So i just recently started to gain interest in table top role playing games and i kinda wanna get into dungeons and...

D&D 5e a great way to get into RPGs, with a cheap Starter Set that has a fun adventure which teaches the game well.
It's a fun time and many of the complaints people have with the game are that it's not as complex as they would like it to be, which in many ways is also its greatest strength (especially when it's your first time with RPGs).

The Basic Rules are free and give you the core rules minus many race and class options, but a good bit of those are also in the SRD (the SRD being a free rules reference of selective parts of the game as a way to encourage people to make and sell their own rules supplements and adventures; normally it's not indexed but there are plenty of websites that cross reference them and set them up to be very easy to navigate and use to play the game normally).

There are plenty of other games out there as well which you might enjoy, most of which do other interesting things that make them worth learning as well. I highly encourage you to learn a few different systems and find what works for you and the types of games you want to play. 5e is great for fantasy and swashbuckling adventure--but you could also do modern spy fiction, horror, sci-fi, caped vigilantes, and anything in between with other systems.
It's all about what story you want to play out.

>5E at least is incredibly limited in what settings it can handle
>literally any kind of fantasy

Wow, how limited.

Join a group and find a DM to start playing with, if not then buy the starter set and run some pre-written adventures, pre-written adventures are a newbies best friend.

> How are you having a hard time optimizing in 5E?

I'm relatively new to 5E; I haven't read all the classes in the PHB, so it's a slog just choosing a character concept and class, even before getting into optimization.

5E can't do settings with no or little magic only 3 classes lack magic, 4 if you count the monk, and all of these classes have magical archetypes
5E requires multiple encounters per longrest, don't play 5E if you don't want a game with an emphasis on combat
5E has multiple distinct flavors of caster, bards, warlocks, sorcerers, wizards, clerics, and druids all being distinct in the fluff, with paladins and rangers cribbing off clerics and druids respectively. This means 5E doesn't work for settings that don't have enough magical power sources to differentiate the casters
5E only has rules for a setting with renaissance era tech
I don't see why you think 5E is so versatile, the DMG even admits that 5E is built on a lot of assumptions

>5E can't do settings with no or little magic only 3 classes lack magic, 4 if you count the monk, and all of these classes have magical archetypes

Three classes is two more than you need. You can create ten very different fighters if that was your desire.

>5E requires multiple encounters per longrest, don't play 5E if you don't want a game with an emphasis on combat

There's official variants that change how rests work, if that's your taste.

> This means 5E doesn't work for settings that don't have enough magical power sources to differentiate the casters

That's entirely a fluff concern.

>5E only has rules for a setting with renaissance era tech

Did you miss the rules on how to further adapt those rules?

>I don't see why you think 5E is so versatile

I don't see why you're trying to pretend that there's a type of fantasy that someone couldn't run with the system. It's like you put a lot of effort into your post too.

>Three classes is two more than you need. You can create ten very different fighters if that was your desire
Not really fighters only have three melee options, weapon and shield, twohanding without pikes, and twohanding with pikes, and they also have the option to be a ranged character, stats wise you either max con and then either str or dex, skill selection is also very limited as you only pick two skills and then a background
>There's official variants that change how rests work, if that's your taste.
Even if you extend the time it takes for a long rest you still need to throw enough encounters at the players to drain them of thier resources to balance classes not to mention out of combat mechanics are barebones due to the limited skill system
>That's entirely a fluff concern
True but if you're fluff doesn't allow for certain types of magic you have to remove a lot of classes
>Did you miss the rules on how to further adapt those rules?
Martials are balanced around having access to specific armor and weapons, strength fighter for example wouldn't work without chaimail or plate
>
I don't see why you're trying to pretend that there's a type of fantasy that someone couldn't run with the system. It's like you put a lot of effort into your post too
I am not pretending, I don't even hate 5E but I understand how it functions as a system, ask 5E general, they'll agree with me, it's just that they use 5E for what it's designed for and enjoy that style of game

*Two-handing with reach weapons

>Not really fighters only-
>and some bullshit

I guess that's about as far as you can go. It was a nice try, but I guess you're the kind of guy who goes around hoping to pigeonhole D&D, a game that basically wrote the book on how to be a kitchensink fantasy game designed to be adaptable to an incredible diversity of play groups and styles.

You might have better luck trying to tell people that butter's only for popcorn and sugar's only for tea. Sorry, but if you want more discussion out of me, you're going to have to not fall apart so quickly.

