Paizo Games General /pgg/ (also /pfg/)

Because Paizo, which can't into science if their life depended on it, tried to give the class science-y fluff, but they ended up making a class that's both mechanically weak and has garbage fluff.

That reminds me of Rory's fister robot girl with backdoors programmed into her for bully abuse

You dont need to go gunslinger at all, spellslinger wizard archetype (while utter shit for a wizard) will get you proficiency, gunsmithing, and make your firearm(s) a/n arcane gun. Arcane gun lets you cast ranged touch, line, ray or cone through it. Giving you a few extra options when not using spellstrike.

Repostin' Starfinder Leaks Imgur Album before bed: imgur.com/a/Krs3S

You don't need to reprogram a robot girl to bully her, but it sure as hell opens many more doors.

>tfw command words to run lewd subroutines, like disabling her speech for a little while, or making all of her tactile sensors operate at higher capacities

app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/83277/the-fiends-and-intrigues-of-house-karvane (closes in a week)
app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/85043/bones-and-bed-shackles (closes in two weeks)
app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/85418/mint-rebels-double-treason (closes in two weeks)

What are your favourite and least favourite apps so far out of recruiting games, /pgg/?

What's so bad about the envoy?

How does the envoy stack against the operative?

I can't get over how bad ysoki are as an option, there's no point in ever choosing one as a race.

How are they bad?

R.I.P. Cute rats, nobody will want to play one.

Why are Daredevil and Thief operatives so ass?

Why, oh WHY do they not have the +4 to Trick Attack?

it doesn't help that the art is Liefeld levels of terrible,

>gets flat DR starting at second level
>solarions onslaught
Its not a great class, sure, and desperately needs something given to it at 5th level, but its solid enough and is better than Envoy.

Uh, if your DM only allows core races and you want something small to ride your robot?

>the theorycraft already begins but not compared to SF bestiary, but PF one
oh great you faggots did not learn anything

>gets flat DR starting at second level

Which you spend your fucking MOVE ACTIONS on.

And that means no full attacking for you, bub.

Solarian = ass.

Fucking Redwall mouse garbage replacing grungy skaven image they try to paint them as.

Plus the fucking hamster racial trait is dumb and useless. Especially in a vacuum.

And it lasts until you use your Revelation.

It takes a single move action to gain DR.

You are fucking illiterate if you think you have to spend a move action every turn to keep it up.

>This benefit lasts for 1 round or until you leave graviton mode.

Solarians suck dick.

Full attacks mean 2 attacks unless you are Soldier
Losing them is not as big of a deal in SF

Mint Rebels GM here
apparently I fucked up and forgot to add the bit about save defences into houserules. It's now in, this should be the last change.

Read the whole text again, specifically the second paragraph under the "Stellar Revelation" ability. It last 1 round or until you leave the "stance" whichever is LONGER

>a revelation that says it lasts for 1 round or until you leave the associated mode lasts for whichever of these durations is longer.
Like I said, you are fucking illiterate if you think you have to spend a move action every turn to keep it up. Can't say I blame you, of course it looks bad when you can't read how it works.

From what's been leaked, Operative wins in 99% of situations.

Envoy just kinda stops at 8th level. There are no new class features, talents, or abilities after that point. The abilities they do get are all lackluster at best; you don't get anything even close to being as reliable as Bardic Performance, combined with the worst action economy I've seen from an SF class. They do get an ass load of skills (but not all the skills!), but no way to apply them in combat, outside of a few talents.The class feels honestly feels like an Investigator without Studied Combat or Extracts and with a gimped skill list. If your game is almost entirely social situations, I could see an Envoy being useful, but as-is? Fuck, I wouldn't want one in my party.

Comparatively, Operative has the same base stats, but better proficiencies, bonuses to Initiative, a built in way to apply their skill bonuses in combat against anything (the class requires you to make a skill check to get sneak attack, rather than needing flank), your sneak attack automatically debuffs or applies statuses, your abilities scale nicely giving a ton of options, and you get a flurry of blows look-alike to compensate for how wussy small arms are.

I can see very, very few types of campaigns where an Envoy is preferable to an Operative.

Does... does the envoy not even have high-level talents like every other class?

Wow, holy shit, the envoy is balls.

You don't get knocked out of attunement for casting a revelation unless it's a zenith revelation.

You spend your move action, and you keep that DR for as long as you're still in gravity mode. The one round minimum would only come into play if you were at 3 attunement, used your move for the DR, and then immediately used a zenith revelation in the same round.

Envoy is the buffmancer, not a fighting class.
You're supposed to get clever attack and improved get 'em by level 6 to give your entire party +4 to hit while still attacking yourself.

>for whichever of these durations is longer.

