/5eg/ - Fifth Edition General

Not sure it's relevant in this situation. Level 5 fighter would only have 4 dice, and three attacks would basically expend his pool. If that's the way we're gonna do this he might as well use action surge too

i think it's only fair, seeing as how the Sorlock is spending resources.

The sorcerer has 6 level 1 spell slots and 2 level 2 spell slots.
Hex is a bonus action, quickening is a bonus action and reapplying hex is a bonus action. It's easier to, instead of suggesting applying hex, just convert it all into points.
That gives you 13 sorcery points + 2 every short rest. Enough for 6 turns of quickening.

So, you get 6 turns of 2d10+8 + 2d10+8 for 38 damage average.
The fighter puts out 3d6+39 without resources at -4 to hit, 49.5.

Now, the disparity in damage is heavily dependent on target AC which may force the fighter to stop using +10 damage, but...

In an adventuring day, you may be expected to have perhaps 20 rounds of combat. With two short rests a day, the sorcerer is only making 8 rounds of quickened blasts, and that's assuming they have enough bonus actions to convert the spell points as they use them considering they can only fire ONE quickened blast at level 5 before they have to start using bonus actions to make more sorcery points.

And then the fighter has resources too. Action surge every short rest and four superiority dice every short rest. That's three rounds of two extra attacks (average 33 at -4 to hit each) for the fighter and 12 rounds where they can add.. They start with d6s, don't they? Or was it d8s? To their damage if they do it once per turn.

It all depends on adventuring day length and target AC, really. If you assume sorcerers have infinite bonus actions and limitless resources, then maybe.

A fighter with GWM/SS spends his dice only when he misses by a small margin, using Precision Attack to practically guarantee a hit. This is a huge damage boost.

Well regardless Sorlock only gets better as time goes on.
At level 11, Sharpshooter Fighter attacks 4 times dealing 18.5 damage (3.5+5+10) for a total of 74.

Sorlock fires 6 bolts dealing 14 damage (5.5 + 5 + 3.5hex) for a total of 84.

Fighter has 5 superiority dice at that level, and even if he cheated and got to use 1 die for free every turn, he still wouldn't do as much damage.

Oh, and also the sorcerer is more prone to getting disadvantage considering they can't fire within 5ft of an enemy, whereas a fighter can walk right up to a prone enemy and get advantage if they want. But then it gets more confusing with 'well maybe the sorlock should get devil's sight and use darkness before combat' and things get even harder and harder to model.

Old DM of mine before I moved made a homebrew conversion of the Sha'ir as a Bardic College. Good Shit. If I can find it I'll share it, but don't get your hopes up. Inb4 homebrew is all shit anyway.

He would. Put this on a spreadsheet with to hit and enemy AC, consider Precision Attack is reliably turning a near miss into a hit, add action surge 2-3 times a day. I guarantee Fighter comes up on top.

A sorcerer can have WAY more sorcerery points than fighter has superiority dice. It's not a fair comparison in any way.

>making extra sorcerery points during combat
Never go full retard user

Trove is down.

>Trying to outdamage a fighter
>End of the first round of combat
>Oh no can we stop the combat for a bit? I need to convert slots to make more sorcery points again

Superiority dice recharges on a short rest so it's essentially 3x the value, while the sorlock only gets 2 lv1 slots from the warlock.
And when the sorcery points end, the fighter is still dealing absurd damage while the sorlock's dps is cut by half.

it doesn't really matter how many they get, at the end of the day, if both have "enough" for the combat, fighter pulls ahead.

