Why did he join Chaos? I understand not being loyalist but going Chaos seem just as counter productive to his goals

Did they ever give an explanation for his massive heel turn in personality after he joined the great crusade Satan?

Mortarion is the worst Primarch. People always say its Lorgar or Russ but they at least got what they wished.
Mortarion on the otherhand ended up on the team that stood for everything that he hated, whilst the Emperor was trying to create an empire that stood against the warp, witches and sorcery. And why did he do this? Because he's an insecure, paranoid failure.

He couldn't even conquer his home planet.

Everyone knows the bitch primarchs couldn't rule their planets filled with inferior men.

I wouldn't really call it a turn, he was always kind of an ass, and paranoid as fuck, but Horus was kind of a dick to him as well - making him swear oaths upon oaths.

And a big part of why Pert joined the rebellion was because he flipped out and crushed his homeworld when it rebelled, so as starting positions go that's not great.

And then there's Phall, where his fleet took on a numerically inferior force of Fists and were losing before the Fists made a withdrawal - and part of this losing battle included boarders reaching his sanctum, which made him even more paranoid (and is why he built pic related instead of having marines guard him)

I really hated that all primarchs either joined chaos or stayed loyal. There should have been a couple who just went full renegade and started their own empires, but nothing to do with chaos. Would have made for a much more interesting dynamic. Morty, Pert and Khan as renegades could have worked

I could see a lot of people in that setting deciding that choosing between the Imperium and chaos is like having to choose between ebola and terminal cancer. Also the universe as a whole is pretty gigantic, and chaos seems to be infecting only the Milky Way if I'm not mistaken. Why doesn't anyone get the bright idea to build a colony ship and split for where things might be EVEN WORSE MUWAHAHAHAHA

Angron had serious mental issues due to the butcher nails and having his father "save" him but allow his friends to die.

Curze tried to be good, but ended up being mentally disturbed, he hated his own legion for being made of mostly criminals, murderers and rapists, he realised too late what he was

Perty was a bit of a dick to start with and didn't get to do what he considered he was best at, he was on the whole somewhat petty

There was some old lore about ships trying to leave the galaxy, but they end up never being heard from again. Plus you cant warp travel outside the galaxy, so it would just be hundreds of thousands of years of traversing the void

(Plus nids would get you)

Remember also that in the original canon (now butchered by the HH), Pertuabo was suffering under tremendous PTSD because Horus purposefully used him as a work horse, sending him to every high lethality shit-hole he could while heaping easy jobs and praise onto Dorn just to grind Pertuabo down into nothing

Because the Warp is so still, you can't travel along it's currents, IE there is no FTL beyond the galaxy, and FTL beyond the radius of the Astronomicon is already harrowing as hell

The chaos is made by the minds of uncountable people, if people leave the galaxy, it would be an alternate form of people perma dying, chaos wouldn't let it happen

Chaos exists in other galaxies or will follow you wherever you go because Chaos knows no limit.

picture related.

The warp seems to be a universal thing, however chaos gods only seem to emerge where there is life, theres lots of conflicting lore on it, but my takeaway is that galaxies have their own chaos deities and the void between is empty

Better question: would any of the other primachs break as he did? If so, which?

No, there isn't. It's just your headcanon conflicting with the lore. The Chaos Gods are the same across different realities, galaxies, and universes

If you knew the fluff, you would know that Chaos can destroy all life and still exist. They do not require life. Life is their enemy and they are (except Nurgle) are the enemy of all that lives.

The only reason Mortarion broke is he already felt hollow, existential despair, as the Emperor had robbed him of what he thought was his purpose early on

Nah, Chaos is weak shit and its 'gods' are just ripples of psychic energy. No life = no psyches = no chaos.

Not the person you were responding to, but I kind of want to strangle whichever person decided this be the case, as it's almost insultingly uninteresting and generic, and is much of why I'm almost entirely uninterested in chaos nonsense this day and age.

You'd be right if GeeDubs didn't decide to do their macroverse bullshit and innately make their setting more generic and cookie-cutter.

Then again, the only people who are still into modern 40k lore are mindless fanboys.

Absolutely false. The fluff says that even if all life is extinguished the Chaos Gods will stay around eternal.

