How can you justify warriors to be able to take on mages and wizards lorewise?

Easy enough. Iron is a natural counter to magic.

You can say this as much as you want, but it didn't keep Pathfinder relevant. The rest of us are eagerly awaiting the day when DnD suffers the same fate, because my god, all it is at this point is dead weight dragging the entire hobby down. Look at any topic on Veeky Forums where it comes up, EVERYONE knows it.

player characters are heroes straight out of Bronze Age myth and legend in most games.
in other words
DEPENDS ON THE FUCKING SETTING
sage
0/10 made me reply

This.

Aside from that, this topic is low tier bait.

No, they should just bring back D&D4, that was a step in the right direction

>top level mage
If two people are of the same level they are equivalent. Thus, a level 100 fighter and a level 100 wizard should have a roughly 50/50 matchup. The only reason this doesn't happen is because people aren't intelligent enough to think about how a fighter may compete with a wizard despite myth being full of shit like this and bad game design

And? If you're waiting for someone to die you're not going to walk over and point and laugh now are you?

You are not wrong.

While you're correct, they'll never do it because it pissed off the 3.PF grogs. They're allergic to good game design.

How about limiting the abilities of a wizard so that in order to throw bigger firewalls they need more trinkets? Don't they already need a spellbook for the spells just like the warriors needs equip himself with magic armors and weapons?

Make spell actually laborious and expensive, not something that you just give it away for free in a book with infinite pages. Make high level spells cost billions of coins in gold for the rare and magical tint alone and made them have to be writing down and drawing the spell for hours and hours until the thing is ready. D&D and derivatives are inspired by Vancian Magic
after all.

OK. Fighter lacks sword and magic items.
Wizard lacks spellbook and mystical arcane items to cast spells with.

Fighter beats the wizard to death with his two fists.

A big part of the problem is that most GM are hesitant to give fighters magic and powerful items while casters get them for free.

but if i wanted to play 4e id just go play WoW. I dont want my fighter to have heroic strike

You're one hell of an idiot if you're complaining about D&D, where swordsmen can likewise become gods and perform impossible feats.

Please, just put on a trip already so you can get banned. No one ever takes your bitching seriously.

>4e=WoW meme

And if anyone takes objection to that, imagine gandalf without his staff vs aragon without his broken sword. Tell me how fast THAT fight would be over.

>4e
>WoW
Go actually play both of those for a bit then come back
Don't fall for obvious meme

What edition? Because outside of the commonly derided 4th, no they fucking can't.

It honestly was, but the grogs and nostalgia fanboys whined and bitched endlessly because they were so used to the abuse that they couldn't even recognize what improved game design was.

>"WAHHH! I CAN'T BE BETTER THAN NEWBIES BY PLAYING A CLASS THAT CAN BE A GOD WHILE THEY UNAWARINGLY PICK ONE THAT'S USELESS?! WHAT DO YOU MEAN EVERY CLASS IS USEFUL NOW?!"

Why dont you level cap at 9 or 12?

>Implying that it's just one person that's sick of DnD dominating the hobby, and not like 60% of Veeky Forums.

Talk about one hell of an idiot, amirite?

strawmen do noone any favors

most grogs don't even accept the caster/martial disparity

i heard far more complaints about "hotbars" and the power format than balance

It's the D&Dtards latest fad. It's impossible to criticise D&D without being a troll, and D&D is so popular that it's impossible a large part of the board dislikes it, so they convince themselves it's a small cadre of trolls, organised and dedicated to... Shitposting about a game on the internet, for some reason. It's kinda weird.

Because level 5 is when the Fighter can swing his sword a little bit faster while the wizard learns to fucking FLY.

There is no role in the current edition of DnD (5e) that a non-caster character can fill better than a caster. I could almost say there's no role they can't be filled better by just wizards, but the one arbitrary limitation they decided to give wizards was a lack of healing magic so that clerics would still be useful I guess.

I do find that bizarre, how obsessed they get over formatting rather than how the rules actually function.

I actually have a theory that most of the few system war trolls really are just butthurt 4rries.