>>Villain
Vecna. For flipping the table on the railroading Sanitized for your protection Ed Greenwood blowing shitshow that 2nd Edition became

>>Region
Zilargo. The only time Gnomes weren't made retarded comic relief

>>Kingdom
Rokugen. It made a terrible version of L5R but was the best version of Oriental Adventures. Sorry Greyhawk

>>Location
The entire plane of Acheron. A plane of endless war and every kind of weapon available. Its like a less Viking more Death Metal Valhalla

>>Spell
Otilukes resilient sphere. Save or suck if you need it or personal sphere of force. Its been good to me across multiple editions

>>Magical item
Wand of Wonder. I've always loved these things especially when I got ahold of the Encyclopedia Magica and was able to use all the variant tables ever printed

>tfw have more character concepts than campaigns to play
Stupid overactive brain.

I feel your pain.

Give it time. After nearly three years of play at three tables, I've managed to get through my priority character concepts. Now I'm down to the less interesting character concepts to work with, and it doesn't feel that pressing any more.

>Sha'ir
>Bard
But why?

Why are Half-Orc Champions the coolest characters?

I want to play in a good game but everyone in my circle that has tried their hand at DM'ing has proven to be god awful at it.

I know this feeling.
currently in a campaign and already craving to play a fuckton of other settings, as well as just host my own.

Because your standards are very low

Nice doubles. Sorcerer cucked again.
I never even paid attention to that part of the rules. So a Sorlock 5 can only have 3 sorcery points at a time and has to quicken round one, convert slots round 2. Thank god.
I was almost making that spreadsheet to show that SS fighter would still outdamage sorlock.

Add some levels of Bear Totem and you got quite the statement there, friendo.

(Half-)Elf Barbarian 2/Champion 15 with Elven Accuracy feat has almost 40% crit chance. Sucks to be ya, Half-Nigger.

I don't know where you're getting this whole "quicken spell once and you're spent". A level 3 sorcerer would have three sorcerery points, allowing him to throw out three EBs before he has to recharge. Obviously at only level 3 your max sorcery point cap is a little restricted, but once you get a few more levels it will be highly unlikely that you expend your entire sorcery point pool in a single encounter. Then inbetween encounters you sacrifice some spell slots to top yourself off for the next one.

You cannot quicken EB once it splits into more than one beam.

Nah m8, that's with twinned spell.

Quick costs 2 sorcery points. I'm so sorry, user.

WAIT, hold on.

...I am a retard who can't read. I concede defeat. Sorcerer blows. Where is the nearest fighter so I can give him a blowjob

>allowing him to throw out three EBs before he has to recharge.
Quickening a spell is 2 sorcery points, even for a cantrip.
The sorcerer can only quicken a spell once as a level 3 sorcerer.

>but once you get a few more levels it will be highly unlikely that you expend your entire sorcery point pool in a single encounter.
This isn't wrong. Sorlock does pick up later in levels, though by the later levels it starts to become 'why don't you just become a wizard? You'll be able to break the game soon.'

Sorlock is definitely better than sorcerer or warlock and definitely a match for a fighter, but they won't outdo the fighter in raw damage. They'll do better at the fact they have spells to use when they're not blasting and repel spam beyond what a battlemaster can repel.

Low level sorlocks blow.

its only a bonus action to convert? /s?

Fighter here. I'd accept a twinned haste instead.

oops my bad! you're riug

Dubs names my Rock Gnome BeastmasterRanger 3/EldritchKnightFighter x

He rides a pteradon and uses a lance.

IIRC because IRL Sha'ir were poets/philosophers among the pre-islam arabs, and because getting spells from other classes is already a bard thing.

Also because everyone else making Sha'ir conversions at the time were making it a Genie patron for Warlocks, which is backwards. Sha'ir make genies work for them, not the other way around.

You need Warlock 2 / Sorcerer 6 before Sorlock has the SP pool to last a whole fight.

But it keeps up with Fighter no problems at 11 which is when it counts. Pre-eleven Barbarians and even Rangers outdamage Fighter.

Gaia the Dinosaur Champion

Yes master

Jimmy

no last name, just Jimmy

>Rangers doing even a single point of damage
Prove it.

Luckily I found a group that has 3-4 experienced GMs that have a character show up in someone else's campaign from time to time. We have the one campaign, as well as a couple of one-shots.

