This is Lorgar. He ruined the Imperium. Say something nice

>who didn't need to be played into joining Chaos

how can someone be so blatantly wrong

Gav Thorpe made Lorgar's background shit seems to be the general consensus.

Kek, I had to look this up to figure out what the hell was going on there.

>I'd say all the Primarchs were tools.
Perhaps in some fashion. My bigger point was that Lorgar wanted to be used. He needed someone else to be boss so that he can grovel at their feet.

>he was the only traitor primarch who didn't need to be played into joining Chaos.
And please. Lorgar got played like a fiddle.

You did good champ, keep the hard work. DEATH TO THE FALSE EMPEROR!

You can't ruin what was already shit.

What is it?

Ehhh, I dunno. I mean, I'm a hard and fast Chaos fan-boy, specifically Word Bearers, but of course the whole point of Chaos is that they are what happens when you let your base urges. But I think you could make the case he didn't get played - all the others, or at least the ones that the gods took personally, were tricked, except maybe Angron. Lorgar stopped serving because the Emperor said the reason Lorgar had been serving, for the sake of the Emperor's divinity, was wrong. So, instead, he thought, if there are or aren;t gods in existence, I want to know. I admire him, as much as you can admire a Chaos Primarch, because the reason he fell was that he looked at what Chaos offered, looked at what the Emperor offered, and chose the one he thought would be better for humanity (well, the survivors).

Awww, and I was hoping that would be good too. Mm, well I haven't finished reading the Word Bearer's Omnibus yet even

bleacherreport.com/articles/904543-ucla-vs-arizona-fight-video-fake-referee-not-responsible-for-classless-brawl

He got played because the Chaos gods aren't the only gods and they are really shitty gods to their followers. If he was smart he would've followed Gork (or Mork).

The Imperium is largely shaped to fit Lorgar's vision, to the extent that the religious text that he wrote, that he wasn't supposed to write, that he was punished for writing, that was banned by the Emperor, has becom religious canon so sacred that deviating from it can result in execution.

Good job actualizing your benevolent creator's vision, fucking humans.

Yeah except you're forget all that being pushed on him by his advisers. And him just going with it because without worship his life was pointless.
And as with the Emperor the Chaos Gods arent 'Gods'. They're just powerful warp entities.

>and chose the one he thought would be better for humanity
How you can say this and not think he got played is beyond me btw.

I don't really think any other god was an option for humanity. Alien gods are too alien for humanity to worship, whereas Chaos exemplifies humanity, especially after the galactic takeover. And cruel as the gods are, they reward those who raise themselves up above every other unworthy wretch. Completely without compassion, but they are liberal with their gifts.They offer the chance to truly witness the essence of humanity, and in 40k, that of course means becoming a reality failure, but I still think he chose the right gods if he had to choose. Course the smart one would be telling them all to screw off but take it or leave it
Blessed is th' brutal, for these gonna krump the galaxy. Blessed be th' kunnin, cause them sneaky gits is behind youse. In th' name o' th' Gork, th' Mork... or is't th' otha way around?

He loved his brother primarchs more than any of the other primarchs. He was probably the only of his brothers to give a shit about about Angron; it was him who made Angron a Daemon Prince, freeing him from the Butcher Nails.

Lorgar had his own fair share of memorable quotes
>Lorgar: Have you lost your temper, Roboute?
>Roboute: I am going to gut you!
>Lorgar: You HAVE lost your temper.

Nice hood, it looks very nice.

Lorgar learned to harness his psyker abilities by that point so maybe he set up some mental defenses? That's probably a weak justification for their plothole but still

Well that's pretty much how Lion's psychic powers manifested, so it's a fair justification.

>Implying the Emperor couldnt best someone in a psyker off
No.

>Yeah except you're forget all that being pushed on him by his advisers
I disagree - Erebus gets all the blame (or credit, depending) but Lorgar chose to go on an Oddessy to find the gods for himself - he found evidence of some entities that were worshipped by every species. Maybe his advisors told him about their old faith, but he chose to put it to the test.
>because without worship his life was pointless
Exactly, his life's purpose was to set humanity up above what they were by bringing them close to divinity. He saw the Emperor wasn't a god, so he wanted to see if their were gods. As far as 40k goes, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh, and Malal, praise the Undoer might as well be gods, or at least worthy of worship seeing as they demand it and reward those who do.
>How you can say this and not think he got played is beyond me btw.
You don't think being able to experience the heights of human emotion is at all rewarding? The chance speak with beings made of pure joy or hate or hope or despair, the capacity to look into a realm made by thought, to bring literal dreams and nightmares into the world and to achieve immortality. Sign me up, gods or not they are here, they are real, and they have potential unbound to remake humanity better than the Emperor could ever concieve

How so?

