Why does everyone hate it now?

it really isn't

>4e

boy do I love the entire game revolving around combat, and yet waiting nineteen and a half decades for my god damn turn to come around.

That's spinning off topic, but goddamn the college system needs a reform.

I've got the core books for both, so don't try and be pithy with me.

Wait did Veeky Forums use to like it?
The problems were evident from the fucking start in making the skill system that was 3es biggest flaw (3e is my favorite system and even I know the skill point alocation is trash) even fucking worse. among other things I am to tired to remember

>waiting 19 and a half decades for your turn
Have you tried not playing with the mentally challenged? D&D has revolved around combat since its inception.

Also, it beats just having the faggot in a bathrobe cast Sleep and the entire "fight" just being the party wandering around sticking knives into the fallen.

I love their modules and adventure paths but hate the actual rules, way way too crunchy for my groups taste, no one in our party knew the rules off by heart so we always had to stop and look shit up and it broke the flow. thats really my only problem with it there was just way too much shit if they did a pathfinder v2 lite or some shit id probably start again

Just because you don't like the facts doesn't mean they're biased. Go back to your containment general.

No actual weeb is gonna like kitsune in PF because they're a race that defaults to an anthro/furry appearance. That puts off most weebs like it does everyone. Pretty much only furries pick it, and they don't care if it's Japanese-themed or not.

Does it really matter? In terms of the player base quality?

This, basically.
If you bother to listen to the system war trolls, you'll start to think Veeky Forums hates every game.

Don't judge Veeky Forums by the worst of us.

They're shapeshifters that can "default" to any form they want... so if weebs wana play their retarded high school fox girl waifus, they're gonna play their retarded high school foxgirl waifus.

>(voice cracking) MY BUILD

Because it's 3.5, but with even worse playerbase. This is pretty bad.
Oh, I've made this. Wish I made a little bit more effort.

Greatest fpbp of all time.

Because it's a bloated mess and because the creators are pandering retards who care more about pleasing SJWs and shitting out unbalanced splatbooks than creating a consistent setting and a well designed system.

>no new classes for a while after Ultimate combat
>"We don't want to flood the game with too many choices guyz"
>suddenly Advanced Class Guide
>then Occultish Adventures
>then Ultimate Intrigue
>somewhere in there Unchained comes out to (un)fuck up some of the core classes
It's just a clusterfuck at this point.

It's always been shit, and the few people that weren't shit-spewing autists moved to 5E

Because is 3.5 with even more caster supremacy. For fucks sakes martials can't even grapple or trip shit anymore due the CMD powercreep

Man, even in 3.5 you could build good martials (arcane shapechanger ranger, monk/psywar, etc) but all those options didn't translate to PF in where martials are crap

what if your master just select 5 books and that's what you use to build your class?

back when i started the core book plus the first 2 books allowed me to do one gorillion classes without much confusion.

Have you tried playing with a good DM? Good players? Being good yourself?

>takes 3.5 up to eleven and makes it even worse and less bearable
>no coherent and focused game design, just a mix of mismatched ideas from 2 decades ago kept alive by grogs
>blobbing
>shit tier art
>devs openly displaying statements of extreme retardation
>community made up from degenerate autists who do not just need to erp as lesbian kitsunes, but also need to theorycraft silly builds for those
>general theorycrafting/powerbuilding cancer
>competitiveness, gamist elitism, "mastering the system", ivory tower etc.
>default setting that makes forgotten realms seem like a coherent, well designed world

>Don't judge Veeky Forums by the worst of us.
I will when these edition wars threads tend to have 50-100 unique IP's and consistently reaches bump limit more often than not.

>Invite new blood to the hobby

>New blood are intimidated by horrible and pointless rules

>New blood choose lighter systems

shock and horror.

5e base is basically the normies that decided TTRPGs were cool because it was on an episode of Big Bang Theory and try to play out a character from a TV show, then get annoyed because they didn't read the rules.

PF base is either number crunch fiends or super-animu-please-don't-talk-to-me-about-it-I-don't-care levels of weeb that they smell of "that guy".

Both player bases are autistic as fuck because they believe they have the superior system even though at the end of the day, monster were killed and you (hopefully) played a character that isn't an extension of yourself.

Expectation
>Invite new blood to the hobby
>New blood are intimidated by horrible and pointless rules
>New blood choose lighter systems
Reality
>Invite new blood to the hobby
>New blood wastes hours upon hours of time trying to understand the horrible and pointless rules because it's the only thing people are running
>New blood ends up sticking to one system because they think every game is going to require a similar amount of hours to understand horrible and pointless rules
Sad but true.

