Chaos is easily the shittiest part of the setting
>muh we already won
>muh endless daemons
>muh gonna destroy all of reality
>muh now we timeless and independent of mortals
>muh always irredeemably evil all the time
How do we fix this shit and make it interesting?
Chaos is easily the shittiest part of the setting
>muh we already won.
This is the most sue-y part of chaos and should be changed to being ambiguous instead of functionally confirmed.
>muh endless daemons
I'm fine with this to a point. If the daemons showing u are literally endless it breaks entropy. Daemons should spill out of rifts like a hole in a barrel.
>muh gonna destroy all of reality
Gives them far to much credit. Space is big and the combined soulpower of all living things in the galaxy would not translate to galaxy eating rifts. Especially when the buildup is constantly being lessened by people using warp powers in realspace. Also the galaxy is where they keep their food. Kinda dumb of them to destroy it.
>muh now we timeless and independent of mortals
Agreed Chaos should not be immune to causality and their very existence depends on people being crazy.
>muh always irredeemably evil all the time
Makes sense in context. Chaos as the faction we see now is just a byproduct of the fucked up minds of everyone in the galaxy creating nightmare horrors. Chaos as a faction should be intent on keeping the galaxy as extreme as possible forever so they can forever gorge on crazy fanatics. They should always be trying to use the least amount of warp energy to keep things stable fear any group that shows up with a level head.
>How do we fix this shit and make it interesting?
Double down on everything you mentioned and make it even more over the top. Magnify the good and the bad. Fuck power creep, fuck faction bloat, just keep pouring it on and trying to outdo every ridiculous aspect with something even more ridiculous. Then do the same for Orks, Nids, IG, Marines, Necrons, Eldar, everybody. 40K is best when it's an over the top caricature of itself, deepfags need not apply.
>How do we fix this shit?
Considering marines are the only thing that actually matter what needs to happen is fixing CSMs. Having CSM being a horde of mooks is a terrible, terrible waste. Marines that fall to chaos should be insidious, enchanting monstrosities that demonstrate the power their chosen god. In much the same why as Kharn, Lucius, Ahriman and Typhus are portrayed other CSM should be on that level. However they should be so few in number as only the pinnacle of the heretics should survive survive.
All Marines who come across a Slanneshi warlord should be amazed by their unworldly perfection. True they may be sickened in the back of their mind but feel compelled to know more. They should be jealous of the Khorne berserker for their strength and capabilities. They should feel the blood lust rise inside of them as they see the bloody path he cuts through his enemies. Librarians should feel awe and jealous of the powers wielded by Tzeentch sorcerers. They should see the secrets half hidden in the sorcerous powers unleashed on those they should be defending. Fuck Nurgle however that fgts gay as fuck.
This is what I think needs to be fixed. Imperial guardsmen shouldnt fight CSM. The encounter should be so rare as to be unheard of, and if it ever did happen they should fall either mentally or literally at their feet. This would justify the Inquisitors actions. This would explain the Emperors hiding of the forces of Chaos. Until this happens chaos are a joke who are simply propped up by shitty narrator fluff. Having a rule book say 'CHAOS NUMBA 1' means nothing when they're shown to be complete failures in every single story.
>Until this happens chaos are a joke who are simply propped up by shitty narrator fluff. Having a rule book say 'CHAOS NUMBA 1' means nothing when they're shown to be complete failures in every single story.
Wow somebody is so salty that he has to say Chaos are failures when they are not.
Here have a galaxy ripped in half. Tell me how this is propped by narrator.
I'm a TSons-fag. Tell me when has a chaos army ever been shown to be superior to a similarly sized Imperial force. Basically never. This is the problem.
Besides as I said its not about fucking side objective achieved that makes Chaos interesting. Abaddon being on Cadia should have cracked the fucking planet after he does something impressive. Having him lose a duel to fucking Celestine then back off and drop a rock on it? Wow how impressive.
