So D&D cops a lot of criticism, but is there a lightweight trad fantasy alternative that isn't also deeply flawed?

I thought people stopped talking about it after someone finally uploaded it and we saw just how bad it was

It wasn't that it was awful. If it were really awful we'd still be talking about it. What made it good bait at the time was our lack of knowledge about it, and constantly being teased about it. We'd seen bits and pieces of it that seemed to make it out to be something really, really terrible, and thus something interesting, something to string us along, however when the time came, it turned out that those bits and pieces were really all was notable about it. The rest was just a Bland OSR Retroclones with a couple of weird facets. It wasn't good enough to play, and it wasn't bad enough to be interesting.

Thus, attempting to use MYFAROG as bait really doesn't work, because the rage was merely from us getting strung along, not from the system itself.

.5/10, Take up another hobby.

I would genuinely like to hear what people who think Dungeon World is cancer think is a good system

>quantum bears

This poster here.

The problem with Dungeon World isn't that it's bad in the conventional rules sense. PBTA games are hit and miss, but the system is, well, solid when done right.

Dungeon World, however, shoves too many Sacred Cows of OSR gaming into the mix, which causes major issues with the freeform, non-linear, improv storytelling that PBTA is meant for.

As for good games that actually do what D&D is meant for, I've already listed a few, but I do favor the FFG Narrative Dice System, BRP systems, and I'm loving the look and feel of Ryuutama so far... going to be running a nice comfy campaign for a new group soon.

Harnmaster, CoC, Dark Heresy

Runequest 3rd

Lamentations of the flame princess is a good quality system once you get past all the edge.

barbarian of lemuria works as well.

Warhammer Fantasy
If it's too dark for your tastes, just ditch the setting, it works perfectly fine as just a generic usage fantasy system.

Das Schwarze Auge

>Dungeon World, however, shoves too many Sacred Cows of OSR gaming into the mix, which causes major issues with the freeform, non-linear, improv storytelling that PBTA is meant for.
Could you please elaborate?

>DSA
>lightweight

No way. The Dark Eye has a cool setting, but that game was designed for Germans, by Germans. Its hard to find systems crunchier.

as a German I find it very lightweight.

you can do away with the large stat numbers, only need a bonus # to add to rolls, same can be done with HP.
I personally dont mind all that "throwback" stuff, it helps a lot with new players that are transitioning from D&D to the system

A good alternative is Indie Hack, its like Dungeon World but on crack in that almost ALL narrative control is in the players hands, not the GMs.

HOW?
(Stats in DSA referred to in German, sorry non-Germans)

D&D Player wants to flirt with a guard to not get inspected on the way into a town
>Make a Persuasion Check
>Roll 1d20+Charisma, potentially +Proficiency against a DC set by the GM

DSA Player attempts the same task
>Roll 1d20 against your MU
>Roll 1d20 against your CH
>Roll 1d20 against your CH
>DM establishes modifiers to your roll
>Modifiers RAW include; Any Positive or Negative Quirks on your character sheet, Positive or Negative Quirks for the NPC, NPC's attraction to your gender, race, and culture, NPC's religious attitudes (such as Rahja or Travia worship), and your status conditions (Fear, Paralysis, Confusion, and Pain are all relevant)
>DM establishes any narratively relevant modifiers (you're known for having done this trick in this town before, whatever)
>Use points in skill to attempt the highest QS
>Establish QS
>NPC rolls Willpower, which is another 3d20 roll with relevant modifiers, and the process starts over again.

Its no wonder there's the meme about the German man going home after a long day of work to play Farming Simulator 2017.

>DSA Player attempts the same task
>>Roll 1d20 against your MU
>>Roll 1d20 against your CH
>>Roll 1d20 against your CH
>>DM establishes modifiers to your roll
>>Modifiers RAW include; Any Positive or Negative Quirks on your character sheet, Positive or Negative Quirks for the NPC, NPC's attraction to your gender, race, and culture, NPC's religious attitudes (such as Rahja or Travia worship), and your status conditions (Fear, Paralysis, Confusion, and Pain are all relevant)
>>DM establishes any narratively relevant modifiers (you're known for having done this trick in this town before, whatever)
>>Use points in skill to attempt the highest QS
>>Establish QS
>>NPC rolls Willpower, which is another 3d20 roll with relevant modifiers, and the process starts over again.

Because this is not a DSA Player will encounter this task all he does is roll 3 D20 and tells the Meister how much room he has left without failing.
The Meister now tells you if you succeeded the roll and how good it (He will not tell the QS he will describe the affection of the entranced guard to the flirtee) was or if you failed the task.

Aaaaand this is why DSA isn't lightweight.

Everyone who plays it house-rules all the gibberish away because no one wants to deal with it.

Everything I wrote is how the RULEBOOK establishes play.

What you wrote is what everyone does in practice because no one wants to take 5 minutes on one skill check.

??
This is not a house rule. The Meister does all the things with the modifiers and rolls for NPC.
The player never gets to see anything of it.
So it is fairly lightweight for the player not the Meister.

also it doesn't take 5 minutes it barely takes 3 seconds.

Trad fantasy options worth a damn:
OD&D/Basic D&D/Advanced D&D/Retroclones.
Variant retro-D&D's like Dungeon Crawl Classics RPG, Basic Fantasy etc.
Runequest 1E/2E.
Basic Roleplaying and it's variations. (Stormbringer etc)

Stop being racist.