You ruined it better than anyone else could've.

>I disagree - Erebus gets all the blame
What about Kor Phaeron buddy? And no those two convinced Lorgar to go find the chaos gods. He was too messed up to want to do anything by himself.

>Exactly, his life's purpose was to set humanity up above what they were by bringing them close to divinity.
Perhaps we see different sides of the same coin here but I never saw Lorgars actions as reasonable or respectable. He was looking for this because he needed it, not for some greater good for humanity.
As you say, if he was willing to settle for the chaos gods just because he got something back then his purpose was flawed.

>You don't think being able to experience the heights of human emotion is at all rewarding? The chance speak with beings made of pure joy or hate or hope or despair, the capacity to look into a realm made by thought, to bring literal dreams and nightmares into the world and to achieve immortality.
You can do all of that without submitting yourself to the will of a god who will use you in anyway they see fit as is in their nature.

>and they have potential unbound to remake humanity better than the Emperor could ever concieve
Humanity gets stomped on by the gods in the warp. Space marines are just powerful enough to stave of destruction most of the time, humanity isnt. Tell me more about the successful cultures on Daemon worlds? Tell me more about how Tzaangors are better off?

I dunno man its the best I can come up with. Maybe Big E was just preoccupied and the wellbeing of Worst Son wasn't a priority

>digganobs are worst humans

Considering that he had the whole Triumph to overlook and deal with, maybe he was just focusing on the other Primarchs. By that point Lorgar had suddenly seemed to get his act together, so Emps likely did nothing more than a cursory check, saw all seemed to be in order, Lorgar's doing what Emps approves of, and filed it away for a "congrats, Lorgy, you got with the program" or whatever, without bothering to go deeper and really brain-scour him.

Now, Malcador, on the other hand. That guy I would absolutely expect to have stuck his nose into Lorgar's brain once or twice to check up on him, especially after Lorgar already decided to punch him in the face at Monarchia. Malcador was supposedly third most powerful, from recollection, behind Emps and Magnus, so Lorgar should be running in fourth at best even after he awakened his abilities. And if Malcador had gone sniffing and suddenly found Lorgar to be mysteriously super-powerful as a psyker? You'd better believe he'd be sure to let the Emperor know, and the Emperor listened to Malcador on a lot of things.

something nice

Kor Phaeron is just a cartoon villain that abuses Lorgar.

devils advocate, everything except parenting advice.

If he HAD listened to Malcador... Maybe not on the Sister thing.. but other things, man.

He found the thing he was good at and did it.

Sure, the thing he's good at is "being high priest of malevolent and horrific gods", but you gotta do you.

Not Worst Son. Worst Tool. This is important to understanding the Emperor* and how he treated the Primarchs. To him, they were tools, not people.

And that's why once Lorgar started doing his job, the Emperor didn't check. If a tool is working, it's working. If it wasn't working and then you gave it a whack and now it's working, that's peachy.

*The Emperor as depicted in the HH series. I know some fans hate callous, unloving Emperor, but the clues for that characterisation are laid all through the HH books. Can't make sense of one without the other.

>Lorgar has plain face and inscribed armour
>Erebus has plain armour and inscribed face
is it, dare I say it, pottery?

The number of times he gave Lorgar second chances, another try, or failed to punish him are, however, not the actions of somebody who sees him purely as a tool. If a tool is shitty and continually not working, you throw it out. The Emperor didn't do that even when given and highlighted every possible chance to do so.

That's the problem with "callous, uncaring" Emperor: the times when he does act callous versus the times when he doesn't don't make sense in context, even within BL's own books. It's a bizarre result of the hatchet job they're taking with pre-book series lore to post-book series lore, involving multiple different authors with multiple different ideas about how to portray the characters, and said authors often also have a different idea about portrayal than the editors pushing their own views as well.

It's a mess.

>He doesn't want a 9ft tall superwaify

The thing is, portraying Emperor as treating the Primarchs instrumentally works when you consider his actual decisions when it came to commanding Legions and setting up the conquest, on top of the Ullanor thing, but it does not make sense in the context of interpersonal interactions between Him and Primarchs- the only explanation is that he kept up the "fatherly" front with them for sake of having their obedience and respectful attitude, but treating them as more than that would threaten his actual plans for them, such as actually letting them conquer and using them for his plans later.