Stop being such a blind chaos-fag and try and see how the fluff could be improved.
Less daemons and space marines, more enslavers and other Lovecrafty bullshit.
Add more OP factions and a shitload more xenos or robot or even humanish factions too, with all their pantheons, supertech, weapons of mass destruction, etc as well.
Chaos should be one predator in a sea of madness and insanity. Biggest or well known, but there should still be secret cthulhu tier monstrosities lurking underneath.
Also the Imperium should be buffed up with more deus ex shenanigans but also made much more evil and ruthless. IE emphasize the child soldiers, slavery, murder of innocents, and straight up sacrificing soldiers to blood gods in order to buy another second of existence for the Imperium.
>Tell me when has a chaos army ever been shown to be superior to a similarly sized Imperial force.
Open the daemonkin codex and read some of the daemonkin victories.
Stop being such a faggot reading your post shows that you are a toddler who doesn't read the fluff because....
>Having him lose a duel to fucking Celestine then back off
This didn't happen. Abaddon won the duel against Celestine with a bitchslap. Greyfax saved Celestine life by using all her power to tear at his mind and render him blind. Then Creed charged at Abaddon with his command squad who all died except for Creed who get his arm ripped out and chocked by Abaddon. Then Celestine saved Creed's life by stabbing Abaddon.
With the Pylons activating and shutting down the Warp, it threatened to leave him stranded on Cadia surronded by the 8th Cadian regiment. That's why he teleported out and dropped the Blackstone remnants on Cadia which was the plan all along. You are such a faggot that you missed Abaddon's speech to the wounded Creed. Abaddon only came down to have one final fight before he destroyed the planet. It was a matter of pride and nothing else.
And bloody hell it was impressive because all the bullshit asspulls of the Imperials in the end could not save them from being defeated by Abaddon.
If any fluff that needs fixing is the Imperial plot armour which almost ruined the story.
It's not an opinion. It's facts from Fall of Cadia and disproving your faggorty.
Announcing reports and shitposting is a bannable offence, I hope you know that.
the answer is you can't. GW will always pander to the fanboys of this shitty faction and space marines in general, because go figure, they are fanboys of those things themselves. This shit is what happens when your team has zero self awareness and lacks an ability to seperate themselves from their personal preferences.
Could it be cool for them to give more stuff to nids or orcs? why yes it would. Instead though, itll probably be some new add on for fucking marines again or some new bullshit on marines will get that makes them better than any other faction that used to be able to do x before it got retconned to GW's favorite fair haired boys
No, the last remaining writers are xenofags. Phil Kelly and Robin Crud are known to be huge fans of the xenos races. Phil loves the Eldar while Crud loves the Tyranids.
The Empirium is easily the shittiest part of the setting
>muh we will inevitably win
>muh endless guardsmen
>muh gonna turn the tides and rule all of reality
>muh soon we gonna turn into psychic gods and all be masters of the warp
>muh always irredeemably stupid all the time
How do we fix this shit and make it interesting?
Turn it back into the original concept
1. Chaos is extremely powerful and corrupting, but not omnipotent.
2. Chaos is not pure evil, its composed of the emotions, passions, and thoughts of the inhabitants of the galaxy. However because sentient beings are so grimdark [or at least impassioned] Chaos tends to trend towards wickedness. This is how the Warp became the Realm of Chaos.
3. All the Chaos gods, while primarily evil and destructive, had a few positive qualities that the Imperium lacks. The Imperium is ruthless, Khornates should be honorable [at least in the sense of seeking worthy opponents over simple slaughter], the Imperium is despairing and ignorant, Tzeentch promises hope and knowledge [but at what cost?], the Imperium is indifferent, Nurgle genuinely cares about you and wants to see you happy. And of course Slaanesh is the Prince of Pleasure in contrast to the Imperium's being spartan and monkish [with the exception of decadent nobles, who may well be corrupted by Slaanesh].
