What is with "Stealth" Kill Bullshit in RPG's?

I've seen it in most systems, where's the wonky nonsense revolving around stealth kills and missile weapons. Why does this exist? People having just never handled either bows or crossbows meant for killing people and not deer hunting?

Bows and Crossbows are fucking loud. They aren't silent. They may not be as loud as a gunshot but you're sure as shit going to hear them snap when they release their bolt. And then there's noise from the target as well. Bows and crossbows do not kill people instantly and silence them unless you pull off what some absurd bullshit like shooting the dude through the eyeball and severing the brainstem. Even if it's a mortal wound to the heart the guy is still going to be screaming his lungs out and alerting everybody within a mile of your presence because humans do not just fall down unconscious when you shoot them. Certainly not with a gun. They writhe on the ground, bleed everywhere, and tend to scream an awful lot. Even if it's just a couple seconds until they pass out from bloodloss due to a severed artery, it's going to be lout enough that your stealth-check should auto-fail.

The only silent way to kill a person is with a thin, sharp knife inserted either through the throat and ripped outwards, or thrust multiple times in the back while you smother 'em. Otherwise they're going to scream because they're dying and humans do not die in polite silence.

>being this autistic
Throat shots exist bruh. Also with an actual firearm emptying most of your target's skull across the wall tends to leave them unable to do much of anything, let alone scream and thrash about.
I'm sorry fun clashes with your 'tism.

Because it's fantasy.
You seem to be in the wrong hobby.

I'll take "Systems intended to model fantasy fiction and not real combat" for $200, Alex.

Humans can still function and scream with only half a head user, and a throat shot only disables the ability to yelp if it destroys the windpipe. Otherwise they will scream and your cover is blown. And bows/crossbows don't completely annihilate a human skull and brain like bullets either, so there should certainly be enough left for them to writhe like a dying fish.

The only "ism" here is realism. And in reality it's fucking hard to kill a person and they don't die clean or quietly unless you specifically disable the centers responsible for screaming. Shooting a guy in the chest or even the head with a bow isn't going to be a silent kill, and your rogue should be immediately detected by any other enemies nearby.

I mentioned headshots specifically in the context of firearms, tardo.
>it's possible to scream while parts of the brain responsible for such an action are puree on the ground
Oh wait you're trolling. Ha ha, enjoy your (you)

Fantasy does excuse this at all. They are still using bolts and arrows, and for any preservation of suspension of disbelief the mechanics of how those things work should not be broken. Stealth is hard and a good GM should make his players work for it by getting up and close in very risky situations instead of just some bullshit "I shot him with my very loud crossbow that can somehow drop a human with one shot and did so without making a noise".

Agreed. Fantasy is not the defining element here. What they mean is 'pulp'. If they prefer pulp then that's fine, but they shouldn't pretend that fantasy has to be pulpy.

>Oh wait you're trolling. Ha ha, enjoy your (you)
You need to hit the specific part of the brain responsible for said action dumbass. Meanwhile back in reality you can in fact only have half your brain and still live/speak.

Did you mean /v/ - Video Games? Because stealth archer isn't really a thing in Veeky Forums. As close as it gets is D&D 5e's Rogues can get sneak attacks with them pretty easy now but that is not the same as a silent kill.

Check out "I know just enough to prove I'm an idiot" over here.

>he doesn't know about string silencers
>he doesn't know about limb dampeners
>he doesn't know about string stoppers
>he doesn't know about bow fleecing

Hi, user. You've never hunted with a bow, how would you know how to fight with one?

>things never used on pre-modern warbows with medieval technology

Case in point.

>being this wrong on the internet
I have a self bow I made myself using only traditional materials and tools. My string silencer is made of rabbit fur. My bow is fleeced with rabbit fur to minimize friction.

Obviously a bow made this way doesn't have (or really need) string stoppers or limp dampeners or limb extensions, but I have seen a composite bow with crude dampeners and a string stopper.

Would you like to shut the fuck up now?

>firearm
it's going to be pretty loud, even with a suppressor and subsonics >implying anybody bothers with alternate ammunition.
really, the possibility of a scream is the last thing you need to worry about with a gun

>it's possible to scream while parts of the brain responsible for such an action are puree on the ground
you'd be surprised

Don't forget about thrown weapons. No firing sound, but I don't know shit about if they'd do enough damage to prevent a scream.

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>not just crafting a Silent Bow and Owlwing Arrows of Silent Impact
Do you even stealth

The correct response.

What are you even talking about, OP? I don't see this very often at all.

Even the silent throat shot in movies tends to alert people simply because of the tempo change.

