Is freedom the right of all living things?

> Is freedom the right of all living things?
Not unless you make it so.

Rights don't actually exist - there's no such thing as an inherent right, only the rights granted by those in authority to those they govern. And that authority is generally maintained via the ability to punish the governed in some fashion. Might literally makes right.

So, if I'm a god in this scenario, and am presumably capable of exerting my will over the puny mortals, the answer is "They have the right to freedom if I say they do." And I presumably only say they do if I actually have reason to care about whether they grow or stagnate as you postulated. If I don't, mindless automatons are the way to go - humans are clearly a mistake.

I wouldn't call NAP lawful but I also hate the whole "any code of conduct or behavior is lawful" thing

In this universe the answer is the laws of physics don't care, life is a chemical reaction and concepts like 'right' and 'wrong' are totally confused and self-contradictory abstractions inferred from monkey instincts.

In your fantasy game though, you can write whatever morality you want right into the fabric of your universe. Aesthetically, I agree that freedom is more attractive than authority, but then I'm a Democrat and not some traitor-lover longing for a tinpot dictator.

Sure but you're actions are without inherent right and are meaningless

Your*

>Democrat
>Not an authoritarian socialist

You failed your cause.

A nice compromise would be to make beings with the illusion of free will. The controlling gods can calculate the future if they want, and the cultivating gods can just watch the mortals' changes as they happen.

Everything is 'meaningless'. With the concept of inherent right or without. With a greater authority telling you what to do or without.

If a god created you with a grand plan, then that plan must someday come to completion, or fail. Either way, your existence has no further meaning. And your only purpose until then is to act as some sort of cog in said plan. And that plan itself is merely the whim of said deity - its own 'meaning' stops there. Is there any meaning for a god's existence?

Someday everything ends. Everything you toil for. Everything you 'accomplish'. Every civilization will crumble, every species will go extinct, every moment in history will be utterly forgotten, every particle of matter will eventually decay back into the void, and every form of energy will diffuse into emptiness. To strive for meaning is a pointless endeavor. Strive for momentary happiness instead. It lasts longer..

>Is freedom the right of all living things?
yes, yes it is

not just "living" beings, but all sentient beings

You misunderstood the point of my post, also cosmic good and evil would provide meaning as rather than being subjective judgments they're hard laws baked into the universe

Gravity is a hard law baked into the universe. It doesn't mean that people should hold up gravity as a universal truth to be worshiped instead of something to live with or overcome.

A judgement only has worth if it's subjective.

Maximizing freedom leads only to the legitimization of the opinions of fools. Order gives structure and purpose and ensures that the truth is what is acknowledged, not seven billion divergent opinions.

Fools, that ye are, you presume that there is not some higher truth to this world. You presume that all that exists only that which you can see. By assuming that there is no objective moral standard to which all can be held, you cut yourself off into a spiral of nihilism and pointlessness.

No one is truly free, because there are still laws which govern all beings. Entropy, gravity, death. No one is completely controlled, because their fates are unknowable and the universe is inherently chaotic.

Neither of you can ever win.

Sounds like the only winning move is not to play

I'd make their world, create a bunch of nice places in it, find myself a wife and create a kill switch for the entire race. I don't really care what they do, provided that they don't become a threat to all life or they don't try to directly intervene in the realm of the gods. It would be far too exhausting a task to guide a group of unthinking retards all the time, so I might as well just let them have free will.

If they start getting uppity or thinking themselves above me, I would only use the kill switch as a last resort. Otherwise, I would just give all of them annoying or inconvenient curses to remind them of who's in charge.

But God has ordained all that every was, is, and will be. Everything in existence is able to be fully controlled by Him (although He does not, like with human free will), thus, we live under divine order, not disgusting chaos.

Lol that's one hell of a ghost story you're telling there kiddo

...

>God can do anything!
>but He doesn't

How is your slave morality treating you?

>slave morality
what?

Your complaints about God are idiotic. If you try and actually pay attention in everyday life, and maybe even pray a little, you will notice the hand of the Almighty at work.

>the hand of the almighty

Ghosts in the vision. Faces in the flames. Symbols in the static.

spook-y

You ascribe to chance what is clearly the working of a higher power. The existence of God is easily proven through simple logic.

Stirner a hella theorist. Christians are terminally spooked.

Precisely.

I don't think I did misunderstand. How does Good or Evil being inherent, quantifiable forces provide meaning to existence? All you're doing is throwing another layer of abstraction up.

Acting in accordance with the precepts of Cosmic Good or Cosmic Evil isn't meaningful: Those are methods of living, not reasons to do so. Maybe you do good because you like living in a world where nobody goes hungry, or do evil because you like living in a world where Satan has bribed you with lascivious supermodels. The end result is that you do so out of personal preference for the results of following one or the other.