>you (hopefully) played a character that isn't an extension of yourself.
Every character is an extension of yourself in some capacity though, it's why so many people have trouble playing high INT/CHA characters.

Nope.

The amount of people I know that went from starting with 5e to GURPs is shockingly high. Their campaigns are even more disjointed than the ones they started with.

>at the end of the day, monster were killed
mfw

>The amount of people I know that went from starting with 5e to GURPs is shockingly high.
Congrats, has nothing to do with reality though, but congrats.

Just play 3.5 with Die Stygian Jackal Rules and ban some spells that solve quests or lower their damage.

Just fixed D&D. Have fun.

>It's another "I just fixed D&D" retard going on about shitty house rules that probably don't even work.

Holy shit rogues and monks suck with those rules

At it's core, it's... good ? It's mostly the mess of unrelated and bad supplements that brings the hate...

Is basically a binary game, if you get hit you die, if you don't you survive one extra turn. Sadly everybody has shit AC, so is a meatgrinder of the highest degree

>core
>good
Only if you play caster.

Rogues and Monks suck shit regardless, so what's the difference?

it was a "meh good", it's just that it works, might not be the best but it does the job at giving a coherent frame to play(and casters are obviously way more fun to play, it's true)

Basically lots of people on forums who didn't really play D&D 3.5 but just engaged in endless white box dpr calculations and whined 'imbalance' that didn't really come up in actual play on forums anyway. Wotc actually took these whingers seriously and designed 4E to resolve the complaints of people who didn't even play D&D.

It was a mess of a system that played out like a tactical miniatures skirmish game , enforced grid combat that took hours to resolve, mmo design mechanics with literal clickable abilities with cooldowns , had no space for roleplay in the midst of endless fight, players had insane power levels from.level 1 and were effectively all self healing wizards and it plainly wasn't D&D. All the players who had actually been enjoying D&D suddenly came out of the woodwork to say that this edition was pure trash.

Pathfinder came and rescued all the players who actually still enjoyed playing D&D and not World of Warcraft the tabletop game by updating 3.5 with a bunch of cool tweaked, streamlining and features.

5E came and wotc actually decided to design it to play out like D&D. It's simple and easy to play and streamlines everything while keeping the game still fundamentally D&D. Unfortunately they'd blown all their budget on 4E so multiple rules are missing with the excuse of 'just homebrew it lol' . Meaning when you want to resolve a bunch of basic stuff like a persuasion check you have to look up the far superior Pathfinder rules but then that doesn't work with the wonky advantage/disadvantage system. So you have to write half the game for them. Still it's better than 4E at least ( not that that's hard )

So Pathfinder still remains the best edition of D&D with 5E is easy mode introduction for new players. Those same white box forum whingers who don't actually play D&D however still like to complain so pretend Pathfinder has a bunch of issues it doesn't in actual play still and the cycle continues.

>and casters are obviously way more fun to play, it's true
THIS!
Martials
>Roll attack each turn until target is dead.
Casters
>Pick from over 100 unique spells to defeat your enemies with arcane might.
I mean, there's a reason why most of the book is dedicated to magic.

So what you say is that those rules don't fix the game...which enters in contradiction with what you said here

>roleplaying game where you can literally do anything you want in game. Options are infinite

>Boring because I don't have a list of things telling me what I can do

>Go back to skyrim

Rifts is the greatest rpg system of all time.

>Options are infinite
And martials among those infinite options can choose 1 or two, because if they choose to do something original they provoke attack of oportunity and fail at whatever they want to do because they don't have the feats needed for that. Is like you didn't even play the game.

Just to add that even if D&D 4E is not D&D, it's actually a really good tabletop game. During some holidays, I played against a friend with warband vs warband type of game (player characters but also monsters and stuff) and it was great and interesting.

Why did anyone not hate it?

>Pushing the "you can do anything" meme
I wish I could slap the shit out of whoever started pushing this shit onto the hobby because it has generated more bullshit than anything else that WotC has produced in the last 10-20 years.

You can't do anything you want, otherwise you could play as a 900 year old kitsune loli sorcerer/dragon disciple in a gritty medieval fantasy campaign without getting a few dirty looks from the rest of the table (assuming they don't kick you on principle).

The reality is that what you can and cannot do has always been determined by both the game and the table, because while some people don't mind describing how a petite fox girl is giving the crusty wizard a handy under the table, other tables might not be nearly as amused by the description.

And if you cannot handle that, let me direct you to where you truly belong

What rules did you use?

>What are combat maneuvers? (a bloo bloo I might get attacked with my huge defences and hit points if I try one without feats to specialise )

>literally hundreds of unique weapons all of which can change how you fight in a combat

>Literally infinite actions you can describe in combat all with unique effects based on the environment, your opponents and your allies.