Instead we get, and keep getting
>Chaos is omnipotent
>Chaos is edgy and evil and has no positive traits
>Chaos is really edgy and evil and has no positive traits
>Chaos is teleporting behind you and raping your girlfriend behind the Hot Topic and has no positive traits
>The Emperor got his powers from Chaos
>The Primarchs came from Chaos
And so on and so on forever because the fanbase and writers are shit.
...
>muh we already won
>muh endless daemons
>muh gonna destroy all of reality
40k is full of factions that have are destined to win with functionally limitless resources but who are constantly held back by one little detail (Necrons, Tyranids, Orks), or are hoplessly outmatched but still fighting anyway (Impertium, Eldar, Tau.) Play it up on the other factions, then it's a silly clusterfuck, instead of just chaoswank.
>muh now we timeless and independent of mortals
>muh always irredeemably evil all the time
Yeah, that's gay with a capital Fuck-You. Chaos is a manifestation of ensouled beings of a given region of realspace. While the warp-mirror of any given realspace region is infinite, the region of realspace it reflects is indeed finite. There are other regions of space where chaos is different, or nonexistent because mortals are different there: just not in the grimderpness of the future.
Basically, you go back to having everything from a non-omniscient narrator, and all of these opinions be either from paranoid inquisitors who are terrified of chaos, or from whacadoodle cultists.
>Friendly reminded that chaos is getting BTFO by one Magos.
Damn it feels good to be a tech-heretic.
Not really. Cawl is working on some Imperial Pylons but he hasn't finished them yet. As things stand, the Great Rift is still expanding.
Also Admech experiments at closing Warpstorms always ended up in disasters.
>Cawl is working on some Imperial Pylons but he hasn't finished them yet.
Chekovs gun seems obvious here as proto-types are being deployed in Dark Imperium.
>Cawl is working on some Imperial Pylons but he hasn't finished them yet.
>Implying Cawl gives a fuck about the Admech
Ignore everything after Chambers left, just like all 40k lore issues.
Ad mech experiments, not Belisarius "Notorious C" Cawl
Stay mad, Imperiumcuck.
>
2. Chaos is not pure evil, its composed of the emotions, passions, and thoughts of the inhabitants of the galaxy. However because sentient beings are so grimdark [or at least impassioned] Chaos tends to trend towards wickedness. This is how the Warp became the Realm of Chaos.
This, holy fuck.
Agreed. It's become really stale and boring. We need more ambiguous chaos stuff, less chaos wank, and more weird crazy warp stuff not related to chaos like enslavers or the tyrant star
>>Chaos is edgy and evil and has no positive traits
>>Chaos is really edgy and evil and has no positive traits
I want Chaos to seem like a viable (but darker) alternative path for humanity instead of LOL WE USE BABIES FOR TARGET PRACTICE cartoon evil, but maybe this isn't the right setting for that
I haven't read Dark Imperium, does it actually factually say that Chaos has "already won and will win forever" or is that just gloating Chaos propoganda used to taunt the Imperium?
This.
shit mate, you have no clue about 40K's starting tone, do you ?
>muh we already won
I'm convinced you're the faggot that keeps saying this shit in all these threads. I'm a chaos faggot and chaos by no means has "already won"
For fuck sake, chaos is winning for the first time in years and you are throwing an absolute bitch fit
It isn't in Dark Imperium, in fact it isn't in any codex other than Chaos (of course), but ADB loves to jerk it off in his books because he's got issues up the ass.
Actually, it's in the main rulebooks.
Master of Mankind
The chapter "Death of a Dream" and up.
The case here is Imperialfags are just made their bubble of superiority has been burst with their inevitable doom (as the setting original writers intended) has been reaffirmed.
Read Talon of Horus and Master of Mankind nigga.