Where does it say that?

The one round minimum also comes up any time you use a revelation outside of combat, because you can't attune out of combat.

>You're supposed to get clever attack and improved get 'em

But both of those take standard actions?

Full attacking as ANY class in SF is bad idea. The penalties are incredibly overpowering at -4 each attack for all of two attacks.

Ah, k, the stellar revelations rule.

Wait a minute, what the fuck, Graviton Attunement is just +Reflex? WHY?

What do you think about a vampire PC? What race/class works better for them?

...

Which can be important if you are caught by a slow moving, high mass object in microgravity. Not being squishy for a few seconds can save your life.

>Wait a minute, what the fuck, Graviton Attunement is just +Reflex? WHY?
Neither of the modes are very good. The reflex bonus does help since you have a bad reflex save. The extra damage from the photon mode is super small also.

Watching all this talk about Solarian vs Envoy vs Operative and I just wanna make a Soldier.

At least Photon's damage is relevant and scales.

Can someone please post the classes again?

Soldier is pretty rad. It's what Fighter always should have been.

There are mechanically superior races then Ysoki. For one they only get 2HP but they have a racial trait called Cheek Pouches in which they store an item in their mouth and can transfer it to their hand. Not only is this useless in an environment where they can't open their mouth, like say fucking space, but it doesn't seem that superior to pulling something out of your pocket.

Why can't Paizo balance for shit?

>Solarian vs Envoy vs Operative

Whoah there, don't insult operative.

It's a good class, unlike shitty solarian, and SUPER shitty envoy.

Using "two-weapon fighting" does reduce the penalty, so we're looking at -2 after that and a class penalty reduction.

There's actually a pretty decent chance that it'll be the strongest combat option in Starfinder because it won't be completely fucked by the inherent system design and won't require any feats to enter. Right now it's only a matter of math, which'll require minuet details to determine.

It's useful for fellatio, though.

I noticed... but it's that combo is literally all the Envoy has. I get the intent, but the execution is fucked beyond recognition. Envoy is shit as a buffmancer, especially when compared to the Bard, because nothing scales, it gains no new methods of assisting, and it's not even in the same ballpark in regards to utility.

What about Operative, who can make 4 attacks in a full-attack?

I hope you do! Soldier looks fucking fantastic.

SF operates on different math than PF
everything does not need to scale to be good

>everything does not need to scale to be good
Basically every RPG ever needs scaling for its abilities. Any ability that doesn't scale immediately becomes arse, for the most part.

Really? I'd take +3 to reflex over +4 damage at 18th level any day

The leaks start here
>Not only is this useless in an environment where they can't open their mouth, like say fucking space, but it doesn't seem that superior to pulling something out of your pocket.
First, It's a swift action to go between mouth and hand. Second, you're not always going to be in space. Also they get a +2 engineering, stealth, and survival, which combined with their +2 to dex/int make them really good operative and mechanics

Unless a CR 20 enemy has the same AC as a CR 6 enemy, then, uh, that argument is false.

Imgur album is here

>mako mankanshoku sucking gamagori's dick.jpg

Dhampir Sorceror (Wildblooded - Sanguine)
Dhampir Wizard (Cruoromancer)
Dhampir.....

You get the idea. Go vampire vampire vampire vampire if possible in terms of stacking. In 3.x you used to be able to be a Half-Vampire Monstrous Vampire Vampire Lord Master Vampire with the Vampire bloodline. Try to recreate that.

Reflex is still dogshit, you know.

>Also they get a +2 engineering, stealth, and survival

Oh wow, a +2 bonus to THREE SKILLS!

Give me a fucking break, user.

The real reason is the lack of old full attack
You no longer need to beat monster AC by over 10 points reliably to hit all multiple attacks.
Mark Seifter talked about it. Monster AC scales in sync with raw BAB, because you no longer need to beat the monster AC + 10 to hit with all 3 attacks
It makes even small bonuses still valuable

To be fair, until we get the spell list, we don't know that.

Almost everything I've seen targets Ref or Fort.

We don't really know that desu, and we also don't know how potent blasting spells are. If SF!Fireball is powerful enough to shave off half or more of a high level creature's HP instantly, then Reflex is now useful.

I don't think Paizo is good enough at math to make the system scale that way in practice, but sure, let's accept your premise.

So from level 6 onward, the Envoy is going to spend every round using two abilities, and only two abilities?

Every single complaint I have seen about balance so far has been either someone not fully reading the ability, or someone saying that a starfinder ability would be bad in pathfinder. Like yeah, no shit. They use the same mechanics, but they are separate games for a reason.

You do not have to.
Every fight does not need the buffs, you can just shoot people on your own too.

