/5eg/ - Fifth Edition General

what's a good mage killer build for martial?

I've been thinking about a warlock/apostate mage hunter type character for a little while now.

The mage-slayer feat seems like a given, but what else?

Mage slayer is pretty melee focused, so depending on what you're going for it might be a bad fit despite the name. When I think iconic witch hunting man I usually think crossbow. What class were you thinking?

Paladin, for the absurd saving throw bonus
Bearbarian, for absurd tankiness

If you mean SS+CBE vs GWM+PAM, then they're pretty close damage wise. SS+CBE Hand Crossbow has overall better round-to-round DPR, but GWM+PAM can overcome it depending on how often it gets Reaction attacks in (which SS+CBE can't).

That said, SS+CBE has 100ft range and can start attacking immediately in combat without regards for positioning.

So it's up to you whether circumstantial damage is worth the loss of that range (hint: it isn't). GWM+PAM has 2 better AC also.

I haven't really picked a class yet. I usually try to get a theme and personality for a character first and then I go with an appropriate class.

I was thinking more melee focus though, so probably fighter or paladin

Mage Slayer isn't that good since they can just Misty Step away

>GWM+PAM has 2 better AC also
Huh?

In terms of ability to resist magic paladin would rank the highest unless you're high enough level where it might be monk. I think ancients paladins also have some sort of spell resisting feature, though I imagine that would be something of a limiting factor in character concept. If you go paladin I'd probably just get mage slayer and probably later GWM. If you go fighter I'd just get the shooty stuff and complain about mages more in character

Shadow monk 7/warlock 2. Put down some darkness and *teleport behind* the wizard so mage slayer can kick in while having resistance against the more problematic types of spell saving throws

The fighting style and full plate. In theory you could still pick those as a ranged guy, but there's a strength requirement for full plate, and you'd be crazy to not get +2 to hit on ranged weapons if that's all you use

>martial mage killer
Don't bother. The best anti-mage build is a Abjuration wizard who can add proficiency to Counterspell checks.
I've also toyed with the idea of a War Cleric who pops Antimagic Field, grapples the enemy spellcaster and bashes their head in with a warhammer. The only problem is that Antimagic FIeld is an 8th level spell...

How would you refluff paladin in a way that makes it hard or even impossible to tell that the character is supposed to be a paladin?

Alternatively, what's the most creative refluffing of a class you've ever seen? I'm looking for something that makes perfect sense mechanically, but thematically doesn't resemble the base class in any identifiable way.

Does nobody use the Great Weapon fighting style?

Since it's an average damage increase (of max 1.33) over a flat damage upgrade, it's generally more worthwhile to take Defense and get half a shield's worth of AC over the tiniest bit of extra damage.

>misty step
You realize that not everyone has misty step?
Hell, most NPC casters don't have misty step either.

Disadvantges to having 7 str? I have a bag of holding.

The concept of an oath is central to a paladin, if they break their oath they lose their powers. It's hard to get around that with a reflavoring.

Beats me. On average it's probably like +2 damage with 2d6 or 1d12, but I would personally pick the armor one every time. I'm not the guy who posted the "2 better AC" part though

It's very good on Greatswords.

Perhaps it makes sense on Barb X / Champ 3? Boost crit chance may overcome the PAM DPR advantage. I'll math it out.

That one time you'll have to make a really important check while climbing and being easily knocked prone. Otherwise it's probably not a big deal

That's why it's fun to think about. I think anything can be refluffed to an extent, it's just a matter of how creative you are.

I am not very creative.

>teleport to enemy
>stab them
>they try and teleport away
>you stab them
>repeat

Wow real fucking useful, you get 3 attacks in and they burn a 2nd level to get away from you, but you're a fucking monk so you can just zip back over, you don't even need to be a shadow monk.

Any Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock worth their salt would.

You might actually have to start paying attention to your carry weight

I'm the guy and it's:

Greatsword: +1.33 damage
Halberd: +0.8 damage
Greataxe: +.83 damage

+1 AC is better except arguably for GS, but those have other considerations.

PAM
>While you are wielding a glaive, halberd, pike, or quarterstaff, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they enter your reach.

