Need feedback for a megadungeon campaign idea

Hey TG, i need some feedback on a premise for a dungeon-crawl-focused campaign I'm working on.

About 60 years ago, Kingdom A and Kingdom B were at war. A was losing

The old king of Kingdom A invited a cabal of wizards to offer their magic to the war effort, but before hearing their proposals, died in battle.

His son, still raw with grief, goes to meet the wizards, and is appalled at their proposals, particularly the bit about reviving his father as a swarm of flesh-eating beetles. He declares the wizards enemies of the state and attacks them, although they get away, swearing they'll have their revenge as they leave.

Faced with two foes now, the new king agrees to capitulate to Kingdom B, on condition that Kingdom B declare the wizards enemies as well. Kingdom B agrees, because, hey free land.

So, it's 60 years later, and someone stumbled on the wizards' lair, a sprawling dungeon they've been building for the last 50 years... inside Kingdom B's territory.

This is an issue because Kingdom B doesn't want to allow a heap of Kingdom A soldiers to come into their land to assault the dungeon, and doesn't really want to annoy some evil wizards by sending their own soldiers.

So the dungeon is opened up to adventurers, like the PCs. The idea is that the adventures will vary in focus between simple dungeon-crawling through a maze built by multiple mad wizards who don't all get on perfectly well, and some degree of political intrigue, as multiple kingdoms/other groups have differing attitudes and interests in regards to the mad wizards and their abominable magics (ranging from "BURN IT ALL" to "we want to use it for ourselves").

Other urls found in this thread:

thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon

I love that article, although if it was directed at the dugneon map I picked... that isn't going to be the megadungeon. It was just a picture I found and vaguely liked.

Something about the writing bugs me, but I can't put my finger on it...

I think it is the wizards, who move in a very "plot like" fashion. A bit to unbound by logistics, a bit lacking in planed actions beyond what is required for the plot.

Given they are powerful wizards, why choose a plan on a 60 years+ timetable that runs the risk of the person it is meant for deceasing before it is ready? Why the extra megadungeon, don't they have a base of operations already?
If they had a base in B, why not offer aid to B instead of A? Why didn't they react in the 10 years prior to construction, having gotten a declaration of war from B? Couldn't they have build the base in lands under their own or not hostile control? Or wouldn't A be more convenient, as it is the target and now that B has gone hostile it doesn't make any difference?
And putting down a megadungeon solely on magic means while being completely stealth lacks a certain weight in the game world.

Also I think that there isn't much there involving the character of the megadungeon location. For it to feel really mega, it needs a connection to the one place where it is, why it cant be anywhere else specifically. Under the world biggest city, the bottomless drop to hell, the volcano that will birth a new sun.

Hmmm. Fair points. I'll have to think about this...

Also the wizards seem awfully passive post dungeon discovery.
>So the dungeon is opened up to adventurers, like the PCs
Sounds like it is sitting there like a theme park.
it has been 60 years, one would think there is a plaque or an army of abomination ready to pour out. It seem like the war should be on the moment mercenaries of B (or equivalents) set foot in there.

Very clever background. I'd avoid telling it all to the players unless they ask about it since that is a mouthful.

It's the fucking background, all this writing shit doesn't fucking matter in the slightest bit.

The point is to explain why the dungeon is there.

>Because they are spiteful crazy wizards
>No, they never met before or were only casually acquainted
>The dungeon was made after the betrayal or it was convenient for arbitrary reasons
>because they had to plan this shit, megadungeons aren't easy to make
>because they wanted to pop out in the heart, also it's implied that B doesn't have all that much beef vs the wizards
>A has direct beef, B has coincidental beef
>The weight on the world is what the fuck the wizards are doing in the dungeon, not the dungeon
>You involve the character by reading their background. Lost relatives, ancient vendettas, sweet cash

It feels like you are actively creating problems that literally aren't there and players won't give the remotest fuck about.

No, those are garbage nitpicks that will only muck up your dungeon with a lot of self-referential bullshit that your players won't care about.

>Also the wizards seem awfully passive post dungeon discovery.

Because they are in a giant fucking megadungeon most likely created to deal with people trying to break in.

You are jumping to conclusions because the OP didn't explicitly state things. Ask some fucking questions for christ-sake

>Sounds like it is sitting there like a theme park

No, it's sitting there like a fucking megadungeon. A gigantic fucking deathtrap to keep the wizards safe while they work on their machinations to have their revenge.