I'm never going to understand the whole 4e is not D&D thing.

>What are combat maneuvers?
Trap options that noobs and morons invest in until they realize that they can't use them once they start fighting non-humanoid creatures.
>literally hundreds of unique weapons
Yet the bulk of these weapons will never be used because the martial spent most of his feats off of increasing the damage of his base weapon or you'll end up trading it in for a magical weapon that's an improvement in every single way.
>Literally infinite actions you can describe in combat
Yes, because "mother, may I?" is the height of strategy when the mage has options that actually have rules beyond "meh, I'm in a good mood, so you get a +X bonus and the enemy's stunned or whatever, I guess" that actually shape the battlefield for the environment, you opponents, and your allies.

Give it a rest.

>What are combat maneuvers? (a bloo bloo I might get attacked with my huge defences and hit points if I try one without feats to specialise )
No, you might get attacked and you lack the +4 bonus. Even with that measily +4 most creatures are going to say Nope, because their bloated CMD. You didn't play the game.

>literally hundreds of unique weapons all of which can change how you fight in a combat
Exotic all of them.

>Literally infinite actions you can describe in combat all with unique effects based on the environment, your opponents and your allies.
Only if the GM decides to give you such effects because those are nor stated in the rules nor in your class features so you're playing a mother may I game with no back up in the system.

Yep, you don't actually play, it shows. Go back to whatever rules light game you're playing.

>For fucks sakes martials can't even grapple or trip shit anymore due the CMD powercreep
t. cannot play th game (or do math)
We have been over this. You are full of shit.

The developers are even dumber than this poster, tough.

It's because 4e is actually good user.

Don't reply, it's bait.

Well simply the original 4th edition rules for handling combat and some of the first supplements (not that much). We did stuff like 5 vs 5 adventurers of level X and we had a gold budget to buy items. Later we added other things like mercenaries to try a bit more the bestiary. It's not quick to put in motion but it was fun. We also strictly sticked to the rule (no "I try to do this wacky cool thing")

My monk, which gets maneuver bonus feats, can't trip shit at 10th level, only weak ass enemies that actually die of 1 hit making the trip attack a waste. I have Imp Trip and +4 to Str, +2 from Dex (because I have a feat that adds Dex to maneuvers), plus bonus from magic weapon. Please, tell me what am I doing wrong?

>Please, tell me what am I doing wrong?
Playing PF.

4e isn't 3.5

3.5 was so monolithic thanks to the OGL that for most D&D players it represents the end-all-be-all of D&D

Therefore 4e isn't D&D

it's just that the game design is way more different that 2/3/3.5/5 (never played the first, so I don't know), and is way more focused on giving a strict frame to play within rather than a more or less opened one.

>We did stuff like 5 vs 5 adventurers of level X and we had a gold budget to buy items.

At what levels?

Sound like the setup time is a bitch, especially using the books instead of the character builder/without simple essentials stuff.

Also, imbalanced as fuck if you don't put some sort of limit on dailies... and even then, optimized characters are easily capable of oneshotting each-other.

But so was Basic, and so was 2e. Well, Basic, 2e, and 4th were the only editions I've actually played so I can't really say anything about 3.PF or 5th so they might be good to.

4e has the best rules for supporting improvised actions.

There was a time when it wasn't?

I hated it the moment I tried it, I was promised 3.5 but with the stupid fixed, I got 3.5 with the stupid moved around and more stupid added, I have never been so disappointed by an RPG before or since

I remember the week that image was made. user was not cherry-picking; those were really all the most recent OP images at the time.

i bought it when i started getting into RPGS simply because i heard 4e dnd was so bad butr i'm not buying another set of books

>Playing monk
If you want to do maneuvers play fighter or barbarian, monk is not for that.

[citation needed]

Seriously, 4e was the edition that most discouraged improvised actions because they weren't the designated powers on your hotbar.

What's your total CMB bonus at lvl 10th?

You liar

It has the best rules for not actively discouraging improvised actions, that's not the same thing as encouraging improvised actions

DMG pg42 good enough citation for you?

3.x ties your improvised actions to shit like combat maneuvers and skill checks with stupidly high DCs that are set up to fail, and when you fail you get punished for trying.

Sometimes even before it.

Other editions tell the DM to just wing it.

4e actually has good DM advice with rules support for using improvised actions, giving you a handy table and a list of effects.

>Seriously, 4e was the edition that most discouraged improvised actions because they weren't the designated powers on your hotbar.

I add it to the "hotbar" with an "improvise an action! The DM will love you for it!" power card.

That's fair, I guess. I usually play with inherent bonuses and step it up a bit from what the table recommends, which makes them a pretty ok alternative, but taking them at face value does make improvised actions a lot weaker.