The only true explanation for what moralists consider to provide 'meaning' I ever hear is 'ensuring the forces of Good win in the end.' But in the end, either one side or the other emerges victorious, and you have nothing left to exist for afterwards (i.e. you are meaningless) or G&E stalemate eternally, and the entire struggle is ultimately futile (and therefore meaningless).

Your argument appears to be "If, instead of following my own will I instead suborn my will to some other force, my servitude will provide me a purpose!" As if following someone (or something) else's goals instead of your own is somehow inherently an existence with more direction to it.

Prove it then. I bet it's the ontological proof which Berty Russell discarded more than a hundred years ago

What does a capital-G God need a universe for, anyway?

You guys know there is a 99.9% chance this is bait yes?

Yeah I take my kicks where I can. Let me perform my ideological masturbation.

So long as you are aware it's masturbation I guess

Sure in the real world morality is relative but I am talking about fantasy, I probably didn't make that clear though

There are no rights: society may be predicated on the idea of them but only God has rights. Man has duties to God and allowances from him.

Truly if there are many "dieties", they already are unequal, already individuals with their own freedom. Those who despise freedom will be tasked with ensuring man remains limited: they will have no freedom for having rejected it and will be made equal in formlessness as is their wish, but serve to ever protect the heavens and serve the will of higher principles. At the same time, those who have embraced freedom are tasked with guiding man, by taking the spirit of his purpose and putting it into words so he is not lost in it but uplifted by it, and ensuring his growth: they will intercede for him. Man will have free will and his growth will be tied to his self-mastery, so men may grow to be worthy of heaven, but will be limited so they are never a threat alone and are capable of fulfilling divine will: they will also be measured equally by one standard who will, as a man, suffer everything man did.

Freedom and order can be complimentary.

It's like you heathens don't even try. Attempt to disprove these:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Ways_(Aquinas)
I am not sure, but I ain't complaining either way.

Oops wrong poster I meant

Okay now it's confirmed bait.

Please do not entertain the troll and derail the thread.

Thank you.

The truth has been spoken.

Great imagename as well, Ozymandias.

I just lost The Game.

Is that a panda with a chimpanzee face

I want to have slightly depressing meaningless sex with you. It will be bittersweet and beautiful and likely not last long. Much like life.

Wanna feel old? Very soon you'll be dead and shortly after that no one will remember you ever existed.

If I was a god then why would I give the remotest of fucks.

Figure that one out on your own did ya?
Here's a head pat for your trouble.

I can only hope. I'm already old and presently have been spending time making sure all images of me are destroyed. Keep respawning though; died thrice now and keep fucking coming back. I miss the Void.

When I die I want all trace of me wiped from the earth. I can only hope it shall come soon, that glorious day.

Motherfuckers I just lost The Game

what was will be what will be was

Has anyone ever really been far even as decided to want to do look more like?

Whether the real world,
Or in just fantasy,
You're caught in a landslide,
Of subjective morality...

Source on OP pic?
She has those fuck me eyes

Sounds basically like shin megami tensei.

No, that's the Decepticons

>what?
read nietzsche

Your freedom ends where mine begins.

Why do you build, paint and and play with miniatures, user ?

>you presume that there is not some higher truth to this world
And what would be this truth, and who or what could impart it ?

Good man. I came to this thread to post exactly this.

OP is the best.

>everyone is stupid
>that's why we need a communistic regime bossing everyone around
>it'll turn out fine!

Calvin pls. The future is uncertain. Humans have free will.

Everything is an illusion. Free will doesn exist. Nothing has a purpose. Now, let's go and watch some TV.

Ultimately, rights - both rights in the sense of what a person is entitled to, and rights as in this is the right thing to do - are fiction. At least, that's how it is in our world. There's no cosmic right and cosmic wrong to measure things by, and no laws - anything in nature that appears to be a law is simply a pattern (yes, even stuff like the Laws of Thermodynamics) that humans have observed.

When deciding how thing should be for us, we can only turn to us to decide, to our condition. Appealing to any outside source of rightness is meaningless. What we know about our condition is what we know about ourselves, and what we know about ourselves is that we are capable of suffering - and that suffering is an unpleasant experience that often spreads and causes more unpleasant experiences. Our experiences may seem unimportant against the immense backdrop of the universe, but really, they are no less important than anything else (a black hole for instance is vast, incredible thing, but ultimately it's no more 'important' than you are), and they matter more than intangible concepts of right and wrong, which are pure fantasy.

Therefore, causing undue suffering is as 'wrong' as we can say something is, in that it is bad for us, for our experience. Reduced circumstances such as tyranny are known to cause suffering, therefore the former group of gods are at fault here - especially if they are, like most deities, just more powerful, 'bigger' humans, who would also experience suffering in the same reduced circumstances.

What I'm saying is that humans don't have the right to freedom intrinsically, but it is in the interests of any human or human-like beings to cultivate and uphold that right.

No, not really.

You have to consider that animals don't get the right to live because many of them are cattle that we like to slaughter and eat and stuff.

