Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner

Aren't the Tullys and/or Freys the laughing stock of Westeros?

Go on...

I know this is offtopic, but didn't it bother anyone how small all the noble houses in Westeros are compared to real world ones? Kill half a dozen people and a house is extinct, while in reality there are more Romanovs than stray dogs in Moscow despite commies shooting every single one they could get their hands on.

The riverlands were a source of supply for Robb's army.

That would be House Baratheon. Then again that's what they get for trying to usurp the throne from Robert's rightful heirs.

I think this should have been the response. Because it reveals that Tywin is gambling the whole stack. Castrley rock is gold dry. The realms a mess. His kids are idiots and he's grasping at his last best chance to win the whole pot.
All those years serving lunatics and sychophants, rebuilding his family's stock. Things have gone pear shaped and hell be damned if taboo and courtesy hinders him any more.
Made for a far more human and relatable character than British hitler who was a bad bad man.
Charles dance still sold this role better than I could have hoped for

A violation of the traditions that bind the social fabric has broader ramifications for future generations.

Like this guy said: But it also undermines the moral social order as well, past just diplomacy it begins to bring into question the basic frame work of their society.

This is why keeping traditions is important, particularly ones about honour and obligation especially among the nobility. Nobility runs on a certain amount of moral currency, and once that currency is expended, revolution begins to take shape.

What's to say? It's how Tywin dies. It's just more clear in the books.

Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold.

War 101. Army marches on stomach.

But otherwise agree. For all the stony calculation Tywin is a desperate man backed into a corner.
This is what people don't see. He's bided his time and influence as long as he can. Perhaps longer than he should have. Inbred grandson starts world war westeros and his got to pull out all the stops if he can salvage this.
This is why varys leads tyrion to kill him. Maybe why he let him be framed in the first place. (Still think olenna is way oversold and theres no way varys wasn't wise to the plot.) Tywin was the only one keeping the whole thing together. But his pride and drive and lack of trust made him a linchpin.
Smartest player, highest stakes. Lost because he thought 1000% he was doing the right thing.

>He outlived all of his rivals.
What did martin meant by this

>House Lannister post-Tywin
>Joffrey dead, Myrcella in Dorne, Tommen is king. They're all at risk of dying.
>Cersei is unwed and unlikely to have anymore children, also surrounded by Tyrells.
>Jaime is disinherited by virtue of being a Kingsguard, even refused the Lordship of Casterly Rock when Tywin practically begged him to take it.
>Tywin's only legitimate heir is the clever dwarf he despised.
>Tyrion will return to Westeros with Daenerys, help her take down his own family, and will probably be gifted Casterly Rock for his service to her.
>Kevan Lannister, the last truly competent Lannister aside from Tyrion, is dead.
>In the end, all of Tywin's work will have been for nothing. His favorite children will be dead or unable to inherit. Tywin's legacy will be the ugly dwarf that killed his mother coming out of the womb and killed his father as he shat his brains out.

Poetic justice. I just hope Casterly Rock is sacked and thoroughly plundered before Tyrion receives it. Tywin deserves nothing less than the biggest insult to his legacy and memory. For the Red Wedding, for the melting down of Ice, for every house he committed himself to wiping out root and stem. For all the vile shit Tywin Lannister has done for his legacy, he deserves nothing less than the complete humiliation that Cersei and Tyrion have brought to House Lannister.

Balon fell off a bridge in the same stupid way as the Danish berserket at Stamford bridge. The demise of the Raiders.
Rob Stark was given a Scotchirish betrayal at a wedding. The end of the Highlander Barbarians.
Geofrey the inbred Bayard of pride and fortune. Pompous and arrogant as any French/English ponce form the 100 years war. The death of the High noble society.
Renley. The idealouge. The sight past the tyranny inherent in feudalism but the ignorance and arrogance of youth. Culled by the family for the betrayal. The birth and end of an alternative.
Stannis outlasted his rivals because he was the best this system can produce. An intelligent and diligent overseer with an immovable sense of right and wrong. It takes him into moral compromise and tyranny, but that's what it would take. Stannis would make a good king. In a feudal system. One with a psuedo-slave based economy hyperceltralised and militant to an extreme degree.
Martin's point is to show us how suck ass and miserable it can be to live in such a system, much less one at war and facing an apocalypse.
Which means to me that since we don't know how his story ends in book, I think Stannis will exist long enough to show us that even the most capable under this system cannot hope to stop what's happening.
To show us that greatness can be terrible. But also that there's also another way

Judging by the Kastarks, some seem to branch off and become their own houses.

