/osrg/ Old School Revival In Particular

>What OSR system has the best stats for dragons?
OD&D, personally. It's the combination of there only being six types, the five chromatic being of uncertain Neutral/Chaotic alignment, AC being capped at 2, and dragon breath being based on MAXIMUM hit points.
I can see the appeal of Basic's "damage equal to CURRENT hit points" thing, but I prefer the OD&D one. Makes them more dangerous.

Also, no Claw/Claw/Bite routine. That's a plus.

OD&D has silver and copper coins, user. Treasure Type C even gives everything BUT gold coins! Trash coins are important so you have to decide whether they're worth the weight, y'know.

And electrum and platinum are mentioned as an option, I guess, but aren't in any treasure tables so who gives a fuck.

How do you justify negative levels as game design?

It's a temporary setback.
It's also a blunt way of saying "barreling through this door will end badly", even to high level characters.

Against low-level characters, negative levels are mostly just equal to normal hits.

Against high-level characters, negative levels are terrifying but also less at the same time less terrifying than, say, poison or other instant death effects.

But yeah, what said except add in some stuff about geometric XP progression and a contrast with death starting you over from level 1.

Also, well, the whole thing where levels don't really give you as much as magic treasure does. Fuck, a +2 sword makes you hit better than a dude three levels higher than you. Five levels, in some cases. The damage probably still puts you above the guy six levels higher than you, I think, and definitely so for the +3 sword.

>negative levels are terrifying but also less at the same time less terrifying than, say, poison or other instant death effects
Apart from not allowing a saving throw?

The hit still needs to land
Your AC can get pretty spooky

Well, yeah, but negative levels at best cripple you temporarily while a single bad roll against a weak poisonous critter can instantly kill a 130th-level Fighter.

This is especially true in OD&D, where SUCCEEDING on the saving throw vs. poison still has it do half damage. Poison OP, pls nerf. (they nerfed it)

Yeah, but the level 130 fighter can just be brought back with a Raise Dead, which is a fifth level spell and doesn't harm the caster any. Restoration is a seventh level spell and ages the caster by several years. Barring Restoration, the only thing you can do is find ten other dungeons of your level to grind yourself back up on the level you were.

Literally dying is easier to manage than losing a level.

>Barring Restoration, the only thing you can do is find ten other dungeons of your level to grind yourself back up on the level you were.
Barring Raise Dead, the only thing you can do is rot.
>Literally dying is easier to manage than losing a level.
Losing a level is literally managed by normal play.

You're missing the point.

Death is fixed by a fifth level spell, with very little risk or drawback. Losing a level can be fixed either by a risky seventh level spell with a huge cost, or by many sessions and dungeon crawls.

Level loss is like taking away shit you already did and running off, and you'll never see it again unless you find some powerful cleric willing to shave years off his life for your benefit. It's way worse than just dying.

Levels don't actually matter much in OSR, though. That's the thing - much of character power is invested in magical items, wealth and hirelings: things that are entirely independent of level.

Also, again, if you die the standard thing is to restart as a FIRST-LEVEL CHARACTER. After Raise Dead this changes a bit, yes - but Raise Dead was designed with limitations in mind, like "you need to make a survival check for it to succeed or be forever unraisable" and "can't be raised more times than your CON score". (These were removed from Basic, true, but personally I'm not too fond of that. The game was originally designed with Raise Dead being risky, in any case.)

And then there's the whole thing with geometric progression: if you lose enough levels to knock you down to level 1, you'll be back at name level before the rest of the party has gained a single level.
Because level progression at name level is slow as fuck.

Also, well, you know how name-level Clerics BTFO any energy drainer who even looks at them? And how said energy drainers usually require actually hitting the enemy? Yeah.

>taking away shit you already did and running off, and you'll never see it again
God forbid you meet a rust monster, or you'll never hold a sword again!

It can make 8th level characters run screaming from a ghost like Scooby and Shaggy.

That's about it. But nothing else quite does that, especially with easily available Raise Dead spells. Fear effects just mean the GM is controlling your character for a while. Level loss scares *players*.

It means they need a cleric who can turn undead, or some magic to go toe to toe. Otherwise, the ghost appearing means it's time to fuckin run.

If you wanted to soften it a little, you could have levels return after a period of convalescence. Sort of like in LotR, where characters touched by a wraith have to rest for weeks, and are never quite the same.