It largely lines up, especially with most of their anger being towards Pathfinder for killing their system, and a secondary hatred for 5e for being the nail in their favorite games coffin. There's some correlation with how active they are and how active the 4e general (when it exists) is, but it's all just speculation so far.

There's also that one GURPS guy who just hates everything about D&D just because it's D&D though, but he's so far gone he makes even other system war trolls seem sane.

when the 4e preview came out we were flipping through it like "wow now every class has spell like abilities so theyre all kinda samey with different names for things, just like an mmo" then we all went back to playing WotLK where all the monsters are dnd monsters. it was a better tactical game, and easy to DM, but i hated playing it

>i don't know anything about D&D, the post

>There is no role in the current edition of DnD (5e) that a non-caster character can fill better than a caster.

As long as you ban things like skeleton hordes and probably sorclock, fighters can top single target damage charts.

It's not much, but it's something.

The sad part is, half the people who actually DO play it still complain about how much it sucks in certain areas. Even on the 5e General thread, every time the skills system comes up, everyone unanimously hates it. Every time casters come up, everyone agrees wizards are overpowered, every time fighters come up people say they can;t do anything in or out of combat except hit stuff.

It's like "Goddamn, almost sounds like you wish you were playing a different game. Maybe give a few a try? Let go of your nostalgia goggles and maybe let something besides DnD have a chance to win you over with actual good design choices and cohesion?"

The one problem with this being a anonymous site is that there's no fucking way to gauge how wide-spread any belief is and there's no way to say if everyone anti-D&D post is from one dude, or every single argument against it is from a different person.

Rogues are better at stealth and assassination than even invisible wizards, and Fighters are much more important on the battlefield in 5e. In general, wizards do get more utility, but at the limit of not always having the right spell to cast or the resources to cast it.

>every class has spell like abilities so theyre all kinda samey with different names for things
But that's wrong
All classes are and feel different as long as you actually read the powers

>implying most people obsess about what games are popular
>implying most people on Veeky Forums don't just play D&D or their other favorite games and ignore all the system war bullshit

You need to get out of your own head some times.

Prove it. Because I have played martial characters in D&D. Nothing in the system supports the superhuman heights you claim they can achieve.

A strong arm and a sharp blade is a powerful incantation

>Fighters are good if you just ban the classes that can do more than Fighters.

Yeah.... that's not an argument for good game design. Then you're just left with a bunch of classes that can only do damage and one class that can do damage the BEST.

In a well-designed game, every class should have unique roles, both in and out of combat. In DnD, characters with magic can just make themselves the best at ANY role with a spell or two. The sad part is, it's not even DnD as a whole that's broken, it's just the magic system that needs a severe overhaul so it doesn't invalidate fucking EVERYTHING ELSE simply by existing.

Nah man, you're just not as clever as you think you are, and you're just an obvious troll everyone recognizes.

If you wore a trip, how long do you think you could go before you got banned? Not very long, I wager.

>Rogues are better at stealth and assassination than even invisible wizards

>wizard turns his familiar invisible
>sends him in
>uses all the rest of his slots on casting explosive runes repeatedly through the familiar
>bombs the entire fucking building

yeah, sure

I guess you're just going to have to look like an idiot then.

I'll be looking at the variety of superhuman feats that people have access to as early as level 1, and not even mention anything involving epic levels or that you can LITERALLY become a god. I don't think it's worth discussing those sorts of things with a troll like yourself.

gonna need some proof

Yes. The rogue is actually still better at stealth than an invisible familiar, largely thanks to his skill perks.

Put on a trip, keep shitposting like you do, and we'll see how long it takes for you to get banned. That'll be the proof.

And yet most of those "superhuman feats" still give a player less in the way of options and roleplaying agency than a good selection of level 1 wizard spells.

Gandalf mostly sword-fought, though. He rarely used magic

Wow, those goalposts really are mobile aren't they.

You don't even need invisibility.

Who the fuck is going to suspect a bird? A bat? A cat? A rat?

They can essentially hide in plain sight. And if shit hits the fan? Even if they can't just fly away... Fuck off to a pocket dimension.