You could at least make a logical argument instead of getting mad

>grand lie about how the system is only good for a fairly specific type of game.
D&D has never been a generic system that was designed to handle all manner of campaigns and I will never understand why D&D fanboys treat this as blasphemy.

It's not a mark against the system to have a clear design philosophy for what you can and cannot do with it, in fact, it shows that the designers had an idea of what they wanted the system to do and built the system around that premise.

It's much better than systems like DW where the mechanics fundamentally oppose one another as PbtA and D&D are both vastly different games that were never meant to be compatible with one another.

But, that's neither here nor there at the moment.

At this point I think he's a troll and I am kicking myself for taking his bait

>logical argument

You first. Sorry, but your post simply doesn't deserve a full rebuttal, because each point is just awkward bullshit, coming from a guy who clearly doesn't understand how to adapt a system to suit his needs, even when the system goes out of its way to provide him with the tools to do so.

I'm sure you want just another opportunity to deliver another heap of bullshit, but your last post only made it clear you're just here to pass out empty arguments and you're perfectly willing to do so no matter how inane they get.

If you need to figure out some way to keep your ego in place, consider yourself an expert on getting people to give up trying to explain things to you. That's some sort of talent, I guess.

I was hoping to avoid calling you a troll, but I can sort of guess I don't need to, since only trolls would bother with still pushing the "have you tried not playing D&D" meme.

Not him but you're in every D&D thread, starting shit, and generally being obnoxious. Do you have nothing better to do than "defend" D&D from the damn dastardly "trolls?"

What do you think you'll accomplish? D&D's already one of the most popular games in America, it doesn't matter what a few anons on Veeky Forums think about it.

Are you this guy? I am the guy he responded to

My issue is largely just that this guy is trying to use bold faced lies about what a system can and can't do, all just because he's scared of people playing the game he doesn't like and liking it.

When the truth is the victim of "system politics", there's really no way to defend these trolls.

You haven't done anything other claiming he's a liar without providing evidence, I'm a fan of 5E but you just come off as an idiot and an ass

I refuted his points, only to get some absolute bullshit in response. You really can't say I didn't try, I just might be quicker at recognizing someone just looking for an argument than you might be.

You basically made a claim, ignored most of the points that the other dude had to say, and then claimed that everything that he said was nonsense just so you wouldn't have to refute what he was trying to say.

If we're being honest, I'd be less likely to play the system knowing that I could be potentially playing with people like you, rather than for the system not being built to allow me to run a High School Romance campaign where everyone is playing characters of varying levels of anime cliche.

But let's be honest here, you're most likely the person making these threads just so you have someone to argue against, it certainly would explain how you're always one of the first people in these threads going on about how the "flaws" of D&D aren't true.

>You really can't say I didn't try
You didn't really try. It only took two posts from the guy and you folded like wet cardboard.

5E is still good if you ignore assholes like him

The fact that I didn't recognize the troll from his first sentence is the sad part.

Also, nice try at damage control on your own part. You got a few replies out of me.

Well Veeky Forums, I think you have successfully scared off another player from RP forever. Good work.

I thought that's what tg is for?

Is it really though? Every other thread I've seen referencing D&D, it's either been horror stories where entire campaigns were sunk because of one guy being a jackass or people like who feverously defends the system as if it's starving for players, while at the same time being one of the larger systems for people to get into.

If this were my first impression of D&D, I'd think that everyone in the community were loons who got off to conflict and play the game just to see how fast it can break just so they have something to talk about, rather than a group of people sitting around, building character to participate in whatever campaign the DM has planned for them to do.

Now, I have my own reasons for liking and disliking D&D as a whole but if given the choice, I'd rather not play it if the alternative is people who are so fanatical that they cannot accept anyone having an opinion that's different from theirs.

As the guy who was arguing against you it's fun to see you falsely claim same-fag

Not always, it's just that we got rid of everything "killing Veeky Forums" and now we have nothing else to complain about.

Wouldn't be surprised if generals ended up getting their own board too.

The community problems can be solved by vetting players or only playing with friends, the system itself while not perfect does a good job at dungeon-delving mid to high fantasy

There's much less bitching about generals than there was for quests, or at least it seems that way, Veeky Forums needs more content creators though

I thought that's what tg is for?

I've been away for awhile. I like to pop in every so often and lurk to see what's happening

As a new fag to tg I am curious, what do you think of current tg?

>The community problems can be solved by vetting players or only playing with friends
The thing is, is it really worth it?

I mean, maybe if D&D did something different or had a rich setting in which to build campaigns off of but taken as a whole, most of the interesting shit is relegated to pre-made campaigns while the generic shit is what's assumed to be the base campaign.