It wasn't the only one & Tywin himself gleaned from it somewhat. I guess he used his resources teleporting everyone to defeat Stannis.

Also unbelievably this system has been going on for either 8-2000 years! In a world with psychic trees and some kind of lich/elementals nobody ever got past high level napalm...

Whatever he would have gained fighting a standard campaign in the riverlamds he would have lost the war with the capital and king.
Remember he also could not be certain renly and stannis weren't working together. If stannis was moving on the capital there couldn't have been a battle when they had met. Rob was a young general on a rampage, best move was to flip the table and refocus on the players you were more concerned about.

Are the Tyrells faring any better than the Lannisters?

The worst thing is that it's happened before. Dornish asked Daeron Targaryen to meet under flags of truce for parley and then killed him there. There has literally never been any consequences for the Dornish for what they did.

That's bullshit. I know for a fact that the lords and peasants alike wanted dorne to be eradicated

But nothing happened. That's the point I was trying to make.

Elia Martell and her children were killed.

That had literally nothing to do with what happened to Daeron the Young Dragon, you dumb fucking cunt, and everything to do with Tywin being pissed as hell at the Martells getting Rhaegar as husband for one of theirs, instead of him getting Rhaegar for Cersei.

But also, it helped to wipe the slate clean with the previous ruling dynasty.

>Castrley rock is gold dry.

Is this the same for the book? I've heard that in the book rob managed to flood the mines or something.

...

That depends who is pulling Mace's strings. If Littlefinger and other King's Landing politicians can get their hooks into him, they could force the house to destroy itself.

Tyrells are fucked user. They made their bed with siding with the Lannisters.

The Reach is literally the safest power base on Planetos. Tyrells will be fine.

Because "noble" means "risky and stupid".
It's less risky to kill 12 than 10000 and you have to be pretty stupid fighting your enemies when they are ready if you can do otherwise

I wonder if Euron will invade Tyrell's land, sack it, and burn everything in it.

Explain to me why you still watch the show after Tywin died

I'd rather watch Three Kingdoms.

>Imgur filename

Glad to see you get your shitty humor from reddit. Now piss off.

I stopped after Tywin and Stannis died.
Only good characters and Stannis was ruined out of character in 2 episodes because "muh boltons"

Its a good piece so you fuck off.

It's cringeworthy as fuck. It's like an unfunny retard who wanted to do a funny thing but only watched the show and clinged to the flimsiest and most outward aspects of the houses and then shat that dumb thing out.

Also, censoring the word fuck. How much of a pussy do you have to be.

Did your evil sister trick you to write down the characters that you thought they were going to die and then she made you watch the Red Wedding fully knowing that you loved Rob and what was going to happen to him?

>Stannis is on the Rise in the North
>Daenerys is planning on invading Westeros
>Aegon Blackfyre is Invading the Stormlands with Dornish help
>Euron Greyjoy is Fucking up the Reach as we type this
>The minute Sansa hears what Stannis is doing she would most likely manipulate Robert Arryn to Join in his cause.

Stannis army currently is six thousand. He sends Massey to recruit twenty thousand sellswords. if Sansa can manipulate Robert that would Yield forty-five Thousands of troops.

Stannis army could very well swell up to Seventy-one thousand troops. Is his Victory near?

Just let the Others kill everyone in Westeros already.

No, because unlike you, I read the books before.

I still don't understand why the Red Wedding is such a hot topic among you showniggers considering how sloppy it was portrayed in the show. Rob's downfall was cheapened by him marrying some random bitch for love instead of marrying a noble girl to protect her honor because of his father's teachings, and Cat slitting that girl's throat and then standing still until one guy walks from off-screen to slit her throat. It felt like it was supposed to be a comedy routine.

Whatever you say. I'm eager to see the Others kill everyone in the North and leave no survivors.

I hope the Others kill everyone in the show, but that's never gonna happen because Dumb and Dumber won't be able to masturbate over Cersei and Daenerys anymore.

In the books it's just going to be the Long Night again until the Last Hero and/or Azor Ahai defeat them again.

I always felt like Essos is the laziest thing about the setting both geographically and culturally.

What if the hound is Azor Ahai?

