I firmly believe planeswalker card type was a mistake. I hate it with a passion, to such an extent that after printing of Jace, the Mind Sculptor, I exclusively play storm in all formats, just so I wouldn't have to ever play planeswalkers myself.
Besides the fact, that the story of Magic got over-centered over neo-walkers for years and years, they occupy mythic slots (a problem for another discussion), and by now are simply required to be able to play almost any non-combo deck in practically all formats with sole exception of Vintage, where you'll want Jace if you're playing blue tempo and sometimes Dack too.
Otherwise? Modern/Legacy decks simply require planeswalkers, unless you're playing storm or some other combo, even then we have shit like Nahiri into emrakul too.
If you'd put the same effects neowalkers have on enchantments with counters/once per turn clause, a lot of them would be viewed as OP before planeswalker type was a thing.
Honestly, I wish they'd done them like they did Jaya Balard.
Funny thing, most people appear to love them even after all these years.
tl;dr Fuck planeswalkers, should've never been made.
Austin Jackson
Delver, Burn, Infect, Elves, Merfolk, Affinity, Bogles, Abzan CoCo/Little Kid Luck all don't require planeswalkers and not all of them are combo so I don't know what you're smoking.
But the stories have been terrible. I blame shitty writers and the associated lack of budget.
Nice bait tho. 7/10 made me reply
Caleb White
I'd like Planeswalkers better if they were weirder as cards. Maybe the benefits aren't apparent at first or you have to make it work rather than just have an "I win!" Button.
Charles Reyes
Not a bait.
Tribal decks have been out of metas for quite awhile. Burn uses the new chandra.
Elves is a combo deck, Infect is dead outside of Legacy and there's people who call it "combo", but yes - Infect would count.
There are delver lists that run lilys, but it isn't a must, so okay.
Affinity/infect/delver/bogles - quite a lot of decks eh?
But what I've meant is things like "Black? Must get lilys. Blue? get jaces" kind of things, or that planeswalkers are simply better as a finisher in control decks than actual creatures, as well as the fact that they warp standard very often.
Evan Turner
I think most people share your opinion. Everyone I've ever asked agrees that planeswalkers caused much more harm than good and warped the game completely. Though you exagerate their dominance a bit. Currently there are decks across most formats that run fine without planeswalkers. But that number is certainly diminishing. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually they did appear in every non-combo list.
>Burn uses the new chandra. This though is an absurd claim that makes it hard to take you seriously. I've never seen a Burn deck in any format use planeswalkers. Please show me a competitive Burn list that runs any.
Aiden Phillips
>If you'd put the same effects neowalkers have on enchantments with counters/once per turn clause, a lot of them would be viewed as OP before planeswalker type was a thing. That's because you can't kill enchantments by just attacking them with a creature or throwing a burn spell at them. Only white and green have specific enchantment removal spells, meanwhile any creature or burn spell is a planeswalker removal spell and black has a couple of PW kill spells as well.
Michael Barnes
Most planeswalkers are trash. They're all answerable. This is such a dumb thing to complain about.
Sebastian Brown
no because the small portion that are good completely warp the game around them.
Nathaniel Garcia
All burn spells that target creatures should be able to target Planeswalkers as well.
Landon Walker
The biggest issue as I see it is that Magic wasn't designed for planeswalkers. There's no piece of the color pie dedicated to interacting with or dealing with them. Almost ten years after they were first introduced we're just now starting to see cards that can explicitly destroy them be commonly printed (and most of those are at high rarities).
If you want planeswalkers to fit into the game, it can be done, but some stuff has to be changed: >A color or colors need to be designated as the "deals with planeswalkers" color(s). >Stop printing walkers exclusively at mythic. They need to be evenly spread along all the rarities. Common walkers need to be a thing. >Fix the "non combat damage redirection" kludge even if it means errataing 10k+ cards to say "target player or planeswalker". Fix that and do it the right way going forward. >Get rid of planeswalker uniqueness and just make the story walkers legendary. It's not any sillier to have two different Gideons than it is to have two different Khamals. Various common walkers and what not might not even be legendary.