That's my problem with D&D, more so than all the weird rules that make it more and more casual to get into, it's the fact that D&D boasted settings like Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, and Planescape (to name a few) and yet the books ALWAYS focus on the most generic shit possible like Forgotten Realms.

It's wasted potential in its purest form.

I thought that's what tg is for?

I've been away for awhile. I like to pop in every so often and lurk to see what's happening

Idk. It's ok I guess. Notice a lot less elder neck beard postering and more actually talking about games so that's good.

Works for me and I was the guy arguing about how limited 5E was as a system

I'm liking it so far. I prefer shadowrun because I like having the options but playing 5e is like taking a break from all the rule crunch.

Like I said, I just don't see the point in it when the system isn't even interesting.

I could go through the trouble but in the end, I'm just wasting twice the energy for half the returns.

>owo
>what's this

Hey, weren't you trolls supposed to have to wear trips for a week?

It really depends if 5E specific quirks scratchs an itch for you

Aren't you supposed to ask your handler if you can go on the internet?

What do you mean by this?

Don't worry about it.

Ha ha ha, you idiot. Go put your trip on before your curse gets worse.

I get the joke but I don't see the point

Not really. Every awesome idea that I see in 5e ends up not working as I thought it did and I stopped giving a shit because of how wasted the potential is.

>(dis)advantage
>Thought that it was going to be a mechanic to improve descriptions like how stunt dice work in Exalted.
>Ended up being a mechanic that only gets referenced by a handful of abilities and spells and only gets applied if the DM is generous.

>Inspiration
>Thought that it would be a pool of points that work like fate points and allow a character to pull off an exciting victory.
>Ended up being so that you only get one point to spend, it only gives you advantage on a roll, and it can only be given through DM fiat.

>Backgrounds
>Thought that it would work like ShadowRun's (dis)advantage system where you choose a background and gain benefits at the cost of taking on character flaws.
>Ended up being that you automatically get all the benefits as soon as you take it and flaws end up being flavor text.

Shame

Are you seriously going to try to turn this into a meme? It's not even funny, it just makes you look like a moron.

I just wanted to check.
And, you really might as well wear a trip considering how obvious you are.
But hey, don't let it get to you. Its not like you actually are under a curse to shitpost, you just do it naturally.

>And, you really might as well wear a trip considering how obvious you are.
You first.

What thread did you start this in? I seemed to have missed it

Oh shit, I was waiting for you to try to call samefag. I guess this is close enough.
Nah, you're just a retard, and everyone knows you trolls can't see a D&D thread without jumping in ass first.
Shouldn't you be in that "haters and bitches" general?

I was in that thread, he basically called everyone who disagreed with him a troll, sperged out about some curse, some other user posted a meme that was basically "your bullet bounces off my impenetrable shield" and then the two of them argued until the one dude left...I think...and he's been forcing this "troll curse" shit since yesterday.

It's obviously the same guy too, he appears in every D&D thread in order to start random shit with people and I wouldn't be surprised if he's responsible for all the D&D hate threads being posted daily.

>everyone knows you trolls can't see a D&D thread without jumping in ass first.
Which is funny, because in every single D&D thread, there you are, going on about trolls and how D&D "is teh most popular shit since 4evar."

How would you be in every single D&D thread so early every single time they're posted unless you're actually the person making the threads in the first place?

You got caught as a troll, and now you try to pretend it's some other guy who always lurks around for any D&D thread to shit up? C'mon, the logic ain't there. Everyone knows you're just a bitter bitch and hate D&D, so go and make your "STOP PLAYING D&D THREAD" already and quit shitting this one up.

Fun fact:
Don't fall for the starting kit meme
use just the Player's Handbook and google excerpts from the Monster Manual. You can now play the game fully. The Dungeon Master's guide is really just a writing tips book so it's useless in most cases except for a couple cool random tables. Check out the /5e/ general on this board.

>Everyone knows you're just a bitter bitch and hate D&D, so go and make your "STOP PLAYING D&D THREAD" already and quit shitting this one up.
I'm not the one showing up in every D&D related thread going on about how everyone who hates it is a troll and trying to prove how D&D is the most popular shit ever.

You're in every thread, purposefully starting shit, and then pretend that you're not the one causing problems once people get wise?

Isn't that basically what a troll does?

>I wouldn't be surprised if he's responsible for all the D&D hate threads being posted daily.