Nah dude. "You can ask an audience to believe the impossible, but not the improbable." We have no experience with magic or monsters, so it's up to the author/dm to explain how those things work. But when the author explains something we have experience with, and does it wrong, it's harder to believe, because we know that's not how it works. Example: Lucy, the Scarlett Johannson movie where she gets her powers from using 100% of her brain, while the rest of us only use 10%. Nobody would have complained about the movie if she got the powers from magic, or some fantasy science experiment, but the explanation was bullshit so people hated it.

How about the fact that your character is often extremely proficient at everything from various combat skills to physical endurance and strength? Why does this exist?

Like any other human being, it should be required that you spend countless days with a specific diet and intense training regime for at least a few years before being able to get into any actual combat. And what's with this whole "respawn" thing? Humans dont come back from the dead upon dying. Man, days these games are so unrealistic.

Sir Christopher Lee would like to have words with you on the subject of lung shots.

Why can't using a bow result in a stealth kill?

Yea, I can see that. A lot of those things are to keep the narrative going, though - needing to eat and shit are just time-wasters unless they're there to make something happen. And it's not really an adventure when the party of chosen ones die to the first trap because the thief's knowledge of traps doesn't extend to ancient tombs, or whatever.

So in the end, including silent kills comes down to whether it makes the narrative/gameplay more interesting or less. It's not good for the narrative if a silent kill on a guard prevents the party from getting captured and thus meeting the big bad for the first time. Also

>days these games

silencers work at range, where it's just a weird pop sound. Anyone within 20~ feet will probably be able to recognise it, but that's also the range where a body falling to the floor makes a really recognisable sound, so... Silencers aren't about being a ninja, they're about keeping a low profile.

While I agree with you on bows, a crossbow can be an excellent assassination weapon.

It just won't be a good stealth weapon.

>have to kill noble
>wait for noble to go on a hunt
>load crossbow
>hide in the forest
>noble passes by
>kill noble with crossbow
>dispatch his bodyguards in melee with your partymembers

Sure, they've heard you release the bolt, but they never saw it coming.

Also, it really doesn't matter what you kill people with. You can stealthily kill someone with a fucking greatsword, as long as you catch their body/head when they begin to drop.

Bows TWANG when the string slams back into position.

I'm glad to see someonr pointed out garrotes and silent kill techniques before me. Assassination has been a problem in every era because it is surprisingly easy to stun and then kill people.

Yeah but if they die once you release the arrow, whats the prob?

That's tricky. Here's the problem. No matter how good you are with throwing knives, there's always a chance you'll end up with a throwing HANDLE instead of a throwing knive.
Same goes for throwing axes.

Now javelins and wardarts... that's some good shit.

You'll still have the THUDD from the impact. Especially if the opponent wears some mail or something. And if the opponent wears some plate, you'll just get a CLANK WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT? because by the time you can throw javelins through metal plates, you might as well just rip a 200 year oak out of the ground and throw it at the assassination target.

Yeah, but that's just assassination. Not really stealth.
As here.

>>have to kill noble
>>wait for noble to go on a hunt
>>load crossbow
>>hide in the forest
>>noble passes by
>>kill noble with crossbow
>>dispatch his bodyguards in melee with your partymembers

someone's been watching Berserk

in 5e, dont you break stealth as soon as you shoot?

that illustration always weirds me out, because it's physically impossible. look at his hand. he reverses his grip like 3 times for 0 reason.

Oh, sneak up behind them, THEN stab them with the knife.

I get it now.

Same with 4e. There IS a rogue that can do stealth sniping but they need to re-stealth between each shot (In fact, that's their subclass advantage. They can hide as a free action if they end their turn outside of vision).

So while they may not know where the rogue is at any given point they are fully aware that they are being sniped at.

the problem being, what if there is more than one guy? 1. others hear the bow. 2. others probably hear dude's death rattle. suddenly they know enemies are about and from the twang, have a pretty good idea where the enemies are

but no one killed bodyguards in that instance. griffith got shot, assassin ran while body guards closed ranks.

but didnt the assassin shoot and run all before anyone had seen him? griffith figured out who'd done it post facto.

That assumes plated targets, what about modern standards issues, especially helmets lacking face covers?

Or you could just puncture a lung.

You aint screaming with a punctured lung, nigga.

Weird ass breton nigga
Look at those freaky fingers

It's so they can do stealth archery better.

>Anyone within 20~ feet will probably be able to recognise it
Try 200 at the minimum. Silencers don't work like they do in the movies.

Ok now this is just silly

I'm sorry, is this a military manual or a guide for stupid WWE finishers?

He kicks him in the groin in the last step. The shock incapacitates him allowing you to stab him to death in whatever way you prefer.