Th Emperor seems inconsistent but as you said, its a matter of writers, and I dislike what ADB did with him in MoM. It takes away certain mystique from him to make him act so callously, but at the same time it lends credence to the theory that the Emperor was playing everyone for pawns from the very start and as such had no reason to explain to Horus why he needed to be back on Terra.

I still like the theory that Malcador is actually the humanity the Emperor shed from himself to become the godlike figure he was.
This can actually be explained away if you accept the now defunct Inquisition War fluff and realize the Emperor was always a schitzophrenic and it could have been different entities or groups of entities in the drivers seat at different times.

Or maybe Malcador was needed to bridge the needs of human subjects with Emperor's superhuman plans. Considering that Malcador was responsible for pretty much the entire administration and governance and Emperor was the Ubermensch that was busy engineering the universe, it must be said that its not surprising for Emps to be devoid of emotional attachments after living for thousands of years and seeing the fragility of men - it explains his desire to set up the Imperium as fast as possible and to engineer all the hard solutions for humans for when he was not going to be around any more, while Malcador did all the soft-side stuff like administratum and PR.

I think that very few Primarchs realized that the Emperor wanted to construct a reality where supermen of his type were unnecessary and obsolete, instead or ruling over mortals all the time and to have any emotions about the process was detrimental to the higher cause of mankind itself that Emperor could still give damn about after millennia of life.

>The God Emperor of man in one of his earlier incarnations

I don't really see that as an explanation for the interpersonal relationships largely because we know for a fact that the Emperor WAS willing to terminate two of his "tools" if they fucked up hard enough (and it's also confirmed by other BL books that yes, the reason was because of the Primarchs themselves), and Lorgar was just a long string of fuckups, so the Emperor treating them as tools damn well should have overriden "pretending to be a father" at the point Lorgar reached. Yet it didn't (somehow).

Horus not being told why the Emperor was going to Terra I always put down to him honestly not thinking Horus needed to know right then. Ironically Horus wasn't too far off with his guess in the very first HH novel anyway, "deciphering secrets of the warp". Really, only Magnus NEEDED to know more, and even then not immediately-at-that-moment. I imagine Emps' thought process was something like "great, I can science for a couple years, get going on this, while Horus and pals finish up the conquest part, and then we'll start on Phase Two" when Ullanor was going on. Were they even past the two thirds mark on conquering the galaxy by then? Shit, were they even halfway? It had been going for two hundred years, it could have needed another two hundred just to get things sorted.

Yes, but given that by the end of Great Crusade and start of Heresy the Imperium was already taking shape, I see it rather as gradual winding down of operations - Ultramar was happening, Marines were working between compliances and rebellion-quashing more and more and given the amount of faffing about everyone did during the Heresy, it is safe to assume that the Imperials were slowly running out of serious enemies to fight.

Really, Horus was given a cleanup job after Ullanor Orcs fell and major beasties were swept under the rug by most Legions. Chaos attacked precisely when it did because this was the pinnacle of all conquests and Imperial development. All that needed to be done was finish the job (which we know did not happen).

the spelling mistake in the filename triggers me far beyond mortal understanding.

Still a better Primarch than Lion and Angron

Angron is a fucking retard so I can understand him, but the Lion is one of the most successful Primarchs in almost every regard.

Lion was a bloody introvert with a superiority complex that everyone seemingly agreed with, treating Lion as being "above" most, even though he isn't as charismatic as Horus or Lorgar or strategically inclined as Guilliman or Dorn. The only thing Lion has going for him is being able to wreck Russ and a degree of competence which seems to be treated like a superpower now.

Half his Legion turned against the Imperium.

To deliberately turn your Legion against the Imperium is treason, but to have something like 50,000 of your marines turn traitor is a staggering failure for a loyalist Primarch.

>or strategically inclined as Guilliman or Dorn.
LMAO. Show me on the doll where the Lion touched you?

does anyone actually like DA fanboys?

The thing is I'm not even a DA-fag. Pic related.

It's just such blatant ignorance along with saying he's worse than Lorgar lul. Just no.

They both are treated as having the best conquest count, next to Horus (who got started early). Despite the hyping, Lion is mediocre. don't cry though, at least he isn't emo like Curze.