Meanwhile the rogue gets caught? Whelp, I guess we gonna need a rescue party now.

>Moves the goalposts
>Gets an answer related to the new goal
>WELL YOU'RE JUST TROLLING SO I DON'T NEED A COUNTER ARGUMENT!

This is another reason people are sick of DnD fanboys, can;t even muster up logical arguments to defend their shit system. Probably because there are none.

Come to 5e General sometime, there's a guy who constantly bitches about Druids being OP for this very reason.

He's not wrong either.

Seduction skill helps, too.

Wow, you really are just an upset troll. Someone countered your divergent point bait, and you fly into a rage? Classy.

And that is why he'd get his ass beat by Aragorn.

This isn't rocket science, folks.

Let's try another then. Sampson vs Moses, let's get biblical. Who would win in a throw down? Sampson killed a thousand men with a jawbone, Moses parted the sea. Who would win in a fucking fight?

I check in sometimes, usually after UAs.

It's not worth having the tab open, the discussion is usually circular/repeating itself.

Druids at least have a limit to their ability, and put themselves in danger.

A fucking familiar is 10 gold a pop (with the startup cost of buying it for like 50?) and 10 minutes to conjure. It's like 1/10th of his out of combat features.

Expertise is the main "ribbon" feature of the rogue and all it does is give him 10-30% extra chance to not fuck up a thing the caster doesn't even roll for.

Prove it. Everything else is just empty words.

>And that is why he'd get his ass beat by Aragorn.

Gandalf is a half-angel.

He'd absolutely demolish Aragorn's tender elven blooded boipussy.

>Rogue can hide really good if it's dark out.
>Wizard can literally use magic to turn into a perfect copy of anyone or anything that would have the authority to be there or not raise suspicion, without needing any skill in Disguise or Deception.
>Wizard also has invisibility, shadow cloaks, spells to raise his Dexterity, and a dozen other options if he doesn't wana take the shapeshifting route.
>"Yeah man, the rogue is totally better at stealth and has more fun and creative options to use.

user pls.

A rogue can literally do all that if they are an arcane trickster.

I'm still waiting for an actual counter-argument from the DnD table.

You aren't going to get one.

At this point I think they're actually sincerely delusional, having thought themselves into a corner that any critique of D&D must be trolling and therefore they have no obligation to rationally consider or respond to any of it.

>Limited to Illusion and Enchanting magic (neither of which allows shapeshifting)
>Almost rarely ever allowed to take spells outside of those schools
>Still way worse at them than wizards with less spell slots to fuel them.

OK.

Dude, you moved the goal posts, he answered you, and you're refusing to acknowledge it. Do like said and give an actual counter-argument or fuck off back to your containment thread.

His answer amounted to 'yes there are', before excusing himself from having to give any proof.

Give him AAP dummy dums!

Gandalf would wreck him.
Remember that Gandalfs mission is only that of guidance. He's not really allowed to use his powers as the last time they had an all out war with the powers of darkness bringing all their magics to the table they destroyed most of a continent

Dragon Age Templars are a horrible example, because Templars are basically just-above-the-threshold-mages that are trained to believe that they're warriors, and that all their magic is actually anti-magic.

thread over

You already got one, Satan, and nine swords didn't even need to be mentioned.

Man, you system war trolls are really off point today.

Is it really a system war if you don't mention other systems?

If you're referring to then no, that doesn't count. Saying 'You're wrong and I don't need to prove it' is not an argument.

D&D damage is irrelevant in combat vs save or suck.

Compare this to gurps, anima, sos, warhams. Damage is relevant because you start to fucking suck dick omce damaged. Hell in one of those just giving the state of pain will make casters useless to outright unable to cast without dying.

It would be, except for that whole "will of the author" part, see the "will of the author" in the most popular games on the market is "LOL MAGIC CAN DO EVERYTHING!"

People aren't wrong for wanting something else to get popular, even if their frustration means they express it with salt and vitriol.

Go read some Conan (like the real Robert E. Howard stories), he kicks wizard ass constantly.