The founders of the setting because that lore was there when Chaos was first introduced. Open your 3th ED rulebook.

>The founders of the setting because that lore was there when Chaos was first introduced.
My distate and desire to strangle them are unchanged, next.

I think Horus still kinda did that - I mean Pert was fighting a massive Hrud incursion when he got the news about Olympia, that's hardly light work.

Dorn earned his praise by being good though, no-one was heaping praise on him just to shit on Perturabo... that would meant that they cared enough about Pert to antagonise him

>The founders of the setting
Lol, as if that means anything. 40k's lore-writers have been idiotic since the beginning, it's still a bland direction to take with your antagonists. Maybe stop being so loyal to a brand that only exists to suck currency out of you with a pretty setting ad advertisement.

Justify this, /teegee/

>bland

It's like saying it's bland to have Great Cosmic horrors always have their way while the mortals are helpless, in Lovercraft material.

And I will give my bucks to whoever I wish. I am not that petty to be driven off by some lore I don't like in a 30+ years old setting.

But Lovecraft is bland and cosmic horror is bad.

>It's like saying it's bland to have Great Cosmic horrors always have their way while the mortals are helpless, in Lovercraft material.
Lovecrfat wasn't that great a writer, first of all. All his writing was driven by his absolutely asinine degree of being scared by almost anything, and if you read into his stories you'll quickly find they're just a way to vent his political fears (innsmouth = interracial romance) while also writing flowery.

But ignoring that, the horror of Lovecraft's setting wasn't that the gods were evil and hated all life, no, the horror was that we, and life in general, were so insignificant they didn't care about us whatsoever. The closest thing to an 'evil' lovecraft deity was Nyarlathotep. Everything else was just apathetic, even Cthulhu. The Dunwich Horror shows this in particular, as Yog-Sothoth literally was so beyond our scope and so uncaring of our existence that it lead to him being exploited by a human to bring her demonic children.

Along that line, humans were the core of the evil in Call of Cthulhu, too, the cult wanted to summon him early, and when he rose he was happy to go back to sleeping for a good long while after getting hit with a single steamboat, showing that the true DESIRE to end the world fell on the humans worshipping him, while it was just how he works, as opposed to an active lust in destroying humanity.

The Cabal wanted mankind to be destroyed by Horus because he would take Chaos with it. The lore is contradictory on the matter because Chaos is alternatively being wanked and shit on and there's no damn solid answers because Black Library can't be asked to have coherent ideas and every edition tweaks it a bit anyways. All according to plan to loose then or some shit. Who cares, we still buy the plastic crack.

If fantasy wasn't wrecked there'd be an example you could point to and show that Chaos gods are existent and coherent between universes but there's nothing left and Slannesh was replaced by a rat.

It's probably safe to say Chaos can follow life from our galaxy and could GO anywhere with souls and life but "muh omnipotence and omniscience" is lacking more with every book they put out. They can't get rid of Dennis "Draigo" the menace. They're limited.

>generic
>bland

How?

This, chaos is dull because its got so many "chaos will always win no matter what" scenarios or "if khorne rasies his sword the whole universe implodes" things

Its kinda boring and bullshit

Havign your villains just be all-powerful gods who win no matter what while also making them eeeevil and obsessed with destroying life is objectively boring, even Tolkien had more nuance than that.

This was the better scenario, the chaos gods want eternal war and want to rip the galaxy apart, then this shit happenedChaos wants to just destroy all reality and can with ease so GG other factions

>The Cabal wanted mankind to be destroyed by Horus because he would take Chaos with it.

So the Cabal thought, but they're clearly shown to be capable of error.

>there's nothing left and Slannesh was replaced by a rat.

There's the Bloodbowl universe. And Slaanesh is still present in Age of Sigmar.

>It's probably safe to say Chaos can follow life from our galaxy and could GO anywhere with souls and life

They already have presence across the universe. Tzeentch has the power to hear all the hopes and dreams of beings across the universe for example.

>Tzeentch has the power to hear all the hopes and dreams of beings across the universe for example.
And I'm to find this interesting, somehow?

>Havign your villains just be all-powerful gods who win no matter what while also making them eeeevil and obsessed with destroying life is objectively boring

How?