What if it's an artifact of some sort -- an orb of abominable power -- that they were attempting to employ against Kingdom B? Shit went bad somehow . Maybe the orb influenced people, escalating tensions leading to bloodshed and some of the cabal--perhaps mortally wounded, with only the orb's magic keeping them alive--fled with the orb and hid away, eventually go insane with its influence.

What this gets you is a reason that the wizards just sat around and created a dungeon. They were horribly wounded (perhaps by the magics of others) and thus in no condition to go campaigning. They were also driven insane by degrees, so maybe they've abandoned old goals. And maybe they can't stand to go too far from the orb, which has been magically ensconced in the dungeon, sealed in a place in its center with magics. No one wizard is strong enough to remove the orb, at least not without exhausting himself and leaving himself vulnerable to the other wizards, and the orb has turned the wizards against each other, and at least made them incredibly suspicious of each other. So it remains there, gathering more influence over the wizards, and slowly perverting them to its needs.

Or, you know, something like that.

Hey Op asked for feedback, I gave what I thought about it. Depending on presentation, if I had been a random player I might have had those questions. Others might not.

I mean OP is kind of asking us to pick at the seams a little so he can improve it.

"Ok sounds fine." Is nice to hear but doesn't give OP feedback to work with.

(OP stop me if I'm mistaken.)

I don't know why you sound so agitated, maybe I'm imagining things. I wasn't being mean on purpose or anything.

>Ask some fucking questions for christ-sake
The question is kind of implicit, OP can jump in at any time.
And I mean my first post was a line of questions. and you took issue with that.

Under this scenario, you could still have Kingdom A suing for peace, in fear of the dark magics that were released. And Kingdom B would be understandably fearful of a bunch of crazy wizards influenced by an evil artifact residing in a bizarre dungeon within their territory (and no more trusting of Kingdom A than in the original scenario).

OP is being a paranoid twat if he is looking for nitpicky feedback on a solid-gold background.

I've also had god-awful experiences with DMs who are constantly "BUT GUYS, HEAR ALL OF THIS BACKSTORY" and it's all so fucking boring as all fuck. I came to play a game. I came to have my fucking character do shit, not to hear about all these other jackasses doing shit in the background.

I'm also triggered as fuck about garbage nitpick responses that aren't even quality observations but more like "I'm curious about this but want the answer now, irrelevant to how much the answer impacts the story being told." It's a ball and chain that weighs down a lot of stories because they want to make sure every little detail is answered, even when the most half-assed assumption by the audience gives a perfectly valid (and potentially exciting) answer.

OP here
the long timscale I was going to chalk up to the wizards (or at least the head wizard) getting fixated on perfecting his projects (maybe becoming a lich) and kind of losing track of time - if the PCs let slip that the king he wants vengeance on is on his last legs, this could lead to a rapid escalation of problems as the wizard suddenly tried to enact half a dozen half-finished plans that probably won't work but WILL cause massive collateral damage.

Honestly, I'd be inclined to chalk most of the issues of the wizards acting like idiots to... them actually being a bit dumb in certain respects (i.e. in most things that don't involve grafting ice-breathing eels onto people and suchlike).

you are correct in saying that the dungeon was made, or at least located and expanded, after the beef between the wizards and the King.

I figured I'd ask the players who they want their PCs invested in all this - sent by one kingdom, the other, a third party, wanting vengeance for an eel-stabling incident, wanting sweet loot

In the intervening time, the wizards have had some internal arguments, a whole heap of projects that they half-finished then abandoned, have brought in some outside factions that don't all get on (a dragon who has lent them a portion of it's hoard for financing but expects to be repaid, some orc mercenaries, etc).

this would mean that the wizards would take a while to first notice that their dungeon has been breached by adventurers (as they all think another member of their cabal is keeping an eye on the top level, and that any incursions into their own territory are due to another one of the wizards or imported factions playing sillybuggers), then agree what to do about it, then actually do something.

Of course, if things DO progress to an outright war on the surface... well, that's one way for the campaign to go.

Different people like different things.

Only because an adjustment in backstory is suggested doesn't mean the replacement has to be more cumbersome. Just let us assume OP is doing his best to GM fluently and won't bog down the game with infodumps and rather include any story he might choose in an organic unobtrusive manner that will only enrich the game. It would really be more a critique of GMing style. And it has to match his players, for some the story is the game, or a significant portion of it.