>chaos is winning for the first time in years and you are throwing an absolute bitch fit
>tfw Guilliman is back
>tfw he's got chadmarines
>tfw they've got new and cool shit
>tfw rekt by Celestine
>tfw rekt by autistic half robot and kleptomaniac mummy
>tfw CREEEEEED'd for a last time
>tfw even after I blew up Cadia nothing's happening
>tfw Blood Crusade rekt by Swarmlord and Ghazgkhul
>tfw Huron's scheming again
>tfw "winning"
Make them into the Chaos gods from Warhammer Fantasy.
Alternatively have them similar to how Magnus described them in TEGTTD, possessing both the good and bad of humanity. Hell have it that the Chaos Gods are literally at war with themselves. Khorne empowers his Champions and worshipers to be powerful while his other side grants strength to honorable men to face those empowered Champions. Have Tzeentch scheme and plot while his other side gives insights to people to unravel those plots.
That's the thing, it's not even real victories and yet fags like OP are complaining that chaos is being portrayed as unstoppable. Its Fucking annoying that faggots like him can't pull their head out of their ass
It's an example of telling and not showing.
The rulebooks and ADB tell us that Chaos is winning, but then Gathering Storm happened and actual hope in 40k exists.
>Make them into the Chaos gods from Warhammer Fantasy
Wait, how are they different?
>>tfw rekt by Celestine
No, he wasn't He beat her fair and square. She just deliver a minor flesh wound to him as he was torturing Creed and then ran away like a bitch. How is that Rekt? It was 3 vs 1 against a normal marine and they could not take him down.
>>tfw rekt by autistic half robot and kleptomaniac mummy
Cawl failed in Cadia and all Trazyn's efforts to save Cadia proved futile to the point that he shrugged and said that he is better a thief than a hero. He lost a massive collection during the fighting and his only consolation prize was Creed missing his arm.
>>tfw CREEEEEED'd for a last time
Did nothing of the sort. His relevant contribution was running towards Abaddon and getting his shit kicked in. What was he expecting? He had a whole regiment with him. Send in the fucking tanks. Why was he charging Abaddon?
>>tfw Blood Crusade rekt by Swarmlord and Ghazgkhul
No, for the thousandth time, it wasn't rekt. The daemons were there for one goal. Fight and reap blood and skulls. They stayed as long as the Warpstorm permitted and left. There was no winner or loser in that fight because there was no objective other than fighting for the sake of fighting.
>>tfw Huron's scheming again
The only piece of fluff we have about Huron is that he bent the knee to Abaddon. There is nothing else.
>>tfw Guilliman is back
So is Fulgrim, Mort, and Magnus. 3 > 1
>>tfw he's got chadmarines
And they have their cult marines with them. According to GW, Chaos responded to the P-marines by boosting their cult marines powers.
fuck off, chaos is the only thing that brought me here over staying in starcraft
>tfw got Carnac to reply, sparing his presence from other 40k threads and allowing them to have actual discussions
And my duty is done.
They arent super edge lords, at least not in the early to mid areas.
I think thought the Fantasy gods were more 'human' as they had plenty of powerful opponents who offset them and could counter their moves. In 40K it is so grimdark chaos almost always wins. Also they had decent champions who weren't all Space Marines and their Chosen Champion wasn't some asshole who has been holding the plot in limbo for fucking years.
No, there isn't. Girlyman's Crusade was about restocking and aiding the falling chapters and giving everyone P-marines. They have a long way to go. With half the Imperium in darkness and Ultramar being besieged by Nurgle.
And you misunderstand what's in MoM. Chaos will grind humanity to dust. They are endless and immortal, the galaxy's people's are finite and mortal. The races of the galaxy can only delay the final victory of Chaos but eventually Chaos will win. Heck in Dark Imperium Girlyman is told the history of Chaos. How the fight against the Primordial Annihilator stenches back millions of years ago. How countless races have fought against Chaos and ended up being consumed by it. Humanity's struggle against Chaos is the latest chapter in a saga that goes back to the beginning of time and it won't be the last.