Number one Dorn got baby-sat by daddy because whenever he got to make a decision people died. So he's out and youre retarded for mentioning him.
And as for most wins between Ultras and DA the Ultras had more compliances whereas the DA had more victories. But thanks for making it clear youre an Ultraboo.

Charisma-wise Lion struggled but at least his brothers didnt despise him like Lorgar.

>a degree of competence
And this is just you understating a point because you dont like the Lion for some reason. He was one of the top tier Primarchs.

>Ultraboo

Not even close, I'm just citing the lore. Dark Angels never stood out beyond their secrecy bullshit that got half of the Legion turning to Chaos. Great job, Johnson. Not to mention, their books in HH are a dreary read - they simply breathe and radiate boring, and with an eternal misfit like Lion, you aren't going far. I mean, can you mention anything off top of your head that isn't to do with The Fallen or punching Russ? The man got led on a merry chase by Kurze while the Imperium burned, for crying out loud.

> youre retarded for mentioning him.
Apart from Magnus, Dorn was the only one who got off-world and was actively looking for the Emperor himself. And yeah, he got the job of watching the base on Terra, but they had enough victories under the belt on top of being Emperor's personal reserve to deserve it.

Calling the Lion mediocre seems odd.

He was really good at what he was really good at and appallingly terrible at inspiring loyalty or understanding people. He has shades of being an austistic savant; a strategic genius who can't understand the most basic of human social relations.

Cards of the table, I do in fact play Dark Angels, but I think the Lion is defined by a even mixture of incredible highs and pathetic lows in his skillset. I wouldn't use the word mediocre. Nor, in fact, would I probably talk about basic competence; he had massive holes in his competence. But he was very good at what he was good at (even judging on a Primark curve).

>Not even close
Kek then why jump to the defense of your spiritual leige and drop all your other points? Mkay.

>Dark Angels never stood out beyond their secrecy bullshit that got half of the Legion turning to Chaos.
The first legion. The prototype for all the others that followed. Prevalence of archeo-tech and maintenance of it.

>The man got led on a merry chase by Kurze while the Imperium burned
There was no way for the Lion to get an advantage and he waited for one to appear instead of throwing lives away. In other words stop wasting men. And if your going to give lion shit for that then pic-related.

>they simply breathe and radiate boring, and with an eternal misfit like Lion, you aren't going far.
I'm loving all this OPINION. Just say you dont like him and thats your reasoning because its the only clear thing coming through in your posts.

>Apart from Magnus
As a complete aside why do you think Magnus got offworld? Or did you just mean contacting the Emperor?

>They both are treated as having the best conquest count, next to Horus
I'm not taking part in this argument but comparing victory and compliance totals as a measure of a legions worth doesn't make any sense. The Legions were deployed for different reasons against different foes.
>Iron Warriors were given the most gruelling and brutal tasks which bogged them down
>Iron Hands were being shipped back and forth across the Crusade to confront heavily mechanized foes
>The Dark Angels and Space Wolves got absolutely savaged defeating the Rangda
and the list goes on.
The Sons of Horus had a headstart with their Primarch and were tasked to be the tip of the spear which is why they had the most military victories. Ultramarines had the most compliances because they were more focused towards diplomacy and infrastructure and therefore didn't have to fight as often for the worlds they were assigned to.

>your spiritual leige
I honestly don't care about Ultras. But if thinking otherwise makes you happy..

>OPINION
No, its a fact. Their schtick is secrecy (big whoopie doo), their appearance is of eternally brooding knights, their tactics and overall feel make them no different from the rest of standard issue Codex Astartes Chapters. If Night Lords did not exist they would be the edgelords of the space marines.

>they simply breathe and radiate boring
>its a fact.
Wew Lad.

Your hate boner is confirmed and its so obvious its funny.

>hate boner
I'm sorry that not everyone likes your green dudes. I simply do not care for dull colour scheme on dull units led by a dull man.

>I simply do not care for dull colour scheme on dull units led by a dull man.
>Reasons dont matter its all about how I FEEL!
K.

No idea why you tried to hide behind arguments when all it boils down to 'me no likey'.

All arguments about plastic figures of fantasy space soldiers will boil down to that. I have yet to receive an argument that unpacks the appeal of DA's to me. I've been looking at lore for a while and I've tried to like DA's too but for the life of me I cannot.

Please, tell me what is attractive or interesting about them and I might change my mind.