Right now they can't print more common answers because walkers themselves are not common enough for those cards to be universally useful. There's enough artifacts and enchantments for Naturalize to generally always have something to target, but until they can print:
They're just going to shit up the game, especially because every single one needs to be pushed to make it a chase rare for all the timmies.
Eli Barnes
Yes, my example of enchantments wasn't well worded. Idea was that having repetitive multiple effects on a stick is very strong the longer the game goes.
RDW in standard. Outside you'll mostly see new chandra in stompy/painter lists and valakut with jund for modern.
I might sound exaggerating, because I'm having harder and harder times to pick up a new deck in Modern that wouldn't have a planeswalker in it and appeal to me, while with time I've completely stopped playing standard and by now Legacy too, because of feeling forced to play walkers.
Try to see this from my perspective, I've played dreadstill for a very very long time, sticked to it after krosan grip printing, sticked to it when it got down to tier 3, then suddenly "oh.. I need jace". Sure, soon after more and more much better creatures appeared and already before that better finishers were available.
Problem is that if you want control in Legacy - you need jaces. You want to play black almost anywhere? Get lilys. It's not even about price, one could make an argument that FoW is a staple in blue control, just like jace and they'd be correct.
There always were "staple" cards for certain colors/decks, some would come and some would go away, with exceptions like bolt, FoW, etc. Yet strategies would change, finishers would change, creature layouts would change, often adapting to the meta and format - Things like jace and lily are simply too good, such that you're almost bound to play them in those colors, with fewer and fewer exceptions and because of their "generic" yet powerful effects they simply won't go away, as well as limit viable strategies to a certain extent.
Nathan Robinson
There's usually at planeswalker in every block that becomes 'must have overpowered card' and end up $30 at least, often the most valued cards at any one time in standard are planeswalkers. I've never built a deck outside of edh with planeswalkers, I find them unimaginative additions to decks.
They've toned some of them back a bit in recent blocks so they're more interesting than 'I win', by churning out creatures and removal. They seem to have a problem making planeswalkers in a moderate way, they're either weak or overpowered. And the overpowered ones are just dumb, no downside, goodstuff that become hideously sought after.
I'm glad some planswalker removal now exists, god I remember Dreadbore being a breath of fresh air. But planeswalker removal is usually rare (making planeswalkers a huge threat in limited), and sorcery speed. Much other removal meanwhile is specifically for creatures, I miss the versatility of Oblivion Ring and it's replacement Banishing Light.
I think the worst thing right now is that they're crammed in to every set because players apparently really like them, but they're mostly dull characters forcing along the tiresome Jacetice League thing they want to do.
Tyler Hernandez
>RDW in standard. Outside you'll mostly see new chandra in stompy/painter lists and valakut with jund for modern. None of those are Burn decks. Burn isn't a generic name for red decks.
Carson Walker
Top of the current modern meta >affinity - no pw >titanshift - no pw in most lists, some run a couple chandras >grixis DS - 1 or 2 of Liliana mainly in the sideboard >eldrazitron - 2 of of Karn or Ugin >naya burn - no pw >gifts storm - no pw >UW control - a few gideons/elspeth >Jeskai control - see above >Gx tron - playset of Karn and 2 of Ugin >DnT - no pw >counters company - no pw >abzan mdrange - playset of Liliana >bant eldrazi - no pw >lantern control - no pw
I don't want to make a list for legacy too but 90% of the decks run 2 of JtmS not because muh planeswalkers 2 stronk but because that card specifically is broken as fuck.
Adam Ortiz
>chase rare for all the timmies That's why they won't make them below mythic (and fluff reasons). MaRo is ecstatic about walkers and in his mind they're extremely successful and make packs sell, because people loved them when they first came out in Lorwyn and at that time asked for more of them.
He seems to be asleep on laurels from back then, imagining that people opinions didn't change one bit since then. He still complains about mechanics from 15 years back and how poorly designed cards were, yet can't admit that shit like jace and lily were mistakes.
