Do you think WoTC should get rid of/remove cards from the reserved list? Why or why not?

The reserved list was stealth-removed with MTGO, as you can now buy all of a vintage deck for less than a modern or legacy deck.

If you want to play paper vintage, make some proxies and play proxy tournaments. The only reason the reserved list exists is nerds having a difficult time with abstract concepts like "pieces of paper do not gain inherent value based on who printed on them."

Go play proxy vintage and stop buying reserved cards and the list will eventually be abolished.

In fact the value of a piece of paper is in fact decided ultimately by how much others will exchange for it.

>it's bad for card vendors

Is it? I thought they were the main ones in favor it since it protects their investments in old expensive cards

The stores income will soar at the same time though as people rush to buy duals and LED's and wheel of fortunes that are now 1/5 the price

Aren't stores still disallowed from running sanctioned events that have proxies? I forget.

Most of the ones I've talked to would rather actually sell their product instead of holding onto it forever

Plus if they reprinted like Dual Lands they'd get more business and trade-ins and all that

Stores can't run sanctioned events that allow proxys, no one cares what they do if they're not reporting the event

>Most of the ones I've talked to would rather actually sell their product instead of holding onto it forever
Fucking this. My LGS has boxes of Graveborn, old Planechase sets, and FTV sets that never sell because people are spooked away by the price. If they got people to buy it, they would have more space for their other sets and shit they'd want to sell

As many problems as the RL does create, it's existence is likely one of the main reasons that the game has survived as long as it has as it creates stability on the secondary market.

That said, it's also a bitch that we can't get even a functional reprint of Thunder Spirit.

I think they should, because I would get to watch collectorfags cry.

>1. It would make things cheaper and easier for players.
Not really. WotC has said that even without the RL they still wouldn't reprint most of the expensive cards that are currently on it. At best, we could see promo versions of the P9 going as Pro Tour prizes.

>2. It would ruin things for collectors
Well, yeah. It probably would simply by virtue of destabilizing the market and causing people to lose trust in it. In the long run that would likely be bad for the game as whole, however, and not just collectors.

>3. It lets WoTC play the field on pricing.
Incentivising people to not buy into the game to begin with as they won't be able to recuperate any of their investment when they feel like its time to move on.

They should keep it. I don't want poor people playing vintage. You meet really cool people playing vintage and allowing poor people into the format would ruin it

I wish they wouldn't. it's really hard to have something worth collecting right now, shit is super expensive and if people want to play kitchen table magic they already have proxies and Chinese counterfeits.
owning a few years magic cards gives excitement and an incentive for people with deep pockets. the only people complaining about the price is people who don't spend any significant amount of money on the game anyways.

I believe they will reprint it anyway and that bit will not make a huge wave amongst the base of prayers.
wizards will only follow the money and will make the decision that makes financial sense. they will wait for the best payout to reprinting moxes and stuff.

the things in reserve list may drop some in price but the scarcity of A, B, and Unlimited prints will keep them high.

wizards will speak to the lowest denominator again.

I'm not e even salty about it because I don't own any power but I wouldn't get any unless they dropped under $100

it would just kill A lot of the fascination I have for the game.

The players don't want the Reserved List, because it means a lot of shit can't get reprinted that they want.
The big stores don't want the Reserved List, because it means a lot of shit they have doesn't sell because people don't want to pay so damn much for it.
R&D doesn't want the reserved list, because it keeps them from reprinting shit they want to reprint and forces them to tiptoe around other things, while getting blamed for something people before their time promised.
WotC's and/or Hasbro's lawyers are in favor of keeping the Reserved List, and because they have the final say, the Reserved List stays.

For the first month... and then everyone gets their hands on the cards, and buying tapers off to the normal level. What then?

I think a solid middle ground would be to keep the reserve list, but not support them at all. Combine Legacy and Modern to a Legacy 2.0 which is everything besides the reserved list. If they pulled the trigger and dropped Legacy and Vintage from the pro scene, everyone would stop playing it. Keep collectors and players separate.

>Incentivising people to not buy into the game to begin with
What? since when i buy a children card game because i will shell out latear? this is the mentality of the cancer killing magic, (you)

Ok, this is obviously hard for you to understand, so I'll walk you through the process.

As a set is released, some cards are deemed as tournament playable, and others as crap. The tournament playable cards are valued higher on the secondary market and thus sell for more. Stores crack packs to sell those cards as singles. However, as people know that these cards will be reprinted soon anyway and go down in price there's no point in buying them now as you can buy for them for nothing in a month or two anyway. This results in stores not opening sealed product because there's no profit to be made from it. This in turn means that if you want to play the game, the only way to get the cards are by buying sealed products and opening them yourself, hoping to get the cards you want. The game has now effectively become even more expensive to play, and now you won't even be able to sell the cards you don't want to mitigate that cost somewhat. This results in less players and kills the game.

