Magic armor

It's the same shit in 5e, it's just that it's subtle enough for most people not to understand all the shit you can stack.
>mfw I can stack mage armor, shield, blink, and mirror image while the martials can't even trip people more than a few times per day because they ran out of superiority dice.

>Stack up spells that last 10 minutes each
>Out of spells for the day
>Go through dungeon and be really useful for 10 minutes
>Get to boss
>No spell slots left
>Try to cantrip and whack boss with a staff, best I can do
These things have a way of balancing themselves out

And yet for that 10 minutes you are way cooler than the fighter will ever be.

>Mage Armor
>Lasts 8 hours

>Shield
>Can be used as a reaction as you're being attacked.

>Blink/Mirror Image
>Lasts 1 minute, which is more than enough when most combat ends in 3-5 turns on average.
>During which, you are either immune to all physical damage or you just make a clone to take the hit for you.

>Meanwhile, Fighter runs out of steam after a few rolls and needs to spend an hour getting his superiority dice back.
>All so he can do amazing feats such as *gasp* tripping a dude or *gasp* adding a little extra damage to their attack roll.

But sure, everything balances out when you're shit at math, so shine on you crazy diamond.

They can still y'know, attack when they don't have superiority dice.

Well the mage can still y'know, use cantrips when they don't have spell slots.

>Implying a single cantrip can equal a round of attacks from a Fighter or a Barb

>Implying a single attack can equal the versatility of cantrips from a Wizard or Druid.

>Implying that any negligible effect of a cantrip can adversely impact a Fighter/Barb with decent stats

>Implying most of the effects for a cantrip are "negligible"
Chill Touch for example is a cantrip, with a range of 120 ft, that makes it so the victim cannot regain HP until the mage's next turn, in addition to taking 1d8 necrotic damage.

Minor Illusion allows you to create either a sound or an image within a 5ft. cube and can only be dispelled if you interact with it and pass an investigation check vs. the mage's spell DC to dispel it.

Shilelegh can turn a mundane weapon into a magical one, which is useful for campaigns with a shitload of creatures with resistance to mundane weapons (such as vampire spawn from Curse of Strahd).

Among other effects.

Meanwhile, you deal what, 1dX+STR/DEX on a successful swing?

I won't shit on Shilelegh because that IS an amazing spell, but-

Ignore the Minor Illusion. Literally, run past that shit.

Chill Touch is contingent on if you actually land a spell attack. (A BIG if, especially to an appropriately geared martial.) Plus, honestly, 1d8? Really? Laughable even for the moron who decided to use CON as a dump stat.

Multiple attacks along with the STR prerequisites for shoving, grappling, and promptly stuffing a sock in said pasty-mage's mouth to prevent further spellcasting isn't out of the question, especially for fighters.

>Ignore the Minor Illusion.
Not without a save you won't. That's also assuming you know that it's an illusion at all (a mighty big if considering martials generally dump INT).
>Chill Touch is contingent on if you actually land a spell attack. (A BIG if, especially to an appropriately geared martial.)
You say that as if there aren't spells that grant advantage (Shocking Grasp) or spells that will always hit you (Magic Missile).

Not to mention, the martial will have to get into melee to use those tricks, while the bulk of my cantrips can be cast from 120 ft. away, which will take your average Fighter at least 2 turns to reach, if he spends both those turns running.

Very low effort here. I was more impressed when someone actually had the balls to make Martial vs. Caster a General. That, quite frankly, was amazing. Even worse, very little creativity was put into this thread, while most of the previous examples have a short anecdote, this is just a lazy gathering of phrases. Either you're a pale imitation of the person who makes these threads, or you're running out of material. This is a sign you should move on to a different topic, or quit while you're ahead.

1.5/10, expected more, got less.