>It's probably safe to say Chaos can follow life from our galaxy and could GO anywhere with souls and life

Tolkien was essentially the opposite, evil was limited while good was boundless.
Chaos represents man's own evil and sin eventually catching up with him and destroying him.

IIRC, he really didn't have a choice. Typhus tricked him and he was forced to pledge his soul to nurgle to save his legion and himself

You're to find that this proves you wrong about them being limited to the milky way by the species there.

>How?
It just takes me out of the world and leaves it hard to get invested, a group that is guaranteed to win and there's no defense against removes tension from a universe and leads me to just stop caring about anything within it.

Not that guy, should have clarified. I'm well aware of the greater scope of Chaos within the lore, I just don't find it fun.

Are you not invested in the real universe because of heat death?

>How?
0 tension, 0 chance for good guys to win, its literally like a story about all of humanity vs 1 ant, your only interest is how long the ant can survive before it gets stepped on, it gets pretty dull

>he Cabal wanted mankind to be destroyed by Horus because he would take Chaos with it.

As Eldrad pointed out, the Cabal plan was bullshit and wouldn't have worked.

>The lore is contradictory on the matter because Chaos is alternatively being wanked and shit on and there's no damn solid answers because Black Library can't be asked to have coherent ideas and every edition tweaks it a bit anyways. All according to plan to loose then or some shit. Who cares, we still buy the plastic crack.

You go with the recent sources that for last decade all agreed on what Chaos is now.

>If fantasy wasn't wrecked there'd be an example you could point to and show that Chaos gods are existent and coherent between universes but there's nothing left and Slannesh was replaced by a rat.

AoS is the continuation of WHFB. And recently daemons in AoS have disappeared in mass (especially those of Nurgle) and the flavor text says that these daemons have went to wage war in another plane of reality. Huge implication that this war is the Rift War in 40K.

>It's probably safe to say Chaos can follow life from our galaxy and could GO anywhere with souls and life but "muh omnipotence and omniscience" is lacking more with every book they put out. They can't get rid of Dennis "Draigo" the menace. They're limited.

No, they are not limited. And it's the opposite. We have seen daemons who exist at the end of time.

As for Draigo, the a space marine "Silver Knight" confronted Slaanesh and was drowned by xir innocence.

Another giant Silver Knight who says that he became an legend in the Realm of Chaos was spotted in the WHFB End Times. He spoke with a funny accent and fire blasted from his forearm. The Knights heroics and self sacrifice ended with him being defeated twice by an army of Nurgle. Though, he is immortal somehow, the daemons left him battered, chained up, and impaled on rusted spear.

One affects my life, one is a poorly thought out world that exists to sell miniatures. Big difference, there.

The Chaos Gods are totally insane and prone to infighting unless they have a uniting figure and even then they will backstab each other. So no. For all their power, the Chaos Gods cannot defeat their own natures which makes then interesting villains.

Not really, I've hardly found any of their romps or rivalries interesting. I find more interest in even the rather banal tales of the rivalries between greek gods, than that of the Chaos Gods.

>BUT I WANT THE HEROES TO WIN REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

And you're on team "Chaos is bland and generic!"? Sad!

Why should the grimdark universe be less grimdark than reality?

>Why should the grimdark universe be less grimdark than reality?
It can be as grimdark as it likes, doesn't change that it's not interesting, mate.

In general, its grimdark is also a rather annoying form of Melodrama. You know a setting's darkness is kind of subpar and ridiculous when a game series with consistent UFO endings provokes a greater feeling of emptiness and meaninglessness than an entire universe where a constant theme is that evil will win in the end, with hundreds of books under its belt.

>Why should the grimdark universe be less grimdark than reality?
It doesn't have to be, its brand of "darkness" is just almost hilariously overdramatic and silly. You guys seriously take this shit seriously? I shudder to think of what your standards of fiction are. This crap reads like some game's excuse plot... oh, wait, it is.

>>BUT I WANT THE HEROES TO WIN REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>And you're on team "Chaos is bland and generic!"? Sad!