Who is better then a man afraid of flames to bring forth the power of fire?

No, it's gonna be Jon. He has that whole dumb shit "Ice and Fire" thing.

Have the Starks done any favour to any of the remaining potential endgames winners that would allow them to regain the North?

No. It's a show meme and a sure sign of a secondary

...

It would be

But whats that I see on the horizon?

It looks like.. a crowd of 20 men?

Considering that Ned backed Stannis and got killed for him, I would say that yes, he did enough.

By the time it is finished, there won't be a North to be regained.

Isn't the Hound dead?

And then his Son turned around and tried to take over himself like a retard instead of taking his forces to support Stannis like his dad would have wanted

Fuck you Clegane Bowl is coming get hype

Joffrey was right, the king should have a standing army for himself.

To be fair, Stannis scared Catelyn away when she came to ally with him in Robb's behalf because he's an autismo.

>SENDING A WOMAN TO DO THE DIPLOMACY

What a horrible fucking cuck loser Robb is, couldn't even go himself.

>Isn't the Hound dead?
Protip: yes he fucking was.

The Lord of Light is gathering his fire wight warriors.

Unfortunately, the northerners were even worse at diplomacy, and she was trained from childhood for this kind of shit.

>Going for the younger brother when it's all but explicitly stated her Husband supported Stannis.

That's because the older brother was an emotionally withdrawn autist who didn't know the next thing about diplomacy and the younger brother had the bigger army. If she could foresee that a redhead giantess witch would kill the younger brother with shadowbabies she probably would've backed Stannis.

>The Reach is literally the safest power base on Planetos

Nowhere on Westeros is safe when winter comes. Except maybe Dorne.

>Laughing Arab-Spaniards intensify

This is a really good point.. like,stupid "shut my argument right the fuck up" good. If you can't talk it out then every fight becomes an extinction level conflict. 100% kill or be killed. If you can't talk then yeah..you stop trying.

Better to loose a battle and sue for peace then to assume treachery and never try

>Arab-Spaniards

So, Spaniards?

Because they can fight back.

While I agree Tywin does play the game well at several points in the books and throughout the given history, Ned's legacy will outlast Tywin's. Ned is murdered early on whereas Tywin lives through the war. In this war Tywin obliterates the armies of Stannis, Robb, and Edmure. His grandson remains on the throne and he proceeds to consolidate his power with several moves. We get Tyrion/Sansa and Joffrey/Tommen/Margaery marriages. In addition to this Loras ends up on the King's Guard in a manner reminiscent of the Mad King keeping Jaime close to the capital. Tywin also uses the oldest political tool in the book, patronage. Below is a list of Small Council appointments and their benefits to House Lannister.

*1. Mace Tyrell as Master of Ships = Favor to the Reach * 2. Mathis Rowan as adviser = Favor to the Reach * 3. Paxter Redwyne as adviser = Favor to the Reach * 4. Kevan Lannister as Master of Laws = Lannister consolidation * 5. Oberyn Martell as adviser = Favor to Dorne

The Stark scorecard

*1 Two patriarchs dead within a year. *2 The matriarch is killed. The seat of House Stark is sacked. *3 The Northern Army is for the most part slaughtered. *4 Some of their most loyal bannermen are in chains. *5 Northern territory is governed by the Boltons and occupied by the Freys. *6 The North's closest regional ally, the Riverlands is neutralized. *7Northern bannermen besides the Bolton's actively engage in the new Northern order such as the Karstarks and the Dustins

Considering this scorecard it sounds like indeed the Lannister stratagem worked Twyin's cunning allows him to pretty much be dominating the board up until his death, whereas Eddard gets his unfortunate haircut barely after the game started. His son fairs no better and arguably ushered in the greatest military and political disaster for the North since Torrhen Stark So there it is Eddard and Robb were honorable fools and it cost them everything What if we compare these two men through Tywin's notion of legacy

Family Men

First let's start with family. We learn these two men have different parenting skills. Eddard is a pretty loving and caring father, especially when one considers the harsh nature of the North. All the Stark's are thoroughly devoted to their father. But Tywin's children are quite literally the death of him. Could any of us see Bran do to his father what Tyrion did to his?

The Wardens

Eddard and Tywin have vastly different governing styles. Tywin leads by fear with his Rains of Castamere. Eddard seems much more democratic. He holds feasts in Winterfell with his people regularly and the harshest action he took against one of his bannermen was against Jorah Mormont. Eddard also had the benefit of a trial by fire that won him respect.