I also don't get why you think I'm demanding answers or else. There is no obligation to give me any in this thread. The feedback was merely written in a question format.
It seem like you prefer simple and utilitarian backrounds, those exist and they can be watertight even against my stupid nitpicks who aren't quality observations.

It seem like you are projecting some negative game experiences, I wish you more fun games in the future.

>I'm not demanding answers
>I'm just asking questions
>I'm not expecting my questions to be answered if I ask them

Aight, coo

Well yeah, it sure is mighty fine getting answers, but this being Veeky Forums it can't be expected.
So it is basically altruism (for all the fuzzy feelings that provides) and the entertainment that thinking about the scenario provides.

>Also the wizards seem awfully passive post dungeon discovery.
This is the biggest issue.

>For it to feel really mega, it needs a connection to the one place where it is, why it cant be anywhere else specifically.
This is another good point, but less vital.

>>Because they are spiteful crazy wizards
>I was going to chalk up to the wizards (or at least the head wizard) getting fixated on perfecting his projects and kind of losing track of time
>chalk most of the issues of the wizards acting like idiots to... them actually being a bit dumb in certain respects
These are shit.
Shit motivations for characters leads to shit writing.
These are wizards capable of wielding incredibly powerful magics.
They are not lol-no-sense-of-right-or-wrong meme wizards unless you want wacky funtime adventures, in which case, "a wizard did it" is fine.

I liked the idea of the wizards crafting a century long plan to cruelly crush both kingdoms and replace them with one land unified under them, and doing it in a single day.
Then their lair gets found out forty years before they're ready, which should have been impossible.
How did it get found?
Was there a traitor wizard?
Fun thoughts to explore.

>orb
This idea is better.
Mix and match to taste, OP.

Forgot to say that it's a good backstory all around, aside from the static wizards.
Better than most.
Good job, OP.

>Why the extra megadungeon, don't they have a base of operations already?
Presumably they had a base known to Kingdom A, that they got chased out of.
Which would have been easy because they weren't expecting the prince to turn on them.

>If they had a base in B, why not offer aid to B instead of A?
Presumably because the base was built later, see below.

>Why didn't they react in the 10 years prior to construction, having gotten a declaration of war from B?
Presumably 10 years of planning amongst bickering wizards, or OP could change that.

>Couldn't they have build the base in lands under their own or not hostile control?
Presumably they built the base in B because A was filled with men actively hunting them under a driven king, whereas B just outlawed them to make peace and keep land, and is nowhere near as relentless in hunting them.

>Or wouldn't A be more convenient, as it is the target and now that B has gone hostile it doesn't make any difference?
Presumably, since both kingdoms are officially hostile to wizards, revenge is to be dealt to both. But it's safer in B, see above.

None of those questions took more than a second of thought.
Y'all be trippin'

Let's make this whole thing a little less linear.

>The old king of Kingdom A appealed to a cabal of wizards for aid, but then died in battle before meeting them.

Now, you don't need to specify that the wizards actually got involved or even set foot in Kingdom A.

>His son declares this cabal enemies of the state and attacks their organisation

Let's suppose that the heart of the cabal lies elsewhere (we'll use that soon) but that many apprentices get hung from lamp-posts. The new king's rationale could be that these sorcerers betrayed and killed his father, or it could be that he hired the wizards to kill his old man in the first place and is cleaning up loose ends. Or, for that matter, he could be super-religious and simply Hate All Wizards. The PCs don't need to know, and it might be helpful to leave this undefined until the shape of the game has clarified. (If the players want intrigue, then double-dealing patricides are good to have, but if they just want to Kill Some Wizards then you may want a more straight-up monarch.)

>It's 60 years later and someone stumbled upon the wizards' lair in Kingdom B.

Sure. They always had holdings in Kingdom B and only retreated when New King Antimagic formed a coalition against them.

>So the dungeon is opened up to adventurers

OK. What do you mean, "opened up"? Does someone crack the wards on it and start licensing "privateering" bands to sack the place? This seems a bit too organised and probably gives the PCs too easy a route to information (the archenemy of mystery).

Instead, try someone stumbling across the place and getting a glimpse of Fabulous Treasures. If the PCs aren't the types to be motivated by Fabulous Treasures, the game is likely off on the wrong foot, so hanging this out up front is at least going to save some time. You can introduce hints to the background and political intrigue as the party explores and hits up sages for clues about dungeon puzzles.