War Caster
> When a hostile creature’s movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature

Since you can use a quarterstaff as your arcane focus, could you combine those feats and spell an enemy that moves within 5 feet of you as an AoO?

Is there any enemy where using bludgeoning damage is a bad idea?

Recently came up against some Ochre Jellies and had the nasty surprise of duplicating them with my Greatsword slash. I was thinking of subbing my Greatsword out for a Maul since it's clear we'll be fighting more jellies and oozes soon.

As a Wizard, would I rather have 7 Strength or 7 Charisma? I know that Charisma is mostly for social situations, but there's also a few brutal Cha saves whereas Str isn't that big of a deal.

Yes.

I think the best you could do is using cantrip like Green Flame Blade, or spells that specifically mention a weapon attack. You can't Power Word: Kill with it (I think)

>Any Wizard, Sorcerer, or Warlock worth their salt would.

NPCs you fuckwit.
Also only Fey Patron Warlocks can have misty step.

RAW, it would seem so.

War Caster + SCAG cantrips can get pretty busted. I guess it's even more busted now.
Note that you don't need an arcane focus to use those cantrips, either. Halberds away!

depends on the type of character you want to play, but it's more likely that low str would be more thematically fitting than low charisma

War Caster:
>"...you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature... casting time of 1 action... must target only that creature."
RAW, you can totally PW:K them. Or Polymorph them. Or Modify Memory them. Or a host of other silly shenanigans.

REALLY depends on how your DM deals with encumbrance.

I'd probably pick 7 strength. You could easily make a case for either, but a lot of strength saves are probably close combat related (which you should be avoiding on a more direct level)

All warlocks can have Misty Step as a bonus action, but Fey warlocks get it as a reaction to taking damage

for a shelelagh paladin/warlock build, should I be strength or dex as a build up to getting the cantrip? Strength means I don't have to dump two stats, but dex will stay useful after I start using cha for everything and applies better to skills

Rolling for initiative already breaks the flow of the game, doing it every round is a disaster

Paladin gets Misty Step (Oath of the Ancients )
Sorcerer gets Misty Step
Wizard gets Misty Step
Warlock gets Misty Step
Arcane Trickster gets Misty Step (via Wizard list)
Eldritch Knight gets Misty Step (via Wizard list)
Bard gets Misty Step (via Magical Secrets)
Land Druid gets Misty Step (Coast)

Misty Step is on the Warlock spell list

>tfw my Wizard has 8 Strength and 7 Charisma
It's not a big deal, really. Just don't expect to convince people through talking.

>Be 4th-level warlock
>Be V. Human
>PAM and War Caster
>Whenever enemy approaches, use your reaction to EB them + Repelling Blast
>This build only works exactly when you're level 4
You want meme builds? We've got meme builds!

My group doesn't even roll initiative. The greatest benefit of this is that there's no clear demarcation between "non-combat" and "combat" interaction, which makes roleplaying way better.

Every alternate initiative ruleset has the same two problems:

1) They take too much damn time

2) They're too much damn work for the DM

Just pick dex and use a dex weapon until you can cast it

vengence paladins get it too

I dunno why people were complaining about mystic being too anime when every fucking class can teleport as a bonus action several times per day like it's DBZ

The issue is that I still need 13 strength to multiclass, meaning that with point buy/half-elf I'd have to run something like 13/16/14/8/8/16

>My group doesn't even roll initiative. The greatest benefit of this is that there's no clear demarcation between "non-combat" and "combat" interaction, which makes roleplaying way better.

90% yes, provided you paid the extra gold for the Arcane Focus Staff from the Adventuring Gear chart, not the cheaper one from the Weapons chart..

DMG 140 says "Unless a staff's description says otherwise, a staff can be used as a quarterstaff." Both Mearls and Crawford have said that's intentional and allowed in their games.

PAM gives you the Opportunity Attack without condition. War Caster lets you re-purpose your Opportunity Attack without condition.

The thinnest sliver of argument against is the possibility of arguing that wielding a quarterstaff isn't the same as wielding an item that can be used as a quarterstaff, which I reject both on the grounds of plain English meaning and that PAM does not capitalize quarterstaff, which is common when discussing a specific keyword instead of a word in general usage.