>So it is fairly lightweight for the player, not the GM

Congrats, the system is crunchy and taxing on the *one* person who is in charge of keeping track of all the crunch and rules.

Its not lightweight, especially not compared to D&D, ESPECIALLY not compared to 5e.

I will give you an example
You have a character with the following Character points
MU 14
CH 14
Betören & Bekehren 0
Now you want to use Betören & Bekehren
You roll 1xMU 2xCH
Since the Character is not used to do this act and the NPC is especially beautiful he gets a -1 malus on his rolls
Effectively his MU and CH is subtracted by 1
now he rolls 7 12 13 he succeeded the task with a QS of 1 since his Betören & Bekehren is 0

also a double 1 on any roll is an automatic success and a double 20 on any roll is an automatic fail

>DSA is a German system.
>It was published in Germany by German people.
>Therefore it was made by Germans
>They had to kickstarter the English edition
>Therefore, it was initially made for Germans, by Germans.

Nice bait. Here's a (you).

>He succeeded the task with QS 1

No, the GM has to roll the NPC's Willenskraft to oppose the roll. You don't get to make skill checks uncontested in social conflicts.

>the system is crunchy and taxing on the *one* person who is in charge of keeping track of all the crunch and rules.
Then don't be the Meister.

*Someone* has to GM. And if you can't sell a system on being lightweight to a group who has to run it themselves (so SOMEONE in the group has to sift through all the crunch), why recommend it at all?

Did you just call D&D lightweight?

>No, the GM has to roll the NPC's Willenskraft to oppose the roll.
It is called a Vergleichsprobe.
The roll is succeeded by the Character that means that all the people in the tavern see a cool guy trying to flirt with a girl in a cool manner. To check if the girl is really besmirched needs a similar check from the girl and in the end you compare the QS from the girl and the guy and then whose is higher is the one with the upperhand.
And you cannot tell me that this takes more than 4 seconds

Also a Vergleichsprobe is not the normal Probe for instance climbing just needs you toll roll 3 d20 against the mod and then you succeed

and if you for instance want to build a wall over several hours to hold the invading orks at bay who will arrive tomorrow (12 hours) you do a sammelprobe where you need to reach a QS of 10 to succeed a QS 6 is a partial success the Meister tells you how many Proben you are allowed to roll in what time span.
For this example he say you are allowed to do a Probe for every 6 hours on the talents Holzbearbeitung or Steinbearbeitung

The players Dirk and Stefan want to help too
and thus they roll 3x3d20 every 6 hours
Shortly before the Orks arrive the reach a QS of 6 and thus have a partial defensive structure but since they worked the whole day and night they have now the quirk tired.

such things cannot happen in D&D since it is a Dungeon Crawler and not a Roleplaying Game

Everything you're mentioning is why DSA IS NOT LIGHTWEIGHT. You have crunch and rules to support EVERY different kind of action, and they all work DIFFERENTLY.

THAT is the only point I'm trying to get through to you. It is a WONDERFUL system if you want lots of details and rules for specific actions that are either not present in D&D or aren't as efficient. It is, however, VERY COMPLEX by having all those rules, making it NOT a LIGHTWEIGHT, RULES-LIGHT system.

>they all work DIFFERENTLY.
they all work the same
in all Proben you need to find out what the QS and then either say it or compare to a QS of another character or add them together.

It is not hard at all.

I want to add the only thing that could be considered hard is the creation of a character expect that to last the whole night.

hard =/= complex, deutschanon

Ok Fritz, put on your glasses, go get your Wörterbuch.

COMPARED TO D&D

>So D&D cops a lot of criticism, but is there a lightweight trad fantasy alternative that isn't also deeply flawed?

He only said that D&D cops a lot of critism in now way did he imply that his desired roleplaying game needs to be compared to D&D.

For me lightweight means it is very easy to play without a lot of breaks to get the rulebooks out and read how to handle a situation.

And DSA does that.

Is this the new RAGEANON?

I have heard Dungeon World and FATE before, you might want to give them a read and see if it appeals to you.

>So D&D cops a lot of criticism, but is there a lightweight trad fantasy alternative
>is there an alternative to D&D
?

>For me lightweight means it is very easy to play without a lot of breaks to get the rulebooks out and read how to handle a situation.
So if you know a game intimately because you've played a lot/have a great memory/are an autist, that makes it lightweight?

That might be the most subjective way to determine complexity I've ever heard.

For this exact reason.

no if you play with new players and you have to stop every 20 minutes to reread a rule that makes it not lightweight. Or players start to argue about the rules instead of playing the game.

>Mutants and Masterminds can be fluffed as fantsy, which is the best option.
This. They've even got a supplement for emulating the genre. Give Warriors and Warlocks a try, you won't be disappointed.

I didn't mention any new players, but let's assume everybody at the table is an expert of whatever you're playing (let's say GURPS). This, according to your logic, makes the game (GURPS) lightweight.
As soon as a new player comes it, suddenly GURPS is not lightweight anymore.
Then he learns, and GURPS becomes lightweight again.

>Or players start to argue about the rules
Oh, so this means that a rules-lawyer at the table transforms the system you're using from (possibly) lightweight to crunchy?

I'm getting baited, aren't I?