>Impliying that all sealed product must be shit
>Impliying the secondary market actually sustains a game
Yu Gi Oh outsell magic because
A) they ruin the secondary market
B) they reprint all the expensive shit to death in sealed product that actually has good cards
So that means that a game can survive without cards being sold at ridiculous prices, and without the necessity of they maintainign any value, because you comprehend the fact that they inherently have no value and are toys

Yu Gi Oh outsell magic because its main demographic are kids who got into the game due to a very successful cartoon.

That means that collectible valuea and the secondary market are not a nedeed for a healthy game

>Well, yeah. It probably would simply by virtue of destabilizing the market and causing people to lose trust in it.

I hate talking with a pro-reserved list cuck that argues that the reserved list in the magical pin holding all of Magic together. Everything else magic related just orbits the reserved list and if anything were to touch it magic would die over night and game stores would explode.

As soon as people who want the RL gone own 50.01% of WotC stocks the list will go.

>yugioh
>a healthy game
pick 1 and only 1.

I hate Modern, but seems popular enough. Why doesn't MtG just stop supporting Legacy? I feel like the only people who they would lose are people who give 0% back to the company.

>why doesn't mtg just stop supporting Legacy

People would still play it. There would still be a demand

WotC had no legacy on the pro-tour last year and people still had tournaments for it

Because SCG, their biggest customer, has spent a shitload of money on duals, lotuses, moxen, etc. And wants to sell them.
That's the only reason why Vintage and Legacy aren't literally banned from the WPN.

SCG is also the largest proponent for the abolishment of the RL because they're not retarded and understand cards aren't an investment and assets need to be liquid to be truly valuable. At this point who keeps the RL going is super shady because the people who have the most money invested on RL pieces want it gone the most.

I think they should remove some of the reserved list

I can understand keeping the power 9 etc on there, because whilst I despise collectors, it's also not fair to wipe away thousands of pounds in investment without warning

But who's going to fucking care if they reprint something like pic related?

There's a lot of fun EDH jank on the reserved list which is still a few pounds each, but out of stock pretty much everywhere

>incentive for people with deep pockets
i could not give a fuck about upsetting rich people because more ppl have the same cardboard lol

>What then?
business continues as usual because stores don't make money off selling $500 volcs once per quarter or less, they make money off moving high volumes of standard and modern cards. do you actually have any idea how these shops operate or are you just talking to talk?

We'll go back to the days when people used duals and moxen as coasters for their drinks because the game was all about the game and the expectation was that you could go get more product. Then maybe we'll stop giving a fuck about sleeves, which are a horrible use of plastic.

And when the game becomes affordable, it just might become mainstream.

Could you imagine? If Magic became mainstream? If it was something that could be enjoyed by anybody who wanted it but couldn't because it was so fucking expensive.

This is the most reasonable argument I've ever seen for keeping it.

Gold packs in MtG when?

If you force them to mix then Legacy players are going to have to put up with us Modern poor people and then they really will quit playing.

As a casual scumbag, it's pretty funny watching Modern players complain about the cost of Legacy and Legacy players complain about the people who play Modern. I still want to see the RL removed, if just to watch the chaos unfold.

I sure hope you use proxies because being a casual who doesn't know how to play with the best cards in the history of the game just makes you a useless casual who sucks at the game.

No. That's stupid. It would erode the trust that they've established and fuck stores and collectors. And for what? So people can get into vintage?

What a tragedy

>hoarding expensive cards is more important than playing the game

please kill yourself

>nerds having a difficult time with abstract concepts like "pieces of paper do not gain inherent value based on who printed on them."
You know that's exactly what paper currency is right? Or are you one of those libertarians who invests in gold?

The meta isn't, but seeing as it's the most popular tcg in the world due to SE Asia, and the non-english americas, I'd say it's a very healthy sales model. Of which Magic's has been faltering lately

This would be nice. Both Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokémon do this. Especially if the cards were deemed "legal" up to a certain level.

The Reserved List is a weak excuse to bat down reprint requests for Duals, removing it would change fuck all. Force of Will was an uncommon, yet they never reprinted it until fucking EM which only drove the price up. Goyf, Snapcaster, Flusterstorm, none of these is Reserved. The problem is WotC's entire mentality. If they wanted to make Legacy healthier and more accessible AND keep their promise, they'd reprint the shit out of non-RL staples and straight up ban the List. You'd only lose the Duals (which are replaceable by Shocks), LED and Mox Diamond.

>The stated purpose of the Reserved List is to preserve collectors' value
At the very least they could remove cards with a secondary market value of less than $10.

For a while, 75% of a set's rares had to be added to the Reserved List. But WotC was aware of this, and so would carefully decide which rares should and should not be reserved. In general, the more useful cards would not be reserved.