The Tywin Myth

The second Tywin's bowls release a frothy stream of death poo, his legacy collapses. Cersei's trial, the rise of the Faith Militant, the death of Kevan, the ascendance of the Tyrells, and the Iron Bank backing Stannis all follow. To make matters worse that incompetent dunce Cersei is in charge of the West. So his legacy is a Mad Queen, a holy war, and the possible return of the Targaryens.

The Loyalty of Wolves

Eddard along with his are remembered fondly by the North who now openly plot to retake their homeland. They've lost everything in yet they are still willing to either conspire against or openly battle the Bolton/Frey alliance which is in effect challenging King's Landing. Eddard may have lost the first battle, but his memory may be a game changer.

I can't. It's not more noble. Killing is never noble. It just sometimes seems like the only choice. But is a war can be averted by the murder of a few people in power then that should be the first choice.

confirmed

>spoiler

Oh, so multiple characters got that treatment. I thought it was only the one.

If he starts singing, I'm leaving and never coming back.

Fucking hated that shit. Deus ex machina

Whoever made this sucks at comedy - you've gotta put Lannister before Targaryen. It works much better if you lead with incest then move to "you call that incest? Hold my beer."

Because the duty of the noblesse is to keep the world running. Destroying trust in the basic traditions and diplomatic customs would in the long term erode relations between states, and force more wars.
These wars, as any notion of trust or diplomacy has passed away, would be or annihilation. Anything below the level of ethnic cleasing and requiring the death of any male above the age of 5-6 and any woman over 25.
The children would be come slaves, and starting in the teenage years women would be slave-wife or slave prostitutes. Just as in the ancient times, before the dawn of civilization and diplomacy, where empires rose and fell in blood and fire.

To be fair, that Romanovs got such large numbers AFTER the Inustrial Revolution just like how most folk's populations exploded back then.
But yes, spreading the line through intermarriage seems much less common in Westeros, probably because from a legal standpoint almost 99% of all Westeros lords have the same rank regardless of wealth ("Lord") rather then a complex aristocratic hierarchy.
Apparently Martin himself regrets this now but thinks adding it in at this late point in the novels would be incongruous.

>complex aristocratic hierarchy.
Like what? Baron, count and duke?

Because you aren't decaying social trust, undermining the ability of lords to travel the breadth of westeros in peace, and shift in the whole fucking society a step toward universal paranoia.

The small cost in lives makes the approach superficially appealing, but cooperation and coordination are crucial resources in keeping vastly larger numbers of people alive and you've pissed all over them.

Not an argument. The king of the North needed to be dealt with if peace is ever to be achieve for Robert's rightful heir

You asked why it's worse than fighting battles and I spelled it out.

If you think he was a serious enough threat to justify burning the commons like that then fine. I'm not contesting that.

But don't just wave off having done it. Costs not don't vanish just because paying them was worth it. There must still be an accounting.

This.

Abhorrence of treachery and deceit is required for basic social interactions to function. A man who killed 10,000 in battle (or rather, presumably, lead an army that killed 10,000) can still be reasoned with, negotiated with and may even be an ally to the nation whose men he killed in the future. But one can never trust the second man enough even to have dinner with him. It's not that killing 10,000 in battle is particularly noble, but that killing at a dinner is particularly ignoble & socially destructive.

>mfw Season 7 is only further cementing the undeniable fact that Emilia Clarke can't act

That's why you encourage a subordinate to do it. Dont get your hands dirty unless its absolutely necessary. The executor should get all the blame. Then you may even execute him yourself and be presented as a hero. It may be beneficial to your rule that people below you are to bussy fighting each othe instead of conspiring against you.

In the end, this wasnt what caused Tywin downfall. It was his mismanagement of family matters. Family. That was his real downfall.

Yup.

How is that anymore complex

A raven dropped by.
With a letter...
Those are not just 20 men...
They're 20 good men.

These two cover it pretty well, mostly the diplomatic trust, but at least in war there's SOME agency to save yourself when you know where the enemy is.

And that the series is trash.

Her eyebrows can at least overact.

>the last truly competent Lannister aside from Tyrion
Hey now, Tywin's sister is pretty cool.

Could you sparingly poison people and only then in circumstances you could politically justify?