Not an argument and I am in more than one thread. You cannot hold me here. I am omnipresent!
>Humanity's struggle against Chaos is the latest chapter in a saga that goes back to the beginning of time and it won't be the last
That's just what aliencucks think.
Chaos has never faces humanity before.
But it doesn't surprise me that a fat loser like you, Carnie, is anti-humanity fuck yeah
Yeah, whatever.
Why don't you go out once in a while?
Actually, it faced beings far greater than humanity and won. Take a lesson from Grey Knight Stern who admits that Chaos's victory is certain though he will fight anyway, or Girlyman who understands now how small humanity is in the backdrop that is the eternal war against Chaos.
I was out all morning though.
>The encounter should be so rare as to be unheard of, and if it ever did happen they should fall either mentally or literally at their feet.
Dude what the fuck are you talking about? Space Marines die to Orks and disposable mooks all the time. There is no reason chaos marines should be "dood so badass" that guardsmen are literally immobilized in pure fear.
I really don't get that from ADB's work at all
Only one who says it are unreliable narrators
Getting your disability check doesn't count.
Is the Emperor an unreliable narrator?
Morning jog actually. Gotta keep healthy.
Chaos is run by daemons who want to eat your souls. Literally Satan x 4.
The whole point of the "good" aspects of chaos is that they're bait. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Hahahahahahaha
Going by the 8th ED fluff, Nurgle seems like a swell non-evil guy. Not-All-Chaos.
>Nurgle is the Great Lord of Decay and the Master of Plague and Pestilence. All things, no matter how solid and permanent they seem, are liable to eventual corruption, and Grandfather Nurgle sows the seeds of that entropy with carefully brewed infections and epidemics. Yet despite this grim work he is not a morose or dolorous god. Life begets death, and in turn death gives birth to new life, in the form of pallid, wriggling things that crawl free from mouldering corpses. Thus, the Plague God sees himself as a benevolent fellow, and goes about his business with laughter and honest joy. He sees mortal souls not as things to be dominated and destroyed, but naïve children to be plied with flesh-rotting gifts, and thus enlightened as to the true wonder of disease and decay.
>There was precious little malice in the workings of Nurgle. Cruelty, yes, as life was cruel. Rapaciousness, even. But the horror of Nurgle was one of cosmic consideration. Khorne cared not from whence the blood flowed, but Nurgle cared for every life, no matter how tiny. Nurgle noticed every life. Every soul that crossed the threshold of the Lord of All Things received a splinter of his attention, and suffered for it.
-8th ED Nurgle lore
He's been wrong before.
I dunno I don't read HH shit
My distinct memory of Night Lords was the opposite to that however
Cardio is no laughing matter!
Why would he be reliable?
He was telling his Custard companion that "WE ARE FUCKED FOREVER AND I DUNNO WHAT TO DO". It seemed honest since he was in a state of despair and speaking his mind to what is basically a golden robot.
He might've been honest but it doesn't mean he was right
Chaos is at war with itslef, khornate warbands kill eachother all the time
Despair notoriously clouds the mind.
What I mean is the literal gods. Imagine Shiragorath from Oblivion [spoilers] being both the mad god and the god of order. Now apply that to the Chaos gods, Khorne blesses a berserker champion, only for his 'good side' to bless a warrior of the imperium to be able to face that foe[/spoiler]
see Chaos shouldn't be nearly as powerful as the fluff keeps telling us seeing as they lose all the fucking time. But it doesn't matter because even their losses are actually wins or the chaos gods weren't actually trying. It's retarded, chaos should have to deal with losses and casualties just like everyone else
Don't link to my post when you don't understand it.
Fall of Cadia was a straight out win for Chaos despite the complications along the way.
And the Blood Crusade vs Octria was just slaughterfest with no objective beyond that.
The user who brought them up is retarded and so are you. Try using real examples next time.