Robert Robinson
I'm aware, that is why I continued with "I might sound exaggerating, because blah blah", to further add upon your notices and comments on me being hard to be taken seriously.
Gabriel King
Planeswalkers are an OKAY card type to me. However, they have been horribly used. My complaints/opinions:
>Planeswalkers should be more limited in their power
Generic goodstuff planeswalkers are cancer. However planeswalkers more tuned to certain strategies and uses are fine. Tezzeret Agent or Koth are powerful planeswalkers, however their power is limited to only certain strategies making them more fair. You don't just jam Koth in every red deck or Tezz with UB. Even Liliana of the Veil I would argue follows this rule. It's powerful but not every deck that is black wants her. You certainly wouldn't play her in control or any sort of combo, it favors a midrange grind strategy which is fine.
>there should be more ways to fucking remove planeswalkers
You can remove almost every permanent in the game with 1 mana and a specific answer, but not planeswalkers. Planeswalkers are so hyper protective that the removal for them is terrible.
>Emblems are lazy design
Making their big minus ability "you get an emblem that says your opponent loses and you get a mill dragon that makes your opponent discard lel" is just lazy cancer design.
>they should be printed less often
I believe showering every set in several planeswalkers is from a design perspective bad. You can't make 10 different Nissas a year because you are gonna run out of design space in green. Make a creature uh draw a card uhh.
>lastly planeswalkers should be more creative
Similar to my first point just making 3 planeswalkers every set that are generically powerful and say "tick up stall the board, tick down card advantage, tick way down slap your opponents deck with your penis" is boring. I believe their is more design space available but making them all good in generic midrange standard decks throttles their potential. I think planeswalkers like Ashiok, Venser, Sarkhan the mad and etc show that planeswalkers can be fair and interesting. Also print more cards that interact/kill them
Jose Flores
That's not the point. The point is simply that your original claim of Burn decks running Chandra is objectively wrong.
Adrian Cruz
no PWs: 7 (3 of which are combo decks) PWs: 5 Sometimes PWs: 2 (Grixis/Titanshift)
Iunno mate, shit's not looking good.
Christian Richardson
>tfw you run singleton needle in your SBs mainly to fuck with pws than have a flexible answer to multitude of shit.
Joseph Walker
Why should most archetypes be viable without walkers? It's a core card type. Building around having 0 walkers in your deck should be just as troublesome as no creatures or no lands or no instants. Possible if you're determined, sure, but a pain in the ass.
At some point you're going to have to learn how to cope with change
Brody Robinson
I'm fine with single planeswalkers, but anyone running walker decks are the biggest cancer I have ever played against and I seriously think they're on-par with man-wavers. They are that subhuman to me. Whenever I have to play against one it just feels like there's no feasible way in hell to divide your attacking resources to either kill or keep all the possible PW that can come down in-check. Whatever doesn't get chumped by a wall of disposable tokens and whatnot simply does damage to the least valuable threat. Hanging back on defense is a losing preposition as well because it just enables them to keep going and going. This isn't even a problem with EDH for me, there are two people at my LGS who run superfriends in standard and it's just as awful to deal with there because there's more than one of walkers. Gideon of the trials immediately making an emblem that lasts for the whole game while they just keep dropping AoZ or another otT. So now you not only have to whittle your opponent's life down, and deal with specifically gideons on top of that, while trying to keep all the other walkers from just going free reign to uptick or downtick as they please. It's just a miserable time. This combined with the fact that (good) walker interaction is almost non-existent. I hope you're running red for Hour of Devastation or you're fucked.
Thomas Moore
The problem is that they don't apply their NWO system to Planeswalkers. They think the idea of a card type built around options is going to be too complex from a principle standpoint, and shove them all to Mythic. They need to instead evaluate Planeswalker rarity on the complexity of their abilities.
C: +1- Scry 1. U: +1- Shuffle your library, then Scry 1. R: +1- Scry 1, then reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land card, you may put it into your hand. M: +1- Scry 1, then reveal the top card of your library. You may put that card into your hand or your graveyard. If you do, you lose 1 life.