Because humans like that are putting limits on how much they an grow, rely on magic for everything and you will never push yourself, humanity is about challenge and through challenge we grow

Just play 4e faggots. This problem was already resolved and then Wizards of the Cucks went back to sucking casters off because they realized that you revolting fucking neckbeards are 95% of their playerbase

Conjuring up an image of a snake doesn't necessitate a Fighter stopping in his tracks. He can swerve to avoid it, or simply ignore it entirely. Conjuring up a daisy wont force him to stop and inspect it, even if he cant distinguish an illusion of a daisy from an actual one.

And you're joking if a few paltry magic missiles will do anything to a Fighter/Barb with decent CON. Hell, even Firebolt at level 17 only deals a 4d10, and that's a Spent Spellcaster's action for the round.

Fighters at level 17 get 3 attacks and a bonus action- more if they choose to Surge, which also grants them an action they can spend to Dash. Barbs have unarmored movement, enabling them to close the gap even further, not to mention, Mindless Rage.

Even at higher levels, a Spent Martial could wipe the floor with a Spent Mage, easily.

Adding all your spells is a different story- Planeshift, Wish, and other such are obviously very clear advantages at higher levels, but cantrips alone? A Spent Mage surviving would have to rely on either dumb luck or an exceeding amount of circumstantial assumptions (that he happens to be 120 feet away, even though most battle grids do not tend to be that big, that his spell attack lands, and that the Martial opts not to just run past the damn illusion he plops down), on top of negligible dps compared to a round of normal attacks from ANY martial class make Spellcasters only viable as true combatants if they keep their spellslots (with the exception of the Warlock.)

Entire dungeons in the games I play last for less than 10 minutes. Short rests happen maybe once in an entire year long campaign.

>Entire dungeons in the games I play last for less than 10 minutes. Short rests happen maybe once in an entire year long campaign.
>my game works like this
>assumes everyone else's does too
>ignores the reality that some DMs prefer longer dungeons or arduous treks where safe rests arent even a thing and resource depletion is common

To be fair though the advantage actually isn't nearly what it should be.

The problem is that caster versatility is far too great for the effectiveness they also bring. Our table has remedied this somewhat by buffing the martial classes quite a bit(extra ASIs and feats always skew the favor towards martials, 3 attacks for all classes by lvl 16, fighter gets 4, etc.)

I think the real problem however is the fact that 5e has bounded accuracy. this makes spells way too useful. The accuracy gained to attacks pales in comparison to stacking stupid bullshit like mage armor, shield, etc. Also the saves for casters get much better however martials never really get a scaling bonus to their saving throws. That whole "proficient in two saves" thing is horseshit. It really cucks 'em hard to the point where theoretically a lvl 0 commoner could succeed a save just as easily as a lvl 20 barbarian, fighter, or rogue on his dump stat. It gets ridiculous.

mucnhkins can break the game with full-casters
like wish-simulacrum, although that relies on DM fiat not messing it up

and they have a significant advantage in out of combat utility

but in terms of Damage per round, martials can keep up quite well

a level 5 fighter using action surge with a +4 bonus to STR can get about 48 damage in with 24 damage in every succeeding turn

a level 5 wizard can start with fireball dealing 28 damage on his first two turns turn, 21 damage with scorching ray on his next 3 turns, and 10 damage with burning hands for then ext 4 turns after that

so the wizard can sweep rooms better, and can forgo the damage for utility out of combat, while the fighter is more reliable, does need to sacrifice combat capability to improve defence, and has more sustainability

Listen man, you can't have it both ways.

At low levels, a spent martial will die in one round because the mage hits him with chill touch (locking them out of health restoring abilities like second wind) while pelting him with shit like magic missile. Even if we're talking 20 CON and max HP, that's still only 15/17 HP, which can theorhetically be dealt with if the caster rolls above average on his damage dice.

At higher levels, the mage is stacking defensive shit (as I mentioned earlier ITT) on top of spells that will outright negate any attack that the martial could deal. Throwing 3 attacks per turn doesn't really matter when all your ranged attacks are being shat on by wind wall or the enemy is safely flying out of reach of your weapons's range.