7 from BaB
5 from Str (actual str + magic enhacement)
2 from Dex
2 from feat
1 from AoMF
Total : 17

But it's always just about five people bumping the thread, thirty people telling them they're idiots, and twenty newfags.

And, these threads really don't compare to the threads that actually just want to discuss the games, like the generals.

Don't judge us by the worst of us.

>+2/-2 for favorable/unfavorable circumstances (like in 3E)
>roll a skill check that fits (like in AD&D or 3E)
>the rest of the page is dedicated to how much damage it does

"Improvised actions" shouldn't predominantly be "more ways to harm people".

Plus the other rules go way back. Check out Moldvay B60, the sections:
>"That's not in the rules!"
and
>"There's always a chance."

Much more flexible rules and advice for improvised actions.

I started taking a serious interest in running Pathfinder, but all the SJW shit seriously turned me off. I realize it's practically a meme, but I'm not even joking.

You can't even throw a stone without tripping over muh diversity, and by all accounts, Starfinder will be even worse.

I may give 5e a lot of shit and I may actually prefer a lot of what Pathfinder tries to do (I do, in fact, enjoy granularity when it comes to mechanical-narrative interactions and an overwhelming amount of options when it comes to representing your character in a mechanical sense) but at least WotC doesn't seem to be playing the cultural war game as hard.

>I can't troll the /4eg/ anymore
>instead I'll try to start edition wars in other threads!

>Adds dex AND Str to CMB
I don't recognize that feat, is it paizo's?

>And, these threads really don't compare to the threads that actually just want to discuss the games, like the generals.
You're not really helping your case pal.

If it doesn't do damage then just use the DC. If it's not something you intend on rolling for, let 'em have it for free. It's not hard if you aren't a dribbling mongo.

I just joined a PF group and I had the most enjoyable session in a good while.

I would not recommend PF to anyone because I'm spending days optimizing my character, reading through literally hundreds of feats and traits, spread over a dozen books without looking at 3rd party content.

>still garbage by virtue of being a D20 derivative
Are there any d100/d% games of the high fantasy kind with massive amounts of options á la 3.5/PF?

I've always preferred WFRP2, Call of Cthulhu/Delta Green, Eclipse Phase, etc.

I just want to scratch a kill-the-dragon/save-the-princess android Paladin riding an enlarged corgi itch that I've had for a while. But the only options I really see are DnD, DnD, DnD, DnD and Pathfinder.

Everything else seems tragically archaic, hodge-podge, have the production value of a Bic Mac, or just plain bad.

You seem to not understand the "hotbar" complaint. Much like 3.X punished you for trying something without having the right feat for it, 4e characters are completely dependent on their powers. When you're doing anything that isn't a power written on your character sheet, you're somewhere between weaker and completely useless. 4e did try to describe how to adjudicate improvised actions, but it was completely oblivious to the built-in systemic reasons why nobody will use them.

RuneQuest?

Mythras Classic Fantasy

It's so weird that PF players seem to treat accepting all 3rd party content as the default. Like, /pfg/ actually tells people that they have to specify if third-party content is NOT allowed. As though they didn't have enough mountains of splat already.

No, it was something I begged my DM for because I saw it in a 3.pp stuff. Our game started with 20 point buy and I couldn't afford 13 Int so I can't pick the Greater Trip feat so to compensate I begger my GM to add Dex, I still can't trip shit worth tripping and not only because they're 2 size categories bigger ( have ki throw that for 2 ki points allows me to trip huge creatuers, 3 ki points for gargantuan and 4 for colossal)

>Because it's 3.5, but with even worse playerbase.
It's pretty fucking bad. The /pfg/ is pretty fucking horrid. I kinda want to play Pathfinder, but the player base ruins it for me. The general is 75% trash, 10% unrelated and perhaps 15% that's relevant to the actual game, discussing issues and ideas and rules. Questions routinely gets just flat-out ignored, because people are too busy namefagging and talking about having sex with the latest application character for some game nobody gives a shit about.

>4e did try to describe how to adjudicate improvised actions, but it was completely oblivious to the built-in systemic reasons why nobody will use them.

4e describes how it's supposed to work, and if you use inherent bonuses+adjust for optimization level, it does.

It doesn't work as well out of the box as the parts of the system that got more focus, but it's nowhere near useless; not to the degree it is in 3.x or 5e anyway.

The 3rd party stuff is usually more mechanically sound than anything Paizo puts out.

This, everytime I have a doubt with the rules it gets ignored for several threads even when I spam it every 4 hours

Because 1pp is trash if you play martials or anything that isn't wizard, druid, cleric and arcanist. 3pp has options for those who don't want to be full casters.