Unless you don't roll at all!~

Honestly, don't knock it 'till you try it. I was skeptical at first too, but tried it out and the group really enjoys it.

I dunno mn, low charisma wizards is pretty appropriate. They can be grating and cocky like nobody's business.

You're not wrong. isn't wrong, either.

8 Wis is asking to get possessed. Go Str.

We use a deck of cards. We put in one red card for every PC/ally and one black card for every enemy. We shuffle the cards and draw them one at a time to determine who goes next.

It's not perfect, but things run quickly. I also like the "suspense" of not knowing who is going next.

It depends a lot on how you want to play your character.

Half Elf does nicely starting 16 STR/CHA and going Paladin until 6th (for Aura of Protection and grabbing PAM along the way) before MCing into Warlock.

Starting with 13 STR (min. required to MC) and 16 CHA means that you'll be most effective playing much as a pure Warlock would, relying on Eldritch Blast+Agonizing Blast, until character level 8 or so when you have Shillelagh, PAM and Extra Attack.

That's the worst part of initiative rolling
>you see a guy lurking in the shadows
>Roll Initiative!
>suddenly everyone starts attacking, they don't even know who or what it is

In general, I like to give my players warning before they enter combat. "You poke your head around the door and see a group of goblins in the next room." The problem with this is it doesnt make much sense (shouldnt the goblins see the players, too?) and penalizes sneakily scouty play. But I dont want to remove player agency by having them bumble into combat encounters they arent ready for. What do?

So high Dex characters or characters with the Alert feat have the same chance of going first?

Like I said, it's not perfect, but it works well enough.

Passive perception, user. Passive perception.

What if you just used the same system as passive perception, everyone's initiative is more or less fixed except for +/- 5 depending on advantage/disadvantage

The problem with this is that you have a 16 in a stat that exists to do one thing (help you murder more effectively for the first few levels) and then eventually becomes pointless outside of +1 AC if you get plate while dex makes you way more versatile and even when it stops helping you murder directly it still helps with initiative, armor and more skills

>host game
>guy introduces his character like this youtube.com/watch?v=eZgUhN_sF6E
what do?

I can't say anything bad about that because I do it all the time.

That's why I've become so off-put with initiative system changes in general. If a GM actually told me they wanted to do that at the start of the game it would be one thing, but taking steps to raise an initiative score then being presented some alternative system that doesn't take that into account is kind of frustrating. I would probably be less annoyed if it hadn't happened to me multiple times with different GMs

Would you have 16 dex if it meant having 8 Wis though? Because that's really the question at hand.

If they want to be warned of fights to come, they have to actually scout out for them. Any half-decent party can do this even at low levels (Invisibility, sending out a familiar, Wild Shape into something very small, or, as a last resort, send the rogue ahead a little.)

But in any case, the fight will go down almost the same way whether they see it coming or not unless you really go old-school and include monsters they have absolutely no chance of beating.

Tell him you're going to the store to get cigarettes and never come back

I'm not him, but probably. Paladin has a bonus on saving throws anyway and it sounds like it makes things more interesting if you do end up failing the save.

Yimrith, even in giant form, has a fucking dragon horn. Have they see a blue dragon horn before or something. Drop hints that the murder and capture was an inside job.

Blunt weapons are superior. You don't get this kind of bullshit, and you wreck skellies.

>Rolling for initiative already breaks the flow of the game
Only if the DM isn't very good at pacing and keeping the game moving.

Exactly. Sometimes a scene is more complex than "you're not fighting" followed by "you're fighting." Initiative draws an artificial line that ruins a lot of narratives.
I even wrote a paper on that shit in college. Good times.

Then you still lose narrative power, because there's still a clear line between "not combat" and "combat." The idea is that action order is determined organically (while still making sure everybody gets a "turn" once things are getting violent for more than a couple of in-game seconds).
Of course, barbarians post-level 7 get a massive advantage - unless there's a very good reason why they shouldn't be first (an undetected sniper fires on the PCs), they typically just go first by default.
You have to wing it most of the time and it requires good judgment and improvisational skills, but the end result is not terribly different from the regular system. But not having that line in the sand does wonders for RP (largely because there's no clear line at the "end of combat," either).