Umm what? I never said that? I said I wanted tension, I want it to be tough on the heroes and a toss up between who could win? I don't want the imperium shit stomping everyone, I just want them to have a chance

>Why should the grimdark universe be less grimdark than reality?
Are you legitimately insinuating you get existential dread from fucking Warhammer?

You don't like grimdark and that's okay. Why post in 40k threads though?

> I just want them to have a chance

That's every generic setting since the beginning of time.

No, but then I don't get existential dread at all. Do you, you big twelve year old?

Maybe Morty will be abandoned by nurgle and he gets purified somehow.

The Imperium shouldn't have a chance since that would justify all the horrible shit they have done. It gives a bad message that man is above the consequences of his actions, above sin.

Lets face it. A race responsible for the creation of (picture related) doesn't deserve to win.

I wonder Carnac, was it a christian up-bringing or just an abusive father?

Oh fuck off with "omg so deep" bullshit.

>some guy killed some other guy
>WE DESERVE TO DIE

The truth can be harsh.

>That's every generic setting since the beginning of time.
Not really. Generic settings usually have the heroic force guaranteed to win, and they usually suck, lacking tension. Problem is, a story with a guaranteed bad ending also lacks tension - the question of "what will happen?" If you already know the inevitability of how it will end, it takes a lot from the experience for some. I'm one of these people, though generally I don't come to 40k for the long-term or the overarching story, I just find the setting often neat.

>You don't like grimdark and that's okay. Why post in 40k threads though?
Not him, but I usually post in warhammer threads because the setting does have a few strong concepts, and usually they're strong enough not to be tied down by the somewhat uninspired driving force of the setting. The Primarchs are occasionally written well in such a way that they can have legitimate depth despite the overall lack of deep vision in their setting, and that's why I just now came to this thread before seeing it became another setting loyalist versus naysayer argument. Do either of you guys have anything to actually do with your time? I'm just here because I'm waiting on a phonecall.

(Cont.)

>No, but then I don't get existential dread at all. Do you, you big twelve year old?
Classy insult, there, evidently it might hold salt though considering the person you replied to has deigned not to answer it. I don't experience existential dread but 's point is rather poignant, there's very little in the actual setting you're praising that truly evokes the feel of hopelessness and the emptiness of the world the characters find themselves in. The setting pretty much runs on melodrama and that's kind of its main selling point, and that's not a bad thing at all, the straight-played cheesiness of the universe adds a lot to its charm, even if it leads it to be never be seriously considered by actual literary critics or analysts. There's nothing wrong with 40k, it just has basically zero actual substance to it - but for what its purpose is, to sell miniatures, it's easily the best out there.

This.

For all the "horror" and "darkness" of 40k, fucking VtM is more horrific

The problem is that the daemon didn't just feed on just that one murder. That was just the start. The daemon birth set humanity of its dark path. The Emperor and the Cabal have tried their hardest to steer humanity away from that path but it refused. Humanity would not change. Humanity would not let go of their base desires and hatred.

And so...Chaos is what they deserve. As it was pointed to Girlyman, this is a cycle that kept repeating for millions of years. Countless races have been consumed by Chaos. Humanity is one small chapter in the great war against Chaos.

Again, you miss the point.

Some guy killing some other guy wasn't meant for the first murder alone, but in general, for all violence and war in our history.

>Why did he join Chaos?
he didn't join chaos, he joined Horus

>Its an user attempts a deep read on a BL novel episode
Cringe.

>Not really. Generic settings usually have the heroic force guaranteed to win

Not at all. Heroic forces are almost always presented as on the back foot because people love the underdog wins.

>Problem is, a story with a guaranteed bad ending also lacks tension

Only if you know every step. DO you find your real life lacking in tension because you're inevitably going do die someday?

>The Primarchs are occasionally written well in such a way that they can have legitimate depth

Hahahahahaha. The Primarchs are deep now.

What point are you trying to make with this whole speel?

It's not a deep read though, it's surface level but somehow retards still miss it.

We're going full Veeky Forums pseudo intellectual critic in here and presenting opinion as objective observation I see. That's sad, I expected a bit more from teej than that. I expect that sort of smug self satisfied teenage cynicism from Veeky Forums but to find to poured so thickly in a 40K thread of all places...did you people get lost and wander in here by accident?