No matter which level you're talking about though, the divide will still be present because the point was that mages are vastly more versatile than martials.

>Entire dungeons in the games I play last for less than 10 minutes

The problem here isn't that 5e caster is unbalanced, it's that you have a shitty DM that isn't willing/able to put in the effort and creativity to engage his party properly.

Casters are all about resource management. You have X spell slots that let you do things and you should go up against >X challenges. That way you know sometimes you don't have your best spells available to solve everything, and sometimes you have to choose less optimal spells to help solve a problem. Meanwhile martials are a relative flatline of ability. And are more consistent than casters.

>Short rests happen maybe once in an entire year long campaign.
This just sounds again like shitty DMing. Your party either isn't being put against a proper challenge rating, or your DM is way too easy on when you can long rest. You shouldn't be able to long rest all the time, and sometimes when you are, you should be interrupted, forcing fights at weaker resource levels.

>YOU HAVE BEEN WAYLAID BY ENEMIES AND MUST DEFEND YOURSELF

Mage armor isn't some amazing buff that lets you break the game in twain. You're burning a first level spell slot to get decent AC for the rest of the adventuring day. Shield also costs a 1st level spell slot. Mirror Image is a second level slot. You're not outshining the fucking fighter in melee just because you're wasting resources to not get killed

mage armor gets you 13 + DEX AC
if you have 14 DEX you get 15 AC

a level 5 wizard (with +1 CON) would have about 27HP
a level 5 fighter would have about (with +3 CON) would have about 49 HP

a level 5 fighter would have 18 AC from plate to 15 AC of a wizard with mage armor

Oh I wasn't questioning the versatility of the Spellcasters in later levels, oh no. But I DID feel a bit inclined to respond precisely because the comparison was being drawn that a Spent Mage (that is, lacking in spell slots and forced to rely on cantrips) would effectively be a match for a Spent Martial. THAT'S the point I was trying to make.

DnD isnt an individual-based system. There's a greater emphasis on teamwork in this system- and so while a Spent Mage may be able to clear rooms so long as they've got spell slots, the strength of the Martials is their consistent damage output and their capacity to endure and take a hit. That's all.

The only point of contention I wished to contest was that a Spent, cantrip-reliant mage could reliably take down a Spent Martial, which simply isn't true in most cases.

>You're burning a first level spell slot to get decent AC for the rest of the adventuring day.
No, I'm spending a first level slot to gain the same benefits as a dude who spent the bulk of his money on a chain shirt and shield is a spell that I can pop on the off chance that my opponent actually manages to hit me that lasts until the end of my turn.

If I invest 14 DEX into my mage, that's a dude who has 20 AC as early as level 1, on top of the benefits that shit like mirror image or blink or other defensive spells provide as well.

Don't forget shield, which adds a +5 AC bonus on top of mage armor which can be used as a reaction to an attack.

A dex fighter with studded leather, by that point, would have at least that AC and more if he used his first ASI on dex

>If I invest 14 DEX into my mage, that's a dude who has 20 AC as early as level 1,
Mage armor is AC= 13+Dex mod
so 14 DEX is 15 AC, which is pretty moderate.
So at low levels it comes at the cost of burning one of your precious few spell slots. And at high levels it comes at the cost of you not being able to wear other better, magical armor.

At later levels, the level 17 mage will have so many spell slots with so many options for spells that the average martial will be dead long before they manage to even touch the mage.

Maybe I wasn't clear but the comparison was being made with both classes being at lower level since neither one will have many resources and the chance of being spent increases dramatically.

At low levels, where it's a single attack vs. a single cantrip, the cantrip is going to win simply because of all the options that they offer compared to the straight damage of an attack roll.

But at the end of the day, nobody ever doubted that martials can deal damage.

Because Dispel Magic.

That's... that's actually in character. Bravo to you, sir.