Give them back positive traits. Mist notably Khorne and his sense of honor
Great contribution to the thread, you're a real stellar user
Less CSM, More the Lost and the Damned + Demons
It's Carnac, pleb extraordinaire, what do you expect?
>muh we already won
They didn't win shit. Don't believe their lies.
>hey Veeky Forums check my blog
Uh oh, hope you like a deluge of text from the resident aspie
>A chaos fanboy
>Thinks someone else's faction has plot armor.
Oh boy.
Honestly, probably the best way to do it is make them extremely powerful in the metaphyiscal realm of the warp, but with an extraordinarily limited ability to project that power into the real galaxy, far more so than is currently the case.
In large part, they're relying on mobs of screaming fanatics with little tactical sense or armaments, hoping they can hide or hold out long enough to summon Daemons or make Daemon worlds or the like. Conventionally, they're by far the weakest of the major factions, and while it might not be possible to go to the warp and defeat them finally, it's very well within the possibility that an organized and smart enough Galaxy can keep them locked up there forever.
So make Malal a thing in the sense that he's a significant portion of each chaos god? That they secretly like the struggle and the uncertainty in it and would rather wallow in the chaos of war with no end than win completely?
I don't know... remove that "chaos just wants in the end to murderfuck and torture everything violence violence violence" and the "chaos makes you a murderous psycopath, no exceptions allowed".
Chaos should be about lack of order, of endless change and conflict, not "murder murder murder torture murder suffering suffering"
Makes no sense billions flock to something that is openly styled as "Ruinous Powers", something that devolves you into some gibbering mutated animal and so forth. Chaos Gods being monomaniacal tulpas and psychic/emotional waste given form detracts the meaning of "chaos".
>muh we already won
This needs sorting because it completely ruins any immersion in the setting when 1 faction is guaranteed to auto win, makes the setting suddenly 100x less interesting
>muh endless daemons
Technically Daemons are numbered, since creating them takes a portion of the gods power (albeit it a tiny portion) they appear endless because when they die they just coalesce in the warp and come back
>muh gonna destroy all of reality
Yeah its a bit retarded since they feed off emotion and physical actions make them stronger or weaker, destroying all reality is kinda.... anti chaotic, if anything they should want the universe in constant state of warfare and chaos and misery
>muh now we timeless and independent of mortals
Yeah also a bit meh, they need to be reliant on the mortal realm for sustenance, they even describe the imperium as their "sheep" in one story
>muh always irredeemably evil all the time
I don't mind this so much, but some other aspects or small details within them could be interesting
This, I don't really get how anyone falls to chaos in universe when they are all literally mutated "so evil" monsters
>Master of Mankind
Friendly reminder that all the statements that "Chaos has won forever" are made in character and therefore can be wrong.
>muh Emperor
The Emperor made plenty of mistakes. That's why the Heresy happened.
>muh Drach'nyen
It's a daemon. They aren't omniscient.
On the subject of chaos there was a youtube video that I assume was a sample of an audiobook, Kharn was narrating a fight onboard a world eater cruiser, a practice match, angron starts screaming and they all go blood mad
Anyone got a link?
It's called the eight fold path.
Check the hh general
awesome cheers!
They're only "so evil" from a holistic or out-of-universe point of view. Their MO is to prey on the emotions of individual men who can't see the big picture. And they do reward their followers: turning to them could give one power unobtainable from any other source. Although I agree that GW could play up the temptation aspect a little more than they currently do, especially with Nurgle. Mortarion's fall to Chaos in the Death Guard HH book was basically just him meeting the protagonist halfway through and going "er.. by the way, I'm with the other guys now."
Bump
Go back to Starcraft.
Yeah but CSM are supposed to be the Marines that not only survived the heresy but 10 millennia of internal conflict and war with the imperium, and have the ability to think outside of the Codex, the gifts of the dark gods and the forbidden arsenal of the dark mechanicus. They shouldn't be on par with your garden variety marine.