See Yes, Conan is the kind of thing people WANT, but unfortunately most popular Tabletop systems don't deliver on that. They'd rather fall back into wanking over all the cool shit they can make magic do without really considering how that affects everything else in the game. Rule of Cool > Intelligent/Coherent world-building.

By instead of making your PC warriors be Stormtrooper #457 be more like a Greek Hero

the warrior swings his sword with the dangerous force of a nuclear bomb

once again fpbp
/thread

The issue with other systems is that they're not really popular enough to get a response. Saying GURPS is tedious or that ST is beyond broken almost feels like kicking a lame dog, and you're really rolling the dice to see if anyone would actually disagree with you.

But bringing up a tired criticism, and the errantly applying it to D&D? No shortage of people willing to call you out on being wrong there.

There's much worse games than D&D out there. But, none let you spew out bait so readily, and I'm willing to bet that in an alternate universe, where D&D wasn't the most popular game, you'd love it and hate whatever happened to be the most popular. No way to prove that, obviously, but such is the nature of an argument-seeking troll.

It doesn't change the fact that mechanically you have very little in the way of options for actually expressing that, other than feats and abilities that make you better at dealing damage and nothing else. A melee character has maybe 3 or 4 choices in combat if he's lucky and 1 or 2 out of combat. Conversely a mage has dozens of unique spells that could affect the entire flow of combat every turn, and even more to handle obstacles in unique or interesting ways out of combat.

Making fighters stronger doesn't change the fact that the popular systems and their derivatives lock all the major options for interacting with the game world behind magic, and the few times they're not, there's still usually a magic option that does it better.

>it doesn't count

Yeah, it does. Superhuman from level one on, and you can literally become a God in the end. What's there to even debate?

>Is it really a system war if you don't mention other systems?
>let me mention other systems...

I think you missed my point.

See because it kinda unintentionally answers your argument.

The complete lack of evidence behind your assertion.

Prove it. Cite something from the SRD, provide a screencap of a pdf, fuck even paste some text. Provide some evidence to convince me otherwise.

sometimes i wonder if people here overstate the divide

a DnD poll, from the game people claim is unbalanced, had fighter as the most popular class, wizard was fourth
the gaps between the classes were also fairly small

so it seems like this problem is specific mostly to Veeky Forums

I can agree with that. This will get some people's panties in a twist, but that is why I'm leaving DnD. I've had a lot of fun playing dnd over the years, but in a couple weeks I'll be running my first ever game with a non-dnd system, and hopefully that will help.

As has been said a million times, if you want your top level mages to be nuclear bombs and you don't want warriors to be relegated to pointlessness, then those same warriors should be able to parry/tank nukes

Mages teleporting everywhere mid combat? Warriors move at blinding speeds by default

The long and short of it is that it is mind-numbingly easy to put mages and fighters at the same power level, pretty much regardless of what that power level is and only the terribly unimaginative incapable of seeing anything beyond a fairly narrow and frankly uncommon scope could possibly be confused by this.

Sage cause the meme is stale

Fighter is popular because people WANT to play badass swordsmen.

Then they actually do it and find out that 90% of their gameplay is "I attack again" and get frustrated that they can't really do much more than that, unless they have magic items that replicate things the magic classes can already do. Hell, even *I* want fighters to be badass and cool, but mechanically they're just a slog to play in DnD. I have way more fun playing a wizard or a sorcerer even though the fantasy of guy who can shoot fireballs doesn't appeal to me nearly as much as that of the badass heroic warrior.

>90% of their gameplay is "I attack again"
If players are shit and/or DM is shit, yeah.

Read Deities and Demigods. Becoming a God can be done in a number of ways. There's also canon examples of warriors becoming deities, like the Red Knight of Faerun.

If I play a shooter game and have a character that gets a rocket launcher that can kill everything in one, chances are I'm going to play it once and then wana play a character with a more reasonable gun.

It doesn't change the fact that the munchkin using the rocket launcher class is way more powerful than me and will probably ruin my experience if they're in the same game as me.

...