>This is the biggest issue.

No it's fucking not. THEY BUILT A FUCKING MEGADUNGEON! WHY WOULD THEY BUILD A MEGADUNGEON IN ENEMY LANDS IF NOT SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE IT CAN HANDLE WHATEVER BULLSHIT THE KINGDOM SENDS?

I think you miss the point, passivity is not exiting, that's the issue. It's not about wrangling some byzantine lore into this point. Its making the game world more exiting, the game part you want to play and have been going on about.

>They are not lol-no-sense-of-right-or-wrong meme wizards unless you want wacky funtime adventures, in which case, "a wizard did it" is fine.
>They gave a hand-wavy answer! They must think LOL WIZARD

Holy fucking shit you stupid cock. The OP even says in his fucking post that they have varying personalities and different/clashing agendas. Them having character has already been established. Is it having a grudge for 60 years that is baffling? Because I'm pretty sure there are ancient stories fables and legends and shit that are all about people holding grudges for fucking decades.

>I liked the idea of the wizards crafting a century long plan to cruelly crush both kingdoms and replace them with one land unified under them, and doing it in a single day.

What?

What the fuck?? Why? That is so goddamn boring and lame. Why in a single day? There is already an established reason for the wizards to do this shit. They got fucked over and almost murdered for trying to help a kingdom. Yeah, so they want revenge. How the lair gets found is goddamn irrelevant to the story.

>Now, you don't need to specify that the wizards actually got involved or even set foot in Kingdom A.

No, fuck this. This is a badass part of the story. Wizards show up to help and get fucked over due to personal disagreements with one dude. Perfect story. No need to touch it.

>Let's suppose that the heart of the cabal lies elsewhere...many apprentices get hung from lamp-posts. The new king's rationale could be that these sorcerers betrayed and killed his father, or it could be that he hired the wizards to kill his old man in the first place and is cleaning up loose ends. Or, for that matter, he could be super-religious and simply Hate All Wizards. The PCs don't need to know, and it might be helpful to leave this undefined until the shape of the game has clarified. (If the players want intrigue, then double-dealing patricides are good to have, but if they just want to Kill Some Wizards then you may want a more straight-up monarch.)

What the flying fuck is this garbage? You are bogging this story with baggage that has nothing to do with exploring a fucking megadungeon.

>They always had holdings in Kingdom B
Why is this necessary? It's already established that Kingdom B didn't have a beef with the wizards. It makes perfect sense they would have been able to sneak a magic HQ into Kingdom B's lands (fuck maybe even w/ Kingdom B's knowledge which can be assumed since they aren't exactly super buddies with Kingdom A hence the "no soldiers in our lands" and none of that needs to come up at fucking all unless there is a curious player who asks about it so there is no need to talk about it)

> This seems a bit too organised and probably gives the PCs too easy a route to information (the archenemy of mystery).

No it's fucking not. The OP laid it out perfectly. Kingdom B wants this shit solved and doesn't want Kingdom A to get their soldiers involved and doesn't want to get their own soldiers involved. SO they hire adventurers Shadowrun style.

make it a gaming device. Players actually conquers bit of the dungeon, and can keep them, give them to kingdom A or B or try to deal with the other wizard even. And get reward for it. Of course, it's real estate, so the may want to keep the dungeon in a good shape if they want a good price for it.

Well the dead king has to be somewhere in this dungeon. Otherwise there's no reason for him to die in the backstory (he could have just turned down the proposal himself after the wizards wanted his son or something).

Also, since wizards made it, rooms in the dungeon should have 1 of 2 categories
1: Solvable with magic the party has
2: Requires much higher level magic, but can be solved non-magically in a way the wizards didn't think of.

(pic related: what I think the king will look like 60 years after he died)

THE GAME WORLD?

THE GAME IS TAKING PLACE IN A FUCKING MEGA DUNGEON

THE COOL SHIT IS INSIDE THE FUCKING MEGADUNGEON

HE ISN'T MAKING FUCKING LORE FOR A FUCKING SETTING BOOK

HE IS MAKING THE FUCKING BACKGROUND FOR THE PLAYERS GOING INTO A FUCKING MEGADUNGEON

DO YOU GET ALL YOUR PLOT IDEAS FROM SHITTY ANIME?

You seem to be extremely upset at people having different opinions to yours on the internet. Are you new here?

Why?

Why even bother with this?