>berates everyone for being "destructive" instead of "creative"
>then joins chaos and causes all of humanity to be bound in ceaseless, purposeless warfare that will grind down their empire, all their achievements, hopes and dreams

>"Who's good at destroying things NOW, Ferrus?"

Yeah that made me laugh
In the first trio they made a big thing of having to retake istvaan - that these were imperials who had abandoned the Truth and killing imperials is big issue
Now suddenly there were rebellions happening all the time anyway

But user, his Emperor daddy didnt love him enough and didnt want to be worshipped as a god! Obviously this means he was an evil god because only true gods deny their divinity, proving them to be kindly gods, and the Emperor was mean to him, meaning he was a mean god and deserved to be cast down by these ancient Warp entities that totally were just betrayed by the Emperor as well and only want justice!

Lorgar should have died with Monarchia. It would have helped fix so many things if the Emperor had just gotten rid of him and been the callous monster everybody claims.

>he was the only traitor primarch who didn't need to be played into joining Chaos
he was literally played into joining chaos by his closest advisors

>Ultras had more compliances whereas the DA had more victories.

Keep telling yourself that gayboy.

You sound like a whiny cunt

Well thats incorrect.

>CANON ISN'T CANON REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Courage and Honour, motherfucker.

REEEEEEE if you wish user. Not even sure where you got that fluff from?
Either way it has been and always will be the case that the Sons of Horus had the most victories.

>Not even sure where you got that fluff from?

Codex Space Marines. Though it's been canon since Codex Ultramarines all the way back in 2e.

>Though it's been canon since Codex Ultramarines all the way back in 2e.
No it hasnt. And the new one? Seems like the fluff hasnt been properly vetted as with the iron cage. More likely its just from the space marines perspective and the chaos books will say its the SoH.

>No it hasnt

Yes it has. The only time the Ultras haven't been top is IA

Its codex SM, from memory DA codex says DA and Luna Wolves were at the top, followed by the yiffs.

I also believe the Chaos dex states that the SoH/LW had the most victories.

>implying chaos doesn't create
Order is the death of inspiration.

>Implying the galaxy needed the chaindildo

Your head would look nice impaled in an inquisition =][=

Primarchs are very expensive tools, you don't throw them out you try and get them working.

>Lorgar
>Plain face
I'm sorry what

Lorgar is the most beautiful Primarch, he literally is a golden god!.

He had the Emperor's face

There are two missing Primarchs who would disagree.

Whatever they did was clearly worse than Lorgar not fitting in

>not fitting in
Understatement of the thread.

>He is the worst and everyone hates him
Truth hurts and no one wants to hear it. Religion is central to human existence and the emperor is fedora:the god.

Mm, I dunno, I feel that him being robbed of purpose justifies the whole thing, or at least wanting to learn about the gods. As far as actually choosing to prostrate himself before Cthullhus kissing cousins, I think there is something enticing about worshiping entities who represent the breadth of humanity, and as bad as serving any of them is, I think someone like Lorgar, Undivided, would see Chaos in a better light from the start since you aren't being consumed by one narrow band of thought and emotion. And as for Tzaangors, I'd say it takes a lack of compassion more than intellect to side with Chaos. The Space Marines already saw themselves as the ultimate advancement of mankind, and the ones who actually cared about the rest of humanity thought they were more shepherds than equals. I think it would be natural in that universe to see Chaos as a path forward for humanity even if it only meant the most worthy or skilled individuals would survive

They are boring you literal faggot.

>their tactics and overall feel make them no different from the rest of standard issue Codex Astartes Chapters.

To be fair, that boils down to edition updates. They had access to different weapon assignment than regular Space Marines did back in third edition (Plasma Cannons in Tactical Squads), as well as adaptable Terminators (which they still have, as well as unique Deathwing Knights). 4th Edition rolled around and homogenized the Space Marines pretty severely, and it's a trend that carries on to this day. Who knows if it will be different when the Dark Angels book drops, but I doubt it will change.

Man, Lorgar got played like the easiest girl on the block before Chaos ran a train on his soul essence. He had the one thing that emperor tried to root out of humanity and that is unquestionable beleif in something - he was too mentally deficient to accept Reason as the sole purpose and need of humanity, he had to give into this broken thinking of prostrating before something to make his life mean something.

Seriously, the only chance Mankind had to fix themselves forever and he ruins it because he needs to "worship" something like a primitive.

Nice book you wrote