, and then aliens who didn't enjoy the Empire's humanocentricism.

The senators also had monetary connections and bribes for support, as well as (ultimately hollow) promises of power for some influential leaders to support them.

Tarkin's decision to destroy Alderaan probably gave them the most support, and the Rebellion definitely spinned that for all it was worth.

After the Battle of Yavin the Rebellion became more of a conventional military force with regular enlistment and paygrades, so it was like joining any other army.

And the Empire did have a few incidents of bad actions towards certain places and peoples, just like any massive government would, and the Rebellion would make use of those too to get people on their side. The Hutts also aided the Rebels for cash, and they aided the Empire too. The Rebels did have a heavy reliance, especially early on, on criminals and pirates.

So overall a big mix of old loyalties, bribery, money, promises of power or certain changes, aliens, Separatists, criminals, disgruntled people, and regular enlistees.

You don't have to be good or have an evil opponent to make people join you. Plenty of people willingly and loyally fought for the Empire too.

Not saying the Empire is good or evil or the Rebellion is good or evil. Being neutral here.

Plot. Space vietnam from the place of the US doesn't look so good on the silver screen.

Representative government and democracy are not necessarily good or bad things. They're political concepts.

Then it's NuCanon.

There are only really six authors who crossed over from Trek to Wars. Alan Dean Foster, Vonda McIntyre, Barbara Hambly, A.C. Crispin, Greg Bear, and Christie Golden. Those last two didn't come about until the 2000s, and Alan Dean Foster basically only wrote the novelization of ANH and Splinter, with McIntyre and Hambly both writing like one book each. But yeah, those two wrote some weird shit.

The NuCanon Empire still has plenty of non-human discrimination, just as much as the Legends Empire did in fact. The only significant difference is that there's the occasional nonhuman (usually just a near-human) serving in the military, and that NuCanon actually acknowledges Mas Amedda's role as the second in command.

It's basically stated that there's no "official" rules and policies stating one has to be racist and humanocentric to rise in the ranks, but that the upper ranks are basically a "good ole' boys club" filled with racists and that if you want to advance, you basically have to adapt your mindset to theirs.

Non-humans served as Stormtroopers in EUCanon as well. It wasn't unheard of.

>the Rebellion definitely spinned that for all it was worth.

I don't think it takes too much spin when 'Blew up their own planet to demonstrate a weapon' was the start point.

They made sure to never mention Alderaan was aligned with the Rebellion and was supplying it with war materials and soldiers.

>their own planet
>seat of troublemaker #1 from the get go
literally pick only one

>Jedi aren't police though
Since when? They're peacekeepers with legal authority to enforce law and act as negotiators and ambassadors under the Republic. They're like cop lawyers.

Not only troublemaker #1 seat, but seat of the majority of the most organized Alliance group's leadership and power base as well.

The Rebels conveniently forgot to mention this though. It was of course just an unprovoked and heinous act of unwarranted military wrath on a very loyal and very Imperial Imperial planet with no weapons or soldiers that it wasn't sending offworld and no planetary defenses or shields those were obviously just visual artifacts and glitches in the Holorecording.

Alderaan was still a planet under the authority of the Empire. Just because its leadership doesn't approve and seeks for multiple (including non-violent) ways for the Empire to change does not mean that it deserved to be wiped from the map along with all of its citizens. At worst, the Empire should have arrested Bail and Leia and the others who were the closest involved.

Not committed genocide.

HERE WE GO AGAIN

They're warrior monks above all else.

>we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers
>*cut to scene of hordes of jedi charging into lines of battle droids and then blowing up robot ships alongside soldiers shooting lasers and tanks and artillery*

LIKE POETRY

>seeks to peacefully change the empire
>sends weapons, troops, and supplies to groups of people fighting and sabotaging and warring against the empire
>its noble family is one of the leaders of those groups of people

Ehhhhhhhhh....

>They made sure to never mention Alderaan was aligned with the Rebellion and was supplying it with war materials and soldiers.

Citation required? Considering the one mention of it's military status in the entire movie is 'They have no weapons' and Moff Tarkin himself asking if she'd rather change the target to a military target, implying that Alderan isn't.

The Jedi are literally the UN security forces of Star Wars.

The whole point of the war was to force the Jedi into a role that they aren't meant to be in, to wear them down and prepare them for the killing blow.

And while they are doing that, Bail was also fighting for change in the Senate, along with Mon Mothma and thousands of others.

And then the Senate is disbanded, and Alderaan is destroyed, literally days apart.