I'm at least glad you recognize that Veeky Forums is tired of you shitposters, but trying to pass off your mess onto someone else only really works if your mess isn't colored in your agenda and handiwork.

>I'm not the one showing up in every D&D

You claim he is, I claim you are.
What now?

No. 5e is complete shit. I mean, it improves a lot from 3.5, like rolling all your bonuses into one thing (proficiency), and making the action economy / movement rules better. But besides that it's raw crap. All the races give nothing but bonuses to ability scores, and you get twice as many ability score improvements as you used to, but now scores are capped at 20. This is like giving a child a shitload of caffeine then locking him in a cage. The result is jagged and inelegant. The reason ASIs are a +2 now is for instant gratification, because god forbid if you don't have to actually think about what ability score you level up, odd or even. Backgrounds are just an extra step to chargen that adds nothing, and to excuse the fact that you otherwise are stuck only picking skills from your class skill list. Wizards are just as good at to-hit as fighters, hell a wizard with 14 Dex is almost as good at damage as a fighter with 16 or 17 strength at 1st level, since Dex automatically adds to melee damage now. Fighters get better later on with multiple attacks, but they still are outclassed by wizards. Which would be fine if the wizard spells actually did everything. HP bloat is insane, Great Weapon Fighting and Sharpshooter are non-optional feats that you MUST take if you want to deal good damage as a fighter, and ranger and monk are both non-options as classes. Ranger is such shit it's unbelievable. Wizards of the Coast just needs to get over it and delete the class instead of fucking it over every edition except for fourth.

Doesn't the starter kit come with an adventure and premade characters though? That's kind of why it's recommended, because if you have those you can start playing within the hour. It's making characters that takes players the longest to learn how to do, and making adventures is likewise the most time consuming part of being a DM.

>Comes into every thread
>Spouts propaganda about how D&D is great
>Calls anyone who disagrees with you a troll
>Pretends to be "fighting the trolls" when in actuality you're riling them up for (you)'s.
>Derails the thread into pointless arguments
>Forces memes
The funniest part is that you don't think you're actually a troll, nor have your own agenda.

At the same time though, you really shouldn't be running a game unless everyone involved knows how to play.

It just ends up creating issues where you're several campaigns in and nobody knows how to do even the most basic shit, like rolling attack rolls, spending spell slots, or keeping track of resources like superiority dice.

It doesn't take much to figure out when someone's just a system war troll, like you are. Don't take it so personally when people call you out on it.

The joke is you think your damage control is working.
Everyone hates you "D&D is garbage" guys.

Better pro tip, pirate the pdfs

Most of this is completely wrong

Playing the game is one thing, creating characters and adventures is another. I think it's much better for people to get a sense of what characters can do before they try to make some for themselves, because it's really hard to understand how to make a character if you don't really know what their abilities actually do during a game.

Things that sound awesome might just be ribbons, but new players might not realize that.

I disagree but respect your opinion.

>I cant counter his argument so I'll just say he's wrong.

So you deny that ASIs are basically doubled?
Or that stats cap at 20?
Or that ranger is shit?

Don't. Just leave him alone.

Oh, I forgot
>Any point that refutes my own is "damage control"
Oh, but marking everyone who hates D&D and the like as "trolls" isn't damage control, I gotcha senpai.

>keeping track of resources like superiority dice.
Wouldn't blame them, seeing as stupid shit like that shouldn't even be in the game. "Wow nice disarm, Mr. Fighter! Too bad you won't be able to do that until tomorrow!"

Said no one in fiction ever. Fuck D&D.

Leave him alone.

He right but the flaws he pointed out don't ruin the game for me

He's

Really? There are fuck-all for character options, fuck-all for feats, the monster creation is a retarded tautology (CR determines attack bonus which helps determine CR), there are no NPC creation rules, you aren't even supposed to create NPCs with the PC classes because the damage output of them would be so insane they'd wipe out a single character in no time. Character damage output is insane, set up to scale with the retarded levels of hp bloat. It's like 4e but more deceptive, you're still taking long rests and using your "healing surges" (hit dice), fighter is still resource-based because Mearls can't figure out how to make martials good without giving them shit-tarded spell abilities (like superiority dice or second wind), the game is so simplistic that the best damage combos have already been solved, and thanks to D&D's hp bloat, the game is all about damage. Not even combat, just damage. That's all that matters.

No, he's largely wrong, but really, it's best to not try to argue with someone like him.

It's funny how he pissed off both of you

I'm just hoping he doesn't try to bait the guy further. He sounds like his heart is about to give out.