Logan Scott
If you're able to play almost two thirds of the top meta without them i don't see them as excessively dominant. Every single deck in modern runs fetches and shocklands except some tier 3 jank like skred but i don't see people complaining about them as hard as PWs.
Brayden Gomez
Every color can interact with planeswalkers though. Every color has creatures that can kill them. This is on top of blue being able to beat them on the stack, red being able to burn them, and black having Hero's Downfall type cards.
Tyler Morris
Needle is as flexible as a sideboard card can be.
And if you compare that ratio to the ratio of every other card type it's probably the lowest.
Aaron Lee
For how long people have been complaining about control and/or combo, especially storm and eggs stuff? Outside of standard environments, those decks don't even make 1/3rd of the meta - but a lot of people hate them because of the inherit ways those decks work in.
Sure, there are extremely small minority that complains about fetches for "making games too long with shuffling", but otherwise - it's something we find normal and common.
By now, walkers aren't new - but they make both games and deck building "unfun" to a lot of people, which is different than having a proper manabase.
This is of course talking from game/deck building perspective, if we're talking about this from money perspective, land bases are being complained about way more than walkers.
Granted I'm biased against walkers, but they're simply much more frustrating to deal with than anything else. WotC talks about pushing their "fair" and "interactive" concepts, but walkers are neither of those in terms of design.
Colton Butler
I'd argue enchantments and probably even artifacts see less distribution per decks than pw's, if we're speaking strictly "does this deck uses X card type" obviously.
Jason Evans
>creatures Good fucking luck getting anything through. Burn isn't effective ether because the highest playable damage you can get in is 3, which most of the time is not able to kill the walker. Black hasn't had good interaction since Theros because of how bad BB1 sorcery speed with an "upside" is. Blue is powerless if one sticks.
Landon Jenkins
Would you say planes walkers are worse than other mythics? It seems to me like a larger percentage of planes walkers are good than other mythics
Tyler Adams
>Blue, the color of flying and unblockable, can't do anything about walkers
Nathaniel Baker
Fetches + shocks (or fetches + ABUR duals in legacy) are a problem to deckbuilding as well since they are so good and consistent that there is absolutely no reason not to run them unless you're going mono color, and there will never be any alternatives. Lands count for around 1/3 of the cards in your deck, and fetchlands in particular makes mana base building brainless and trivial.
Lucas Cook
>blue >playing creatures other than wincons
Asher Bennett
Every deck has to have mythics to be viable now? Yeah, suits Wizards perfectly.
Oliver Green
Fuck walkers.
Carter Diaz
Mythics should be OTT limited bombs and grandiose effects, not four of staples and format staples. I like mythics being huge legends and massive spells, edh fodder.
I don't like mythics being normal essentials like Relentless Dead, which doesn't seem very 'mythic' to me but is the only decent two mana zombie in the format.
Hunter Green
then maybe they should if they know they're going to need to play against walkers?
Adam Butler
Chalk me up in the "Fuck 'Walkers, but not bilious enough to make a thread about it" column.
Kevin Watson
Daily reminder that even Richard Garfield thought that Planeswalkers were a mistake and overly complex
Hunter Campbell
Around the time Planeswalkers were initially released, I thought they were stupid bullshit. I wasn't really playing at that point though, so I just kind of shrugged at it.
Later, I got a copy of Venser the Sojourner and thought "Hey maybe if these guys are just shitty enchantments it's actually fine."
I'm fine with how they operate in the game; I don't like them as creatures ie Jaya because that means colors like Green have a harder time dealing with them, and Red too if they were high toughness.
I don't know if they *should* have been made, but my cube enjoys having about 3 in each color. They can spice things up.
Hunter Garcia
Their design reminds me of YGO cards in the amount of things they are capable of doing.
Which would be fine, if this was YGO, where the current design is every card doing at least two things, but unfortunately it's not.
James Clark
hi maro
Oliver Cooper
I like walkers, but I think they're mishandled. Firstly, once I got my head around loyalty, I like the mechanic. In theory anyway. It's how long a friend'll stick around for you, but this isn't reflected mechanically.