This means that a disproportionate number of cards on the Reserved List are there just to fulfill a quota, rather than because they actually have value. Which is ridiculous. Let's at least be honest about what the list is for.

>inherent value
Nothing has inherent value. It's all a question of what people will give you for it.

This includes money--or did you think that exchange rates were the result of some mystical divination process?

>if they wanted to make Legacy healthier
WOTC wants it to die off. They don't care much for modern either and would be happiest if everyone just played standard and maybe commander.

I am a useless casual who is below average at the game. I mostly use jank to play table top games. I do love and respect the game, just don't have the patience to learn the high level gameplay.

and I'm apparently the majority according to MaRo

>hoarding expensive cards is more important than playing the game
It's collectible card game. Why not? For that matter, why is there so much collector hate on Veeky Forums? Is it because you're all poorfag under-21s?

>why is there so much collector hate on Veeky Forums?

Why does every single scalper identify as a "collector"? Collecting isn't hoarding expensive cards to resell later. I collect things, angels, cycles etc, they are not worth a few hundred bucks each, and I don't expect them to be. I just like collecting this stuff, not trying to get rich by it.

>poorfag
Not wanting to spend a few thousand dollars for a single deck to play a game doesn't have anything to do with being poor, it's just being reasonable. Inb4, "paying for cardboard is retarded even if you spend 10$", there is a huge fuckin difference.

The reserved list is working as intended.

People have pointed out before that there are ways to work around the reserved list and print things that would reduce demand for reserved list cards, but that would defeat the spirit of the reserved list, which is to keep demand for those cards up and keep them valuable.

You want proof? Look at Tarmogoyf. It's not on the reserved list but it costs more than all but the most valuable cards on the reserved list. They could easily tank its price if they wanted to and every format where it's legal would be better off for it, but they don't.

WotC has a well-established vested interest in keeping the prices of certain cards astronomical to the detriment of their own game. You can make up conspiracy theories about why this is so but that's the fact of the matter.

This is starting to bite them in the ass though. They try to alienate their current fanbase and appeal to normies as much as possible, but when a normie sees the price of a card, they lose all interest anyway.

Where the reserved list is concerned though, the continuing health of the game is only a secondary concern. The for the man sitting on a pile of lotuses the future business can go fuck itself. He's just trying to hit that maximum possible price and cash out.

Netdecking has damaged the game and driven up prices on average more than the reserve list. All I want to do is play my janky fun decks but everyone has to play top decks that cost $500+.

>netdecking

You can as well say human nature damaged the game.

what if they announced that in 10 years time or so they will remove the reserved list

this should give invested people plenty of time to try and move what they have without dropping prices through the floor on them right?

>It's bad for people wanting to get into formats
Why? Just don't use those expensive cards. There's plenty viable substitutes.

You can't play vintage, legacy or modern to a lesser extent if you aren't dumping a lot of money for many cards that have no replacement.
We had to wait over 10 years and only now a crucible replacement exists.

>Why? Play with bad cards instead of the good cards! Problem solved.

I don't want normalfags playing it though. I only want their money sustaining it.

>it just might become mainstream.
No.

they can't because the agreement they made can be legally binding and you can bet your ass that all the collectors and big shops would conjure a mega class action in 10 seconds flat, and many of them also are part of the MtG ecosystem, organizing tournaments and distributing cards, so it wouldn't be smart to make them mad.

It was definitely a very bad idea to make the reserved list and, had they been incredibly smart, they could have worded it in a different way that allowed them to reprint reserved cards in limited quantities after 10 years.
Some bad ideas can't be undone.

WotC can keep pushing MtG without ever giving a shit about Vintage. there are already so many formats and they mainly do money by pushing standard.

Are you aware they already altered the reserve list once unilaterally before? A lawsuit would have no leg to stand on.

Yeah, because every good deck runs Black Lotus.

>Are you aware they already altered the reserve list once unilaterally before?
There was a peiod when WotC made clear moves towards abolishing the RL in its entirelty. And then suddenly they stopped, closed a couple of loopholes on it, and refused to talk about why, only ever claiming that their legal department says they aren't allowed to do anything more with the Reserved List and that they aren't allowed to talk about why.

>A lawsuit would have no leg to stand on.
Doesn't matter. Everything points towards WotC/Hasbro having concluded that abolishing the RL would result in lawsuits and that they would cost them more than selling packs with RL cards in them would bring in.

>A lawsuit would have no leg to stand on

do you have a source to back that up?

If this is sarcasm then Black Lotus is probably the worst counter example you could have used. There are serious discussions about whether there ISN'T a deck that Black Lotus fits into, even (debatably) manaless dredge. Every deck that can run Black Lotus does. It's that good. Literally every card in the game is a poor substitute.