We don't have a bestiary or published modules yet. There's no way of putting any of this shit to the test.

You would think that an envoy and an operative would pair well with one another, but they do not, because while an envoy's best improvisation involves flat-footing enemies, that is what the operative can do for themselves.

Never mind that the envoy is an extremely watered-down bard/investigator hybrid, whereas the operative is an impressive skill monkey extraordinaire and straight-up killer.

While saddled with dinky weapons, and no class features or abilities to support that shooting.

Go compare Envoy and Operative. Do it.

The envoy is anemic as fuck.

We have First Contact for a bestiary you know.

Being able to drag items in and out of your inventory as a free action is nice, but it's still not exactly a feature I'd call "great". Being able to prepare items to be pulled out on a swift within major limitations might barely scratch "okay" if there ends up being items good enough to abuse this way. A bonus to three skills definitely won't be amazing in this system either, there're things we have to wait on seeing but even assuming the best of the three skills, and skills in general, it's still going to be less powerful than Skilled or what the Lashunta get.

If anything can salvage Ysoki at all, it's the Moxie racial trait. Odds are that it'll be too situational to take advantage of, largely being a list of defensive features, but there's a chance that the game meta won't end up DELETE and that tripping or "off-kilter" are significant enough to be of serious consideration, but I don't think odds are good.

+2 DEX/+2 INT isn't quite as good as one might think anyways. The ability score system is that you add your modifiers before buying with 10 points at 1-1.

With this in mind, your starting score on Ysoki with a relevant theme should look like 8/13/10/12/10/10. If you go full into your key scores we're getting 8/18/10/17/10/10.

Assuming you're working with something really counter-productive like a Kasatha, you're stuck with a score like 12/18/10/10/12/10 using the same rules, which is worse but potentially still workable. With other races less counter-productive and keeping in mind how ability scores progress now, racial stats are going matter less now than they ever have.

You have not even SEEN THE WEAPONS YET
AND YOU CANT UNDERSTAND THE IDEA OF BEING ABLE TO HIT WITH JUST 3/4 BAB ALONE

Why does Get 'Em give a bonus to damage rolls only if you spend the Resolve Point?

Does that not make Get 'Em rather bad?

Shit dude, I'm loving the look of the Soldier. Armor Storm with Bombardier or Arcane Assailant as its secondary is basically everything I want out of a soldier.

Need to figure out what theme to go for for the character, though.

How would an Envoy-Solarian gestalt compare to the other non-gestalt classes?

Which one should be more common: Wizards or Sorcerers?

>You have not even SEEN THE WEAPONS YET
I've seen the weapons Envoys can wield from the pregen and the bestiary.

>AND YOU CANT UNDERSTAND THE IDEA OF BEING ABLE TO HIT WITH JUST 3/4 BAB ALONE
Friendo, you seem awful confident in something you haven't seen. Pretty sure you're talking out your ass.

Wizards in Golarion but otherwise this does depend on the setting and how widespread magical education is. Sorcerers tend to operate on narrative numbers in every setting so you can probably ignore them and focus on the wizard count.

We have Mark Seifter's word

Wizards. Anyone can train to become a wizard. Not everyone will be good at it, but they can at least try. Not everyone can be born with a magical bloodline and innate magical power.

His word is worth less than StarToad's.

He and Logan fucking made the math to the game
So just shut up

Anyone with 10 Int or higher can stare at books all day long to learn to cast Prestidigitation, but Sorcerers need to be born with The Power.

can make an argument for either wizards with a trained data program downloaded into the brains of the youth or sorcerers with genetic engineering to have one bloodline always percent say draconic red with the best of the best becoming dragon disciples

Paizo cannot math to save their lives.
This has been proven time and again.
And if the math for SF was just as fucked as the PF math, do you think they'd tell anyone?

I'll believe this magical RPG system where scaling is irrelevant because everything fits together perfectly when I fucking see it.

>paizo
>math
>>>>>balance
Are you really doing this?

Well let's have this conversation at October so you can actually prove it

But, after a couple of generations, wouldn't sorcerers be pretty common? If you track down your family linege it's pretty likely that you will find that you are descendant of a powerful figure, scion of family, bastard, whatever. Go back enough and you will find that most people alive today are descendants from a small sample of people.

Sorcerers, you can have them popping up among primitive tribes whereas wizards need books and teachers and shit.

Let's.

In the meantime, I'll base my opinions off First Contact, the Paizocon response, and the other classes printed in the goddamn book, and say the Envoy is a dumpster fire.

You can't just claim your heritage, you're born with The Power and that's it. You could be the literal son of a Gold Dragon, and just weren't born with The Power and there's nothing you can do about it even if you're a Half-Dragon.