Any new card type should theoretically warp the game around it. Equipment changed formats. Auras are laughed at. I think planeswalkers should have been designed to be less warping, yeah, but why introduce them if they're not going to change the game?
Story wise... I feel like it would still be shit given they don't seem to want to pay seasoned writers anymore, but forcing everything to be tied to the walkers makes it worse.
And Mythic is dumb all around. Between that and Masterpiece we're full Japanese CCGing now. Only thing we're missing is all girls being "18" and wearing skirts.
Planeswalker cards should be like any other card type. Useable at common, uncommon, and rare. Printed with the set and format balance in mind. Coated fairly across all CMCs. But they're none of those things, which is shit.
Aaron King
Don't print planeswalkers at common, I don't want that trash in my glorious Pauper format.
Grayson Edwards
>Only thing we're missing is all girls being "18" and wearing skirts. WotC is actually caring much more about SJW stuff, by writing autistic, transgender, etc characters and requesting artists to specifically paint PoC in their art, be it creatures or spells.
Generally, I really don't care - as long as it doesn't affect game play, but I just honestly prefer old art direction, rather than this computer generated bullshit we're getting since around planeswalkers were introduced (post lorwyn).
Jaxon Davis
You got a quote for this? I love the idea of Richard Garfield, PhD being like "nah, that shit is way too complex."
Joseph Martinez
I'm kind of in the same boat as you. At least Innistrad looked striking, and Scars felt more or less like Mirroden. But I don't think we'll get anything like Lorwyn or Shadowmore ever again, or get a plain where there are no walkers in the story, or where every main character doesn't have to be super generic (marketable) and relatable. I don't mind Samut's design like a lot of anons, but I mind that it we got it not because a writer thought it was a good idea but because marketing wanted more money.
And the more I dig into Magic lore again the more I maintain my stance that the only social group not represented well in Magic is fat people. We don't need marketing changing Wizards' designs, because Wizards did an okay job incorporating multiple ethnicities, female leads, nonhumans, nonattractive people, the young and old. Also Wizards, girls don't avoid Magic because every woman in the game is a beautiful bikini mage, but because the players are garbage people.
Jaxson Morales
OP, you're full of shit. GP Vegas Modern top8 had only one list running planeswalkers. GP Vegas Legacy top8 had one running them in main and another in sideboard.
I don't give a shit if you want to post your ramblings about the state of the game design, but don't make up shit to try to justify your autism.
Dylan Anderson
>Useable at common, uncommon, and rare.
Fucking this.
Could have had Planeswalkers w/ 1 or 2 abilities.
Or more that just drain.
Grayson Jones
Honestly, my ex-legacy group were very nice people. I got to borrow decks costing thousand of euros from people who have never met me before, play out a tourney and go home, got advice whenever I asked for one, if strange brews or rogues showed up, people were happy to see them, etc. Some of us play proxyed Vintage together still from time to time.
Both of my modern groups are cancer though, but they're filled with autists in their early 20s.
>Fat people not represented. Fat humans - sure. Fat "people"? Plenty.
Landon Wright
>common walker >1-3 to cast >3-4 loyalty >One -1 ability
Or
>uncommon walker >low starting loyalty >all abilities minor help, but all +1 meaning it's basically going to keep helping out until you murder it
Isaac Evans
I disagree with you, but respect your opinion.
Asher Thomas
Don't even disagree, just wanted to post this.
Carter Howard
Walkers and mythic rarity can fuck themselves.
Camden Flores
>There's usually at planeswalker in every block that becomes 'must have overpowered card' and end up $30 at least, often the most valued cards at any one time in standard are planeswalkers. Then why are there only 5 planes walkers that are more expensive than 50 dollars? I'm pretty sure we've had more blocks than that.
Liam Stewart
I was about to the say the exact same thing. Hate the push towards ~epic~ nerd-pandering that has happened over the last ten years. Hate the new art.
Sebastian Ward
agreed, planewalkers are poorly designed and too good. They don't count as a creature, so you have to have answers that explicitly targets a (nonland) permenent or planewalker.