Karl Brassnuts

>at 11 which is when it counts
lol

>Barbarians
But they're melee though, taking loads of damage up the ass. A Paladin would do more damage as well, but I thought we were talking ranged.

>Rangers
I really doubt it. Care to show me what you're based on?

Level 8. Same weapon, same feats, same number of attacks.

Fighters get +2 to their combat stat.
Rangers get either Colossus Slayer or Horde Breaker and optionally Favored Enemy.

Billy-bob the Crimson Scourge

Jacobus Skyfool

Rangers don't get archery fighting style or precision attack so they really don't make better sharpshooter users...
And that extra +2 to dex is kinda a big deal when you have to deal with a constant -5 to hit

Harold Richard Masterson III

How would one go about making dual wielding as good an option as great weapon master?

Wait hold on I'm a humongous retard, Rangers definitely do get a fighting style

Sorry I'm tired

So, I only have enough cash right now to purchase either the Dungeon Masters Guide or the Monster Manual. I have the PHB and Curse of Strahd and begin playing this sunday, wich do I buy?

Biggus

Impossible outside of homebrew.

The entire shtick of dual wielding is the extra bonus action attack, but 2h users can just pick up PAM and get it too.

Kinda sad how a handful of feats are singlehandedly shaping the meta for all Martial characters.

The Monster Manual. You'll need those stat blocks for CoS.

Biggus Pingas

Bilbo Baggins the Second

Chicken Dinner.

Well that's that

Fuck.

Fighter turns near misses into hits with Precision Attack, this is quite some damage. I didn't do the maths, but I think it's pretty much equivalent to an additional +2~3 to hit.
He can also Action Surge for more damage.
But Colossus Slayer and Horde Breaker are pretty good.
Yeah, I think Fighter has the upper hand in shorter fights because of action surge, but Ranger definitely edges out as turns passes.

Dual wielding lances on a Warhorse is pretty fun. Not as high damage as GWM+PAM cheese festival but still fun.

Thanks!

Also, I have a guy wanting to play a Ranger Beastmaster, but I've been hearing it's a literal shit-tier subclass.

Should I use the UA Revised Ranger Beast Conclave instead?
Should I use only the subclass and it's feats or should I use the whole revised class?

Okay. Lets say I'm willing to homebrew.

Goal: Bring all the combat styles roughly in line (power wise) with Shield Master.

Nerf GWM/PAM/SS.
Buff Dual Wielder up to Shield Master.

What would I need to change to do so?

(Because frankly, if I can't balance this shit via homebrew in the next week before they start building characters, I am heavily leaning towards just banning the main combat feats, and I'm sure my players will whine about that.)

So, How do we go about bringing the combat styles more in-line with eachother, power-wise?

In a previous thread, it was suggested:

GWM is -5/+7
PAM is only OAs, and drop the extra attack.

How do we bring the others inline?

Revised ranger, full class.

>nerf martials
>instead of bringing shit options up to par with the holy trio
Caster detected. Wasted quads.

Can someone explain to me what makes GWM and PAM good? 1d4 doesn't seem like a lot.

Just ban GWM and SS and literally everything will work itself out

WIth just that change dual lances will be the most damaging option. So you'd succeed on making dual wield viable, and making the Dual Wielder feat important.

The damage die itself is less relevant than the modifiers.

Has anyone used these magic item prices before?

1d4, plus your strength mod, plus 10 damage from GWM. So in reality it only deals 3 less damage than your main attack.

>DnD villain
Honestly I find premade villans hard for me to appreciate, I guess Strahd would have to take the cake even though I'm not huge on CoS.

>region/kingdom/location
Cormyr. By far. Something about the land of Knights and Wizards with a powerful milatary and common magic appeals to me.

>spell
Call Lightning. It may not be good but holy shit is it fun.

>magical item
That one's tough. I've always had a love for Cloaks of Elvenkind though.