>Mage armor is AC= 13+Dex mod
>so 14 DEX is 15 AC, which is pretty moderate.
Don't forget, Shield adds +5 AC as well as a reaction.
>And at high levels it comes at the cost of you not being able to wear other better, magical armor.
Why would a wizard wear magic armor when he can wear enchanted robes instead?

firebolt 1d10 vs greatswords 2d6 + STR mod
at level 5 2d10 vs 2 attacks at 2d6 + STR

against many small enemies, more attacks is preferable to a single stronger attack as well

>If I invest 14 DEX into my mage, that's a dude who has 20 AC as early as level 1
20 AC until your next turn, assuming you burn a 1st level slot, 15 AC otherwise at the cost of another 1st level slot. With that user's 5th level example, you start with 4/3/2 slots, and are left with 2/2/2 if you use Mage Armor, Shield and mirror Mirror Image in the same long rest period. Realistically you would only use Mage Armor and Shield, but realistically you would also be expected to do shit other than buffing yourself and already spread yourself thin.

This is why 2e masterrace is always the way to go. Did you know 2e had hard and fast rules for random encpunter rates? In a dungeon its 1/10 minutes. Sure, he wizard can end an encounter- once. And once they're high enough level to do it a few times, you want to be exploring deeper and not retreating after every second encounter. In my 2e game im playing a priest, and the final Boss Battle of he opening dungeon was won by holy water and the heroic thief sacrificing himself to light the motherfucker on fire. Despite me researching direct damage spells. (Well, the day was mostly saved by my Silvered Mace, most important item in he game, because i loaned it to the fighter and he rolled a max damage crit,but eh.)

The thing is, even if the cantrips aren't dealing a lot of damage, they'll usually have secondary abilities that work out in your favor if you use the spell correctly.
>Chill touch: 1d8 but also prevents your target from healing, in addition to causing undead to get disadvantage on their next attack.
>Shillelagh: Turns your weapon magical while bumping it damage up to a d8.
>Ray of Frost: 1d8 but also reduces your target's speed to 10 ft. until the start of your next turn.
Among other examples.

Ray of frost reduces your opponent's movement BY 10ft, not TO 10ft

>Ray of frost reduces your opponent's movement BY 10ft, not TO 10ft
Well shit, I need to talk to my DM later on about that then.

Anyways, still useful if you're fighting against something that you'd rather keep at a distance.

...

Ok, martials suck compared to casters

But which caster is the best one? wizard? cleric? druid even?
I'd say wizard, personally. They're more iconic than the rest.

wart

Small minded mortal. Your petty flesh is pathetic and you will never amount to more than just a meat shield for true greatness. Your greatest moment will be to die for your better.

I killed a dragon with magic missile, don't underestimate them

Also you can conjure gold or naked hoes with magical aids

The important thing about 5e is that while a Wizard can use all his spell slots to boost his AC and take damaging spells in an attempt to imitate the fighter, he won't be doing much else with his time. Same case if he wants to spam utility to try and outskill a Rogue.

Compared to 3.5 where some casters outfight fighters by default and replacing a rogue just needs a few wands, and requiring that level of dedication to trying to replace another party member is still a big improvement.

Well I have fighter teams and rogues that kill off casters that are too cocky, and it's not that hard, so I gonna say, that no, it is not dominated by casters.

5e is meme grappler Barbarians and polearm master martials.
That and the Archer memes like Kensai and Battlemaster..

> Not remembering a year after the age of attaining reason
Son, you're probably actually retarded

unless you are a powergaming munchkin, the wizard will not be the end-all be-all of the party, he can be outdamaged often and cant just solo an entire dungeon

he does have more out-of-combat utility, but unless the player is deliberately trying to break the game, the average player wont really get that far

Yet another "casters are better xD" thread.
These cancerous caster players probably just get kicked away from every group they play with for being a douchebag or crying when playing anything that isn't 3.5e.

See, naruto was smart. Every class had magic.