I think a worse problem for magic is manabases though. At least make more manabases that are just as competitive.
Ayden Campbell
>They're all answerable. gideon ally and elspeth sc would like to have a word with you.
>oh i'll just sit behind a wall of goons forever
Jackson Diaz
>what is never? >what is counterspell? every format has answers to planeswalkers. (though white should get some planeswalker removal i believe)
Jaxson Peterson
What if planeswalker removal becomes primary in green?
Aiden Powell
Why would it be in green? B should start to get common creature/uncommon planeswalker, and W should get rare 4 mana wraths that also hit 'walkers. G needs to get more common artifact/enchantment hate that is actually good. R needs bolt. U should get 0 interaction barring colour pie bending
Robert Foster
>W should get rare 4 mana wraths that also hit 'walkers 4 for creatures and walkers? No. 4 mana wraths, yes. 5 mana for both. Otherwise Oblivion Ring is there for your walker removal. Or something like >1W enchant creature or planeswalker >creature can't attack, walker can't activate abilities
>U should get 0 interaction barring colour pie bending Bounce? Bounce already hits walkers. U for "Bounce target planeswalker" should be a fair (if never played) addition. Otherwise play Negate
Brody Clark
Most of the lower cost Blue creatures are generally really weak in either power or toughness area. They're either something like a 3/1 or a 1/4 so they don't really pressure planeswalkers all that much.
Brayden Bennett
Fuck walkers Literally the only way to deal with them is counters or burn. I fucking loathe them with a passion
Jose Nguyen
Hahahahahahahaha How The Fuck Is Dealing With Planeswalkers Hard Hahahaha Nigga Just Attack Them With A Creature Like Nigga Play Burn Spells Haha
Henry Anderson
>Opponent drops Elspeth Sun's Champion and uses her -3 to blow up your board >"In r-response I'll Hero's D-D-Downfall... heh..." Get a load of this guy, he think you don't automatically get 2 for 1'd when you try and remove walkers!
Christopher Stewart
Mythic rarity would be fine if every Mythic card was automatically restricted to one per deck like in Duels.
Levi Morgan
It would be fine if all of the power in a set wasn't concentrated there.
Jack Miller
MasterOfEtherium is that you?
Also while I agree, it would be nice to get some decent burn. We get shock and 3-mana 3 damage, while walkers get stronger.
Cooper Phillips
iirc the Jaya was from the past or something before sparking because Time Spiral. Also Jaya was technically a Proto Walker in a way.
David Anderson
>trades the ability to use an ability turn one for not being able to be attacked
If there's something I want out of Domineria, it's Spellshapers.
Christopher Sanchez
elspeth sun's champion is godawful in eternal formats and only sees play in a fringe prison deck that has won long before they ever actually cast a fucking 6 mana planeswalker.
Brandon Gutierrez
You're not alone. I quit magic over Planeswalkers, and I even own a Jace.
Evan Ross
>burn spell >killing a walker
Joshua Brooks
I've lost count to how many new players i have had to explain the planeswalker rules (especially damage redirecting). the only things close to the amount of headache that walkers cause to newbies i have seen is protection, banding and phasing.
Jeremiah Miller
Hopefully they Will make sure players know that that an mechanic..
Joshua Rivera
Because green is the shittiest fucking color because it has so little interaction, generally white has just as good artifact/enchantment hate as green
Gabriel Young
Summoning sickness?
Kevin Fisher
Spellshapers, Rebels, and Mercenaries were the Mechanics for Mercadian Masques, but players asked why there was nothing New as it was never called out.
Brody Torres
I'm pretty sure every color has some way to deal with Planeswalkers. For example, Green can blow up noncreature permanents.
Thomas Cooper
Man, i wish I had a Murder with an upside.