There's really only the problem of a shortage of legendary hammers and mauls. I can't think of anything that only resists blunt damage off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's at least a handful. Maybe some types of elementals?

Not off the top of my head....
I know Skeletons are vulnerable to em...
Ochre jellies like you said can split from the hit of a slashing weapon...
Some plants have resistance to piercing...

Oh, totally. +2 to DEX saves, intiative, and dex skills is better than +1 AC.

If you're alright playing as a medium armor+shield EB turret warlock until 8th then that's the better option. STR 13, DEX 14, CHA 16.

16 DEX start, on the other hand, is stupid. Don't do that. You take a penalty to your wisdom and perception just to be able to competently hit things with a rapier, but it's not actually any better than Eldritch Blasting. The STR path works because you get PAM right away - QS+PAM+Dueling is already optimal for Paladins even without Shillealgh. Rapier on the other hand is outdamaged by EB because you don't have the smite slots available to justify before you switch to Shillelagh as the whole combo comes online.

>My group doesn't even roll initiative

My groups the opposite. I have the whole session in intiative order going around each player and asking them what they do individually.

This is also great as it means there's no.differentiation between combat and roleplay and everybody gets a chance to shine.

He get's shot right there, thanks America.

This is just as bad

Not sure if bad joke or really weird gaming group

No, it's much worse

But I want to put really hard monsters that the PCs need to sneak around or cleverly defeat in front of the PCs.

Then give them an out the first couple of times you do it. The PCs, being people who kill monsters for a living, are naturally going to try to kill the monsters. When they see that the monsters are not going down no matter what, make it possible to run away. That will teach them what kind of campaign they're in, so later on there can be monsters that they can neither fight nor run from and it won't be as unfair because they were warned.

> You take a penalty to your wisdom and perception just to be able to competently hit things with a rapier
a -1 to these for +1 initiative seems like a fair trade, since paladin will more than make up for a -1 to saves

Is it possible to fool zombies to be one of theirs just by looking like one through make-up or a magical effect?
Could I just make myself look like a zombie and then shamble past wild, uncontrolled zombies undisturbed?

>really weird gaming group

Nope I just found this method solved multiple issues I was facing in game.

>That guy/power gamers not doing anything unless they absolutely had to to avoid danger.
>That guy/power gamers not bothering in RP scenes
>Shy players not participating
>Certain players hogging the limelight in scenes /instigating pointless shit too often

I don't have players roll intiative at the start of the session or anything, stats shouldn't determine this order IMO I actually just choose one player randomly and go round in order for the entire session from that

So describe scene
>Ranger what are you doing
>Resolve action
>Fighter what are you doing
>Resolve action
>Wizard what are you doing
>Resolve action
>Back to Ranger what are you doing?
>Resolve action

Etc...

If combat does happen I'll just roll monsters into the order as natural as possible

So

>Ranger what are you doing?
>Resolve action
>Goblins attack Barb
>barbarian what do you do?

This equally applies to other scenes too.

So

>Noble greets you
>Ranger what do you say?
>Noble responds
>Barbarian what are you saying/doing?
>Noble responds
>Etc

I'd go strength. You only need 2 more strength than your required strength to wear plate armour and stacking AC works better when you have a shield, as AC matters more to people with more armour.

Sure, dex would be better, but you NEED 13 strength.

No, initiative is too random for a +1 to be a consideration.

Wisdom saves, on the other hand, can never be too high.

Much, much worse.

I would disallow it. Since DnD zombies are magic in origin, I assume that the magic gives them an innate sense of what is living or not, so you can't try doing a Shaun of the Dead to fool them.

I'm new to 5e, what is PAM QS Dueling? Polearm master dueling fighting style with a quarter staff?

Yep. For some reason a staff counts as a polearm when a spear doesn't, and somehow you can wield a staff in one hand with a shield effectively

The same people that are okay with this pile of nonsense have issues with mystic or crossbow master letting you fight with a rapier and hand crossbow without penalty because they're not realistic or too anime

Weird, and would feel really unnatural during social situations to me, but hey, whatever works for your group. (It's still weird, but you do you)

If the zombies are Last of Us zombies, I'd rule that they use special pheromones for identification, not sight. So you could smear your body in zombie guts to fool them. Whether that has a chance to infect you is up to the DM.