Whose the greater faggot, the faggot, or the faggot that all the faggots look at and say "wow you're a smug ass faggot", faggot?

Spoilers it's you, you smug faggot.

So you are saying that humanity mustn't be punished for a near eternity of bloodshed and woe? The First Murder is what inspired all the murders ever after. Look at the text. Drach'nyen touched the mind of every human being that ever lived across space and time, and the bastards of a race embraced its call.

At least I managed to bring your post back down to earth from that cloud of your own farts you were floating on, if only for a moment. But please, continue your pulitzer prize winning deconstruction of the setting featuring Iron Hands the Iron Hands and cockney monsters that believe things into existence. Stun me with your expert opinions.

>So you are saying that humanity mustn't be punished for a near eternity of bloodshed and woe
Pretty much, ye.

I don't call you a cocksucker cause your mom was one, do I?

>Game has funny elements and comedic relief
>It can never be deep and thought provoking

That post made ADB sad.

>MY TWENTY FIRST CENTURY WESTERN LIBERAL VALUES DON'T ALIGN WITH THIS, THEREFORE THE SETTING IS DUMB

My mom being a cocksucker would have consequences on my life and reputation.

Being from a race that embraced murder and hate, has dire consequence in the 40K universe. You seem to want man to be removed from the consequences of his action for some unknown reasons. That's not how things work in RL or 40K. In 40K, the Warp watches all and it responds to what it sees.

Uh huh. Now if we can manage to discuss those aspects rather than suck our own dicks going on some meta discussion about the blandness and artistic merit of the setting we'll be out of the weeds here!

It could be, but then you realize hacks like ADB are writing it

>ADB
I was wondering where all the chaos shilling in this thread spawned from. Guess that answers that.

>You seem to want man to be removed from the consequences of his action for some unknown reasons
Because I'm not a faux nihilist and I don't think the son should pay for the sins of the father.

But please, continue flagellating yourself for being human. If you do it hard enough maybe you'll become a daemon undivided like your idol.

Probably not the best place to ask, but are the Ahriman books any good? Thinking of picking up the omnibus.

If you were a dedicated 40kid, you would, because you would have the same masturbatory obsession over power levels that shonen anime otakus have.

I am flagellating 40K humanity, not RL humanity doe. There is no Chaos in RL as for as we know.

Yes, they are good. Provided that you are into the Thousand Sons, PLOT TWISTS, and Chaos.

They're OK, hope you like dimensions of just as keikaku though

>I don't think the son should pay for the sins of the father.

Very noble of you, but often the son does. And he does in the 40k universe.
Why does a setting become bad because part of it doesn't meet your own moral standards?

I never said WH40K wasn't worthy of discussion, it absolutely is, just not this high horse artfagging and dismissive cynicism that much of this thread has devolved into.

Because Carnac over here is arguing humanity deserved it because they commit murder :((((((.

Don't get it twisted.

I don't want to sound like /pol/ but I think some people here have an aversion to the morality of Chaos because they have some liberal real life moral code which doesn't apply in 40K. They don't understand that the 40K universe is a grimdark universe with its own form of justice that our modern day minds cannot comprehend. It's not designed to be fair for the inhabitants of the universe but it does achieve its goal.

>There is no such thing as innocence. Only degrees of guilt.

>says people have an aversion to the morality of Chaos
>brings up an Imperial quote

Anyway there isn't anything about 40k's justice that our minds can't understand, it's just draconic and authoritarian

>Hates Tyrants, Psykers, Mutants and Aliens
>Joins the sides full of all of them
>Is Nurgle's goddamn hood ornament
>Spent thousands of years searching for his dead xeno father to torture out of some huge petty daddy issues

I respect even goddamn Lorgar more. He at least is now living it large in the worship of Chaos. In fact every traitor Primarch basically got what they wanted. Perty builds things infinetely, Magnus is big daddy sorcerer and slaps some wolves once in a while, Angron has his eternal war against daddy, Fulgrim is ass deep in Slaneesh and Kurze killed himself.

Every single one I could say got what they wanted except for Morty.

You should know by now that Carnac is a quasi-roleplayer.
.