Jaxson Perez
Magic is not hard. I never got a lot of the complaints I hear about, but I only need a mechanic explained on earth. >haunt is haaaarrrrrrd Bullshit! Rebels and Spellshapers were fucking cool (I never personally used Mercenaries), and we'll be lucky if Wizards doesn't decide Spellshapers will confuse newbies or some shit. >Our market research shows that activated abilities that require multiple costs (tapping, mana, discarding) confuses and discourages players, and they especially dislike A: other players having reusable removal, and B: Spellshapers with shit overcosted abilities. Do the rules not have a page for walkers like every other card type? Or do they not print rule books anymore and everyone learns from word of mouth? Also yeah Protection has a lot of stipulations at first.
Jaxon Cook
306.7: If noncombat damage would be dealt to a player by a source controlled by an opponent, that opponent may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker the first player controls instead. This is a redirection effect (see rule 614.9) and is subject to the normal rules for ordering replacement effects (see rule 616). The opponent chooses whether to redirect the damage as the redirection effect is applied.
Zachary Garcia
>implying i bother letting the walker hit the board in the first place.
Angel Lee
Beast Within Bramblecrush Desert Twister
John Davis
"Fuck, let's just blow up everything" -Nicky B.
Michael Murphy
Exactly. Every color, even colorless, has access to some kind of removal that hits Planeswalkers. If someone can't be bothered to plan for a certain card type when deck building, then they deserve to live in their self-imposed misery.
Isaiah Ross
...
Eli Harris
>all these non-standard answers It's not a problem in formats where there are decent outs. Standard has no such solution, unless you're running red and can use Hour of Devastation which isn't even a guarantee, everyone else has to wait for another month and a half for all the fucking walker support to leave.
Wyatt Gomez
>1GG every other turn for a 7/7 rampage This isn't terrible since Phasing takes care of most of the awfulness. Throw in changelings for banding.
David Smith
Oh, yeah, standard didn't just have a cycle of cards printed that specifically hate on Planeswalkers. Oh, golly, whatever will we do?
Nicholas Price
Well yeah, but I'm less mad about planeswalkers than I am Wizards not giving us usable toys. Lightning Strike and Terror are to strong and no fun, okay Wizards. FoAffinity and free Eldrazi is balanced? That's cool. Naturalize? Elvish Mystic? Bounce at instant? No? Okay...
Austin Harris
That's like calling a bolt that only targets goblins good removal.
Robert Young
>Hates Planeswalkers with a passion Welcome to the big guy club
Carson Sullivan
Well for starters the gideon player would first have to actually swing with him. Ever play a walker deck? They're perfectly fine with just upticking Gideon of the Trials on your creature while they swing in with lands, advocates, and tokens.
Not to mention you have to be actually running the colors of the walker you want out and are actively dead in hand if they don't have that specific color of walker out on the board or in the case of things like Gideon's Defeat, can't actually do something unless they do it first.
Jace Hughes
Would you like me to post broader Standard answers to Planeswalkers? Because, I can do that. >oh no, I have to be playing specific colors to run specific answers Well, no shit. If you want to deal with a Planeswalker, then run a color that has the answer you fucking want.
Chase Ramirez
phasing does not reset the counters the costs are Turn 3: 1GG Turn 5: 2 Turn 7: 3 Turn 9: Dies to fading
Jose Lopez
You might not want to use BB1 sorcery speed removal. It's been firmly established how bad that is against walker decks. Because you have to take a turn off to kill one walker and then more come down. >inb4 just attack it Seeing as how the walker that was destroyed was probably either a Nissa or Gideon (Trials), that means that the gideon already did his job of making the emblem and they can block, or depending on what walkers they put down invalidate your creature.
And it's not just "you have to be playing specific colors to run answers". It's "If you want to deal with that Gideon swinging in, then you have to be running white and hope that they actually do swing in". Gideon's defeat does nothing against, say Dovin.
Ian Barnes
I hate that Planeswalkers are really just broken ass enchantments rather than the cool concept they originally were
Cheap walkers were a mistake
Camden Clark
Those are completely insufficient, you know it, I know it, and you are a shithead for even bringing them up.
What we need is a one mana instant that kills any planeswalker, no limitations, no questions asked. And even that is honestly not enough because most of them have overpowered abilities they can activate as soon as they're played.