The OP has already laid out a shitton of awesome moving pieces already without dealing with the two Kingdoms he doesn't even care about enough to give names. Why should he start caring now? Why should the players even care? They aren't in the sick-ass megadungeon.

>Well the dead king has to be somewhere in this dungeon. Otherwise there's no reason for him to die in the backstory (he could have just turned down the proposal himself after the wizards wanted his son or something).

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Your logic is garbage but the wizards (or one of the wizards) going through with their re-animation plan is really badass.

Are you OP ?

Then why do YOU care ? I just gave OP some advice he actually asked for.

And MAYBE he and his players want more than a megadungeon you fucking nerd

Eh?

Do you come to Veeky Forums for a hugfest where everyone tells you your ideas are super awesome?

Or do you just get this defensive whenever anyone points out your ideas are shit?

>want more than a megadungeon

DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THE FUCK A MEGADUNGEON IS?

Were you on the design team of Dragon Age Inquisition or some shit? You seem like the kind of guy who just loves tacking on unnecessary shit that adds nothing engaging to the game but makes it have broader appeal.

>Then why do YOU care ?

Because I've actually run a fucking roleplaying game. I actually play roleplaying games. And this advice is fucking garbage.

Or maybe i'm some non-faggot who actually want to play something different than a fucking videogame when i play tabletop. And MAYBE OP is too. That happen more often than you think despite the saying

Hey OP, keep everything but make it WW2

OP asked for feedback on his ideas. If you have already said that they're awesome, you're basically just in this thread because you have nothing better to do with your life.

I'm sorry for you.

Before you got upset about me nitpicking the OP too much. It seemed like you would have preferred hearing a super awesome there. And here you are getting progressively more agitated about people having diverging ideas.

Are you roleplaying or something?

>r maybe i'm some non-faggot who actually want to play something different than a fucking videogame when i play tabletop

Confirmed for not reading the OPs post
Confirmed for never playing roleplaying games for assuming "videogame only" content

>Before you got upset about me nitpicking the OP too much

What the fuck are you even talking about?

dude you should create your own Veeky Forums where people have to stick to thing to the most precise point, login with a name and surname, cite their sources and references and always, always prove everything to each other
that would be a nice fun place

wut

>WHY WOULD THEY BUILD A MEGADUNGEON IN ENEMY LANDS IF NOT SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE IT CAN HANDLE WHATEVER BULLSHIT THE KINGDOM SENDS?
Presumably, because they were 100% certain it would not be found, and we're mistaken or betrayed.

>passivity is not exiting, that's the issue.
Not at all.
Passivity doesn't necessarily sense in this case, and ignoring what doesn't make sense internally in favor of handwaving is the road to shit design.

Regardless of your point, seriously either fix your caps lock or take a klonopin.

>Presumably, because they were 100% certain it would not be found, and we're mistaken or betrayed.

Or they fucking built it to be a giant death labyrinth

>>They gave a hand-wavy answer! They must think LOL WIZARD
They're handwaving away any sort of intelligent action on the part of the wizards, "they didn't do anything for 60 years just because", so yeah.

>Them having character has already been established.
Thus handwaving away actions that would naturally have been generated by that character is a problem.

>There is already an established reason for the wizards to do this shit.
>Is it having a grudge for 60 years that is baffling?
Not sure why you thought I found their reasons for revenge or them holding a grudge for 60 years was implausible.
It's the "not acting on a grudge for 60 years" that needs explanation.

>That is so goddamn boring and lame.
Fair enough. I liked the other guys idea much better anyway.
I mainly liked that their plans are being interrupted by the adventurers.
I hate the idea that the heroes charging in at the last minute, just in time, for no real reason. But straight subversion is lazy, you're right.

>Why in a single day?
Explains the delay.
Waiting until you can win in one swift action is the strategy of someone who plays it safe, like guys who wait 60+ years for revenge.
One day is a bit arbitrary, granted.

>How the lair gets found is goddamn irrelevant to the story.
It's actually pretty relevant to the status of the megadungeon when the PCs enter it.
There's a difference between the wizards being preoccupied with their work, being primed to unleash their vengeance, or fighting amongst themselves.

>You seem to be extremely upset at people having different opinions to yours on the internet.
No, he disagreed and criticized. With cursing.
And he was right on every point.

This is not extremely upset.

This nonsense is extremely upset.

The only thing that makes his logic make sense to me is an overly liberal application of Chekov's Gun.