Abolishing the reserve list, or removing significant cards from it, would IMO be unfair for collectors or anyone who holds copies of those cards. They were promised that these cards would never be reprinted(and by extension, remain valuable) so doing so would be tantamount to theft.

That being said, it also sucks that the reserved list creates such a huge gate on trying to get into certain formats, as well as optimizing decks in others. I'm an EDH man myself, and would love to get my hands on a Cradle or two without going into debt.

An ambitious idea I had would be for Wizards to offer a flat payout for reserved list cards to be turned in, roughly equal to the market value of each card, and then reprint the reserved list in a sort of "Reserved Masters" sold for like $12-15 a pack. Like I said, pretty risky, but it's the best thing I could think of that wouldn't outright screw one party.

The only cards that absolutely SHOULD be reprinted are duals. Any attempt at making a dual land work has been shit outside of Painlands and maybe Checklands have been pretty shit.

Actually broken stuff like Power Nine or Tabernacle should be left on the list, that's perfectly fine. Reprinting some stuff like early Legends or cards that aren't worth shit like Minion of Tevesh Szat or Elvish Farmer wouldn't hurt the market too much.

Like if a card's on the list and isn't more than a dollar than what's the problem reprinting it?

i think the reserved list is garbage. i can see why they wont reprint black lotus but some 10 cent rares i dont get

I have plenty of money in this game and I want nothing more then the list gone so I have people to play legacy with, pic related as some of the cards that were nearby

>reprinting a product required to play the game would hurt scalpers, so that's a bad thing

Noone should care about the feelings of these assholes.

the incentive us to have something nice bro. when it reaches the point if it being too valuable to play then I couldn't care less, but there is something nice about having shit that is rare.
I look at my pimped out EDH and smile not because it has cards worth hundreds but because I traded or opened every card in it and they are rare, and hard to get.

Communism is one hell of a disease.

here is your (you)

>Magic is a game, and all formats should be available for people who want to enjoy playing them.

That goes for many types of games, but will naever happen

think about it from a business perspective, they announce tomorrow they will be printing the top 8 decks of the year of each format for precon prices.
what will this do?
plummet the value of the cards.
flooding the market
turn off people
boost sales monetarily but destroy the game on the long run.
people would stop buying booster packs.

the "lotto" aspect of opening packs is a main driver to buy mtg product.
I'm not talking about the 3 fat fucks in each lgs that buy 3 boxes each. I'm talking about the future generations buying tons of product one at a time.

and the mid of the road guys like me buying one box every other set or so do it because it's fun and it kills time.

many people have said it wotc only makes money by peddling cardboard because it's worth something for people. if you take the worth away wotc dies and magic stops growing and developing.

>Why does every single scalper identify as a "collector"?
I'm not a scalper. I very rarely sell/trade cards.

>Not wanting to spend a few thousand dollars for a single deck to play a game doesn't have anything to do with being poor, it's just being reasonable.
The reserve list has nothing to do with the price of standard and modern. Why don't you just play those formats?

reprinting duel lands at mythic in a masters set is so far from reprinting full decks at procon price, this is one of the most absurd false equivalency claims ive ever seen, no reasonable person wants to have every expensive card printed to death but the master sets have proven that adding a few reprints of expensive cards into the market doesnt destroy the price of them,goyf and bob didnt instantly become valueless cardboard from being printed a few more times

>plummet the value of the cards.
>flooding the market
>turn off people
How does it feel to be wrong?

Nice cards.

Nothing is permanent.

Nigger, I don't use sleeves because I care about the value of my cards. I use sleeves because they make shuffling smooth as butter.

I'm a collector and I don't give a rat's arse about reprints. If Wizard's started printing Lotus in every fucking set at common starting tomorrow, the Beta Lotus I own wouldn't magically combust. It'd be still be a beta lotus. Most collectors also don't have stacks of the same fucking card either, so "devaluing" would barely scratch them. For reference on this look at the first printing base set Charizard from Pokémon: It's complete dogshit and it got reprinted to hell and back, but that did absolutely fuck-all to the collector's value of it.
Leave collectors out of this shitfest. We literally do not care about reprints.

You dummy, Charizard was literally the strongest mon in the early days and it's not cheap at all to get now.

>releases this
>push format super hard
>adds a couple cards to the format
>let's Timmys/Tommys play jank for cheap
>let's Spikes netdeck

I mean, the format would be only about as good as Modern, maybe a little worse, but the amount of Jank allowed would be worth it.

I'd rather WotC not ruin one of the better formats.

How could they ruin it? You think with how big the card pool is they could kill it?

The moment WotC starts to design cards specifically for a format is usually the same moment that the format becomes boring.

Commander is still fun.

Commander is only not fun when people fill their decks with expensive cards (duals for efficiency and tutors to curve the randomness). Pauper is nice because if you want to be a net decker, you can for cheap.