This thread has been a fucking roller coaster

He said that races only gave stat increases which is full of shit. He said that a wizard, with 14 Dex would have better to hit than a fighter with 17 strength, where the only situation when that could happen is with daggers. He said that Dex is added automatically to melee weapons when that only applies to finesse weapons. He said that Two weapon fighter is a must have feat for martials when it literally is only better if you insist on using two handed weapons and not sword and shield. I could go on but phone posting is aids.

Guy #1. Yeah. 5e is limited in what it's well suited for. But as guy #2 has tried to point out to you, that's not terribly difficult to change. Though the further you go from its assumptions the harder that will get.

5e isn't a good pick for no magic fantasy or low magic fantasy. It can do it, but it does it much worse than mythras or gurps.

How would I do that in 5e?
>only fighter and rogue allowed, no magic subclasses.
>hp stops scaling at 5, as does damage, and extra attacks.
>alter equipment list to tech level tastes.

I could bang it out in under an hour.

5e is bad for high power magic fantasy. The sort you get from a high level 3.x campaign.

Its also bad for when you want a fantasy setting where magic works differently. Flexible spontaneous magic, magic is always rituals, etc.

Theyll require a bunch of homebrew.

Whereas I could have just grabbed dresden files, or gurps, or cinematic Unisystem, or whatever, and had a game that matched the kindof setting I wanted.

It's also not good for a setting where you want realistically durable creatures. Fast linear hp scales are what the whole game is designed around. If you want "getting hit with a sword hurts all people about the same if they're unarmored" rather than d&d style super-powered meat points with a flimsy excuse of "its fatigue and stuff, guys, honest" it's also not the system to choose. If I want realistic (or even movie realistic) injuries, instead of jrpg videogame hp, then yeah I could make d&d do it, but it'll take some real doing. Personally I would be inclined to grab one of half a dozen better suited systems if I want to play that.

>Tl;dr:

Guy #1: d&d can absolutely do no magic. It can do more than d&d fiction with minimal changes, especially when you want *less* of stuff. That's easy. It's when you want stuff it lacks, or when a core mechanic is a bad fit for the game you're trying to run, that the system doesn't work out well.

Guy#2: d&d is absolutely not suited for "all fantasy". There's a lot of stuff it can't do without extensive homebrewing, and a lot of stuff it's just very poorly suited for.

And d&d is far from the only fantasy game. If I want to run a song of ice and fire, or conan, not a chance I'll use d&d. I'll grab and use something that can actually do a good job of it without me having to rewrite half the system.

4e is really the best version to start with.

>He said that races only gave stat increases which is full of shit
If we are talking PHb races then yeah.

>only gets applied if the DM is generous
>can only be given through DM fiat
>and flaws end up being flavor text
Bad GMs will never improve if you blame the game instead of their lackluster GMing.

But that's not true at all. Some give feats, or misc. features, or magic, or what have you.

5e is also garbage for any setting where you want playable races who are 10 feet tall or taller as an option.

I think 5e is on par because of ease of use.

Out of the modern editions anyway.

The thing is, it's not inherently bad DMing to deny a player advantage or inspiration since the books pretty much says "give out these things at your discretion."

Also, let's be honest here, a game like D&D doesn't really benefit from a background system (beyond giving lazy players and newbies the ability to shit out a basic backstory in a few rolls) because most of the focus is going to be on combat. There also aren't rules for eventually getting rid of most of those flaws either, so they're just kinda floating in the background collecting dust as you're fighting the 8-10 encounters that the system assumes that you're doing between long rests.

if youre new you probably should try to optimize so much and rather have some fun with nice concepts. Most likely you will put a lot of work in it to find out that you had the totaly wrong focus for your type of gaming.

>I'm running a high-lethality retrofuturistic space survival horror game along the lines of Alien and the first Dead Space, it'll be in GURPS an-
>why arent you running it in DnD?
>well because DnD is a fantasy system designed for a fairly speci-
>DND IS OBJECTIVELY THE BEST SYSTEM FOR THIS, WHY ARE YOU TELLING BOLD FACED LIES ABOUT DND
>well I mean for one dnd is a class based system with a v-
>MAKE EVERYONE FIGHTERS AND TURN ALL THE WEAPONS INTO SCI FI WEAPONS THERE ITS FUCKING DONE
>bu-
>DONT WORRY DND I WONT ABANDON YOU LIKE DADDY DID TO ME

Wow, you really are one butthurt troll.
I like how you even recognize you're just full of shit, and have to leap into hyperbole to try and make a point.