>They're warrior monks above all else.
[citation needed]
It also doesn't disqualify what I said. They kill Sith incidentally to their purpose. Protecting the Republic is their purpose.

except they don't molest kids

EpIV novelization expands on Alderaan quite a bit, and it doesn't contradict the movie or anytihng afterwards.

Basically Tarkin was bluffing and knew Leia was bullshitting him (which she actually is in the movie itself) and another thing after the novelization says Alderaan was an Imperial military target for a long time before the Death Star was even completed.

Take it for what you will.

Man, the new hammerheads are nasty fucks. Ran a game yesterday with 4 of them rocking external racks and task force organa, and those things can hit like trucks. even if the rest of my force crumbled to high powered ties, one hammerhead with a single activation killed off an arquitens that was worth 20 points more and another put an 80 point quasar to such a low range my nebulon could finish it off. I'm gonna run another game with them again, this time with more expensive upgrades, see how it goes.

The jedi WERE supposed to be peacekeepers. What they weren't supposed to be was generals.

>Representative government and democracy are not necessarily good or bad things. They're political concepts.

No but expecting people to not attempt illegal methods of changing government when the legal methods have been removed is foolish. Removing the senate only galvanised the rebellion.

[citation needed]

We do know that they kidnap and indoctrinate them, though.

Can we not have the Alderaan argument again please?

It never gets anywhere and is obnoxious cherrypicking central.

>Bail was also fighting for change in the Senate, along with Mon Mothma and thousands of others.

Mon Mothma and Bail were two of the main signatures of the Declaration of Rebellion over two years before the Senate was disbanded. Speaking in EUCanon here, of course.

Even the Declaration itself didn't request change or bargaining with Palpatine. It demanded he step down and stated openly the Rebellion was coming to depose and "deal with" him. It was a declaration of war.

Mothma, Bail, and many of the other Republic senators jumped ship long before disbanding the Senate was an inkling in Palpy's mind.

Can you provide a quote there? I can't find a single line about it on Wookipedia in the canon section.

If the empire played a proper game of Empire at War and just hopped around in the death star blowing up everything that they didn't have a 100% hold on with a full support fleet then it would've been gg from day 1.

>illegal methods of changing government
>Palpatine received overwhelming support from the Senate, who passed his changes lawfully, and a huge deal of support from the galactic society as a whole

You can only pick one.

Jake w/ PtL, VI, autos, and your choice of prockets or cruise

Greens w/ chardaan and your choice of snap, juke, crack, and adapt

He based his change of the government on pure deception, for one. And then rather than actually deal with the corruption problems, he made them worse.

I was talking about the rebellion being the illegal method, as the legal method (Changing the laws with the senate) was taken away.

>in the canon section

It's EUCanon. EUCanon is what's being discussed here.

If you're looking on Wookiepedia in particular, here's its excerpt.

"The defense systems on Alderaan, despite the Senator's protestations to the contrary, were as strong as any in the Empire. I should conclude that our demonstration was as impressive as it was thorough." - Darth Vader to Tarkin

>>Palpatine received overwhelming support from the Senate, who passed his changes lawfully, and a huge deal of support from the galactic society as a whole
You left out the part where he was running both sides of a galactic civil war as part of his keikaku to get himself installed as Emperor. The actual transition may have been legal, but it was illegal as fuck getting the galaxy to a state where it could happen that way.

I don't think it's a legal change if you trick the country into a war you personally started by being the leader of the enemy forces and then use a hidden killswitch to murder the parts of your own nation that might reveal a dark secret about you.

That tends to get called tampering with the democratic process.

Was it really based on pure deception? Was the Republic not extremely corrupt and falling apart even before he came along? Did the Jedi not attempt to depose and kill him even though he was the legal authority over them?

Yeah, he moved the Clone Wars into motion and set himself into power, sure. However, to say everything he did was based on lies is simply not true.

And the corruption of the Republic in most areas was no different or marginally lessened once the Empire came in, and in some areas it was greatly diminished.

The Senate still existed though and it still had at least some marginal influence. Changes could be enacted from time to time.

Once again, it's an important thing that the Rebellion was declared years before the Senate was disbanded.

>Did the Jedi not attempt to depose and kill him even though he was the legal authority over them?

You don't get to be immune to the laws by being the head of a country. They were coming to arrest him for all those crimes he committed in the process.

>The Senate still existed though and it still had at least some marginal influence. Changes could be enacted from time to time.

This quote says otherwise:

>"The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."

>Did the Jedi not attempt to depose and kill him even though he was the legal authority over them?

If you want to be a faggot about it, they were ALSO moving to arrest the overall leader of the Separatist army.
So i mean, they were 100% doing their jobs.