Besides, what use is a God that is not omnipotent and omniscient? That god would not be of use at all.

When people talk about "rights" they are talking about ethics. Just because you have the power to do something doesn't give you the right to do so ethically. Even if you created life. It doesn't give you ownership of their futures ethically, even if it does practically.

You can build the fantasy setting from the ground up to have objective morality

The Good god tells you to murder your own brother with a rock. If you don't fall on your knees and praise him, before murdering your brother with a rock, you are now CE.

That wouldn't occur in a universe with objective morality

The Good god is the source, or at least the representation of objective morality of Good. If you disagree with him, you're by definition not good.

True but I wouldn't create a good god who is generally immoral from our perspective if only to make the setting easier to understand, in universe though it would be wrong to contradict the good god if he's actually good

Your own perspective is very subjective. It's easy to say "Murdering someone is wrong" without ethical whiplash, but if you get into any kind of complicated situations it quickly becomes less black and white.

I agree with you that morality is subjective in reality, but in fiction where you can make literary anything up objective morality is possible

Kill all other gods.

Sit back and smoke god-weed while the humans figure shit out for themselves. Occasionally give some god-weed to the humans, because I'm high as fuck and don't give a damn about anything.

Not really. Most fiction just makes the protagonist automatically correct even if he does horrendous things with just a faded clue for a reason.

Possible, not always true

>If you were a god, what would you think would be the ideal solution?
Put them through a crucible every time they get too complacent and soft willed to weed out the weak, and aside from that leave them alone.

Build my creation and give them them free will and intelligence, then drop resources all around them, then drop in a shit ton of varied threats to pit them against.

Whenever they conquer these threats, give them a few decades of peace, then throw another one at them, rinse and repeat.

This lets them enjoy their victories, but forces them to continuously learn to fight new ones.

Time to recover and build resources, gather knowledge, then time to put that knowledge to practical use and burn away the fat.

They might hate me, but they will eventually become greater than myself, perhaps even kill me one day, and the other Gods will curse my creation, but I will smile as my child becomes something more than I could ever be.

Only later on.

Remember: "You are being deceived."

What sort of incompetent god gives free will to something that was supposed to be their mindless tool in the first place?

There might be things other gods wouldn't allow you to do since there are multiple dieties,
I assume none of them is trully omnipotent. So you create your very own race of mortals and secretly guide them towards your goal. If it works, great, you've gained an upper hand and other gods can't do shit; if it doesn't, you can always go "Oh, those zany mortals and their crazy schemes. How could I know what they were up to?" which is a shit excuse, but it should work if you covered your tracks properly.

Every thing that exists as well as every thing that does not exist both constrains you and enables you.

What, then, is freedom?

>If you were a god, what would you think would be the ideal solution?

Have lots of explicitly graphic unprotected sex with mortals, bestow amazing but incredibly irresponsible powers onto them, and make lots of cool, super dangerous monsters all day every day.
Order is a meme, chaos is the natural state of existence. Anybody who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you something or is trying to restrict your own freedom under the guise of "security" that simply can't be assured and won't ever be worth what's given up for it.
Good and Evil are also a meme created by larger, more powerful interest groups to disparage different people for their own convenience, ergo: fuck your mother if she's hot enough, let your father fuck you if you're gay enough.
Chaos!!

So says I, "Obligatory Father of all Monsters" God.

>You have to already believe in him to "see his had at work"
Shit deity, 0/10

you are who you choose to be.

Since when logic is bait?

Before we can get anywhere, we need to define "freedom" "right" and possibly "living things"
depending on the definitions, the answers are "yes" "no" "...kinda?" and "obviously not, you retard."

The difference between luck and a miracle is pretty subjective, and almost impossible to prove either way.

The Worm Loves You.

>i don't get the reference so i think it's gibberish

>Is freedom the right of all living things?
Robot Jesus said so, and robot Jesus speaks truth.

Mind you, Robot Jesus said Sentient. By which he meant Sapient, because English is his second language and that's a common mistake.

Which means feel free to continue enslaving animals. But if it can think Robot Jesus will have to redeem you with his ion cannon.

honestly this is the average sort of girl i wish i had been having one night stands with in college

nothing really noteworthy about her but it would be a good night of feeling like you're normal. i'd almost rather bang her than someone objectively prettier because at that point you're like "ok you're banging me but you're out of my league, what's your angle"

with this girl you're like "ok shes just horny like me, we're both average. cool"

anyway whats this thread about?

If that's average where you are, I want to move there right now.

I'm pretty sure this is an "elf slave, wat do" thread in disguise. With the occasional philosophical wanking.

There are no rights. Only desires, and the ability to fulfill them.

Well, it'll be translated from his original language anyway, so probably something about how autonomy is every self-aware being's right, thus providing a cause and name for the Autobots, to oppose the Decepticon's attempts to create the ultimate enforced "utopia"