>kill noble with crossbow

Assuming this is D&D your crossbow does D8+Dex damage + maybe your sneak attack bonus of 1d6

The noble is still perfectly fine having only lost at most 19 HP and on average 12 out of a pool of about 50.

People want to be Sam Fisher. Let them.

If you're going to be all autistic about realism all the time then you're probably not going to have any fun.

That shit is all primitive as fuck and there is no reason why it can't exist in your setting with wizards and dragons.

Paired with subsonic ammunition and a weapon with proper sealing, you can actually reduce the noise to little more than just the action cycling, which while still noisy is hard to recognize as a gunshot at all.

This. There's footage of the old De Lisle carbine and its firing sound is far quieter than the actual bolt action.

They even make modern repros, and the performance in terms of sound profile is astonishing.
In an area with even moderate background noise you'd have excellent cover. Lone sentries, or even pairs (with exceptional shooting), would be easy prey.

He doesn't reverse his grip in step 2, he smashes the side of the guy's head with the knife handle and then flips his hand over for the cut.

> Stealth is hard and a good GM should
Alright, ya got me. I thought you were complaining about the genre, but you're just complaining about some GM you've had and didn't like. Nevermind, then.

What is "hard" is dictated by your GM, buddy. That's when the dice come out to see if you succeed or not.
> your stealth-check should auto-fail
The task, as you see it, is not "hard." It's "impossible."

fucking rekt

The VSS Vintorez is basically that silent too

This feels like pasta, the whole thing about knifes being the only way to kill silently is pretty retarded

You're wrong.
Ghurkas during WW2 favoured using their kukri to either sever the spinal column or chopping down through the top of the skull (when target wasn't wearing helmet) to inflict massive brain trauma.
Other methods of penetrating the brain cavity also exist, such as angling up from under the chin through the soft palette.
If you're not bothered about making a mess, you can thrust a narrow bladed knife through the ribcage (or angle up from below the sternum) piercing the heart and then slashing it to pieces, although this does require you to prevent them calling out while you do it.

Politicians consistently show that people can survive and thrive without any grey matter and without a functional heart., bro.

Oh hello there, i'm just over 4 foot of hardwood and steel tip going straight through our skull at 'steel armour doesn't matter to me' MPH.

what would you like to do?
>scream in pain - [requires alive working brain x1 / you have x0 ]
>alert your comrades - [requires alive working brain x1 /you have x0 ]
>fall down dead

OP's post requires no brain luckily for him.

I think a lot of people are overestimating people screaming. When you get hit with an arrow/throwing spear/crossbow bolt etc, you are probably going to be in severe shock. Especially if you just got hit in the chest or something, you aren't going to be screaming because you aren't feeling pain. You are lying on the ground thinking "holy fuck I just got shot in the chest." And if you're hit in the lungs, which is very likely for a chest shot, you'd just be kinda gurgling. None of this is silent, obviously, but it's quieter than a fight with metal clanging

It's not silent, no, but relatively stealthy. Death rattles are relatively quiet, and there would realistically be a moderate amount of sounds. Birds chirping, wind in the leaves, sounds of a city (cities being very loud) etc. So if it's dark or something, and people are relatively spread out, it's very possible

You're talking about fantasy games.
Nobody cares about realism except you.
Sorry.

>Fantasy does excuse this at all.
Of course it does, by sheer weight of evidence that it does for a number of folks you are not you.
What you MEANT to say is "fantasy does not excuse this at all for me", but unfortunately you're not really important enough or influential enough for anyone to care about your opinion, though most of us are willing to hear it anyway.

>"You can ask an audience to believe the impossible, but not the improbable."
Wrong. Demonstratably so.
You can ask audiences to believe anything at all, especially if they don't know anything about how it really works and it goes against what they've seen or read in movies and media.

>shooting the dude through the eyeball and severing the brainstem
user, I think you should go back to 6th grade biology and check our where the eyes and brain stem are.

Brain death isn't always instant without large-scale destruction of tissue, nerd. An arrow through the skullpan is going to kill eventually, but up until that point you might have seizures, screaming, etc.

Look up Phineas Gage; dude had a railroad spike shot through his fucking skull, and he was able to walk, talk, and fucking explain to his doctor what happened even while a piece of his brain was falling out of his fucking skull. So, no, an arrow through the head isn't going to instantly and stealthily put someone on the ground, dead instantly, quiet and unmoving.

I like how there's no acknowledgement of this and the shitposts just keep on coming.

All of the autists who got shut down literally shut down, reeeeeeeing.

Some of them rebooted and tried to continue their nonsensical argument without acknowledging that the thread was over. Some new ones arrived and engaged.

Autism is a helluva drug.