It's not about nerfing martials, it's about balancing feats.

I want the middle tier feats to actually be viable.

This is particularly relevant because the players will actually *GET* feats before level 16.

Players wanted to actually experience feats, so I'm making the ASI portion (up to 8) automatic, rather than buy in, and at 1/4/8/12/16/19 they will be choosing a feat.

Also, where feats are "optional" the power boost from the core fighting style feats is not meant to be a mandatory feat tax on martials.

If I'm not gonna nerf PAM/GWM/SS, then the other fighting styles need to be boosted up to that level, and they shouldn't be competing with the normal feats, because that's no choice at all.

>GWM is -5/+7
Now it's only worth on naked enemies, and not worth at all if you have a magic sword! Bonus action attack would still be efficient, but not really worth it depending on your DM or campaign (single tough guy or lots of mooks)

>PAM is only OAs
Can easily be not worth it IMO, based on the same considerations as above.

>it's not about nerfing martials, it's about weakening the feats they actually use - that's totally not a nerf!

Isn't the minus 5 to hit substantial?

Smolton the Expendable, the Pack Mule.

I was strongly considering that. When I mentioned it 2 days ago here, I got a dozen replies telling me that banning them was a terrible idea, and fixing them was a much better idea than cutting them.

It should be worth it as often as shield master.

I'm open to suggestions.

I either need to bring them more in line with eachother, or ban the outliers

Given that feats are an optional mechanic, yeah, the options that stand head and shoulders above everything else in feats are too good to be feats.

Rather than greenposting, say something useful.

If you think GWM/PAM/SS are reasonable as is (the prevailing opinion I hear time and again seems to be that they're not, which is why I went towards nerfing them), give advice on how to bring the other combat style feats up to their level.

You missed it

Yes, you will miss more often but in exchange for essentially doubling your damage output. If you do the math it's statistically a good move.

Besides, there are ways to mitigate it - Advantage and Precision Attack, to name a few.

Why is shield master the basis for all of your balance changes?

Also, bringing all the combat feats up to GWM+SS level will just break the damn game. You also have to careful that they can't do something like take SS on top of one your new feats and reach ridiculous power levels

It's pretty much always worth it. It's better vs low AC enemies. It loses steam if your weapon has pluses.
If you have a really dope magical weapon which adds extra dice to damage, it's probably not worth at all unless it's against really low AC enemies.

>It should be worth it as often as shield master.
If you say so.

What about
GWM: (Once per turn, maybe) you can choose to have disadvantage on an attack roll. If you hit, your weapon damage (not extra dice, fuck pallys) is maximized.
Have a mathfag do the maths.

Fuck, it would be really good on barbs.
If it's once per turn, IDK.

If you think Pam and gwm and Ss are balanced feats, it should be hard to decide between them and all the other feats. They shouldn't be universally the right choice.

Then you should to buff every other feat until they're competitive.

Or then they shouldn't be feats, and make them something else, like universal class features.

That sounds like hot fucking garbage

That new GWM would be +4.5 average damage once every turn if you're using a glaive/halberd. Compare to +30 damage from three attacks... This kills the GWM

I agree. That's why I think gwm and Ss need a nerf if they're going to stay feats.

Though if I buffed the other combat styles to match, I'd straight up make them non-feats, and just give the players one of them and only one of them.

>why shield master.
Because nobody complains about it being OP, and when people rate feats it gets rated well without being the tier 1 that Ss and gwm are.

Its either balance it against shield Master, or crossbow expert, or against dual wield, if they're gonna remain feats.

Good?
Martials, without feats, beat out casters on damage for the most part. That's a good thing, but it also means that straight more damage feats aren't really solving anything.

I actually dislike that user's "fix", but i absolutely would support making feats more versatile, martial oriented but not exclusive, but less raw damage.

I should note though that I have said to the group that I won't be using Unearthed Arcana (except in special circumstances) since this is our first time playing DnD.

Is it still a good idea?