I've hated raise dead for a long time. It's not just that it lowers the stakes... it's that it makes so many events sort of ridiculous. Why are there assassins in a game where anyone with the means or connections can get raised?

I know there's a lot of necessary suspension of disbelief, but that's sort of where I draw the line.

Then again, I don't do insta-death poison either... nothing more dull than saying "Uhhh you feel a pin prick your finger through the keyhole, and you're dead". Instead, I have deadly poison do damage over a course of hours, and you either need an antidote or enough magical healing to keep you from succumbing.

I thought wanted to discuss nechanics?
Why are you only going as far as
>it rubs me the wrong way
?

>It's way worse than just dying.
You have a significant % chance of staying dead forever.
If you pass, you eat into a finite number of deaths.

You can relevel as many times as you'd like.

>You can relevel as many times as you'd like.
Also, you'd be doing that anyway and since you keep magic items and wealth and whatnot you would end up more powerful at the end of the releveling than before you ran into the Wraith or whateverthefuck.

Also, most XP coming from GP means that levels are mostly just an emergency fallback for the situations where you're stuck in a fight - and even then the odds are in your favor for escaping. You can totally go for the higher-level loot on the lower floors of the megadungeon as a lower-level character, you just need to be skittish about it.

>You can relevel as many times as you'd like.
There are only so many dungeons and big monsters in the world to do it.

>levels are mostly just an emergency fallback for the situations where you're stuck in a fight
Yeah? What about higher level spells then? What about better saving throws? It's not just hit points and shit.

If you think levels don't matter at all, why not just ditch experience points altogether and stick to level 1 forever?

I prefer a mix of 3e's "negative levels" with a "save or ACTUALLY lose a level" mechanic in the vein of TSR D&D.

>There are only so many dungeons
That's bullshit and you know that's bullshit.

In other words, nothing the characters do in the game matter? There'll be infinite bad guys to beat and their plots to thwart, and infinite treasure to bring back from the depths to fuck up the economy with?

Monsters give experience. Most of the treasure is for experience. Experience is the very word for growth, improvement, and great memories. It gets you mightier spells, better skills, castles and retainers, fame and renown. It's the main reward for most adventures: swords and other magical treasure are just there to help out.

Just having it all torn away without a warning or a saving throw is the worst punch in the gut. Getting told that it's not a big deal, that you should just go back to get some more, is moronic. Being said it's somehow *less* important than the +2 sword you picked up from the tomb floor is asinine: it's like saying the super suit is what makes Iron Man what he is, rather than the life experience and knowledge and knowing how to build that shit.

I fucking hate energy drain. There's no justification for it to be there, and anyone that argues it should be there, at least in its current kick-in-the-balls state, is a grognard of the worst order.

Go back to Dungeon World, storyfag.

>What about higher level spells then?
Only relevant for a few classes, and honestly you can get often get away with clever use of the ones you have to hit above your weight class?
>What about better saving throws?
An emergency fallback for a situation where you fucked up.

Basically, it's the OSR mantra of "if you need to roll, you fucked up". You got hit by a trap you could have avoided, got in a fight you shouldn't have, and got caught above your ears in shit.

If you're out of bad guys, plots and treasure, congratulation! You've now won D&D. You can now go home to your father and say say "Yes, I AM winning, Dad".
Rejoice, user, for you have tasted the nectar of the gods!

>It's the main reward for most adventures: swords and other magical treasure are just there to help out.
What the fuck kind of number-munching games are you playing? The treasure is the reward in and of itself - experience is at best a tertiary concern, an added safety-net.

Levels don't get you castles and retainers, fame and renown - hard cash gets you the first two (remember, D&D has never "automatically given a castle at name level", despite what some may claim), and hard cash can also buy you some of the latter. Mostly fame and renown comes from actual actions rather than abstract "experience", though. If you're a famous dragon-slayer, it's because you slayed yourself some dragons. (Or spread false rumors about it, I guess.)

Seriously, though, consider what magical shit gives you. Take an OD&D Fighter and give them +2 sword and plate, and you know what you get? A Fighter with the saves and hit rates of a Fighter three levels higher, with slightly less hit points but also way better AC. (AC0 is some shit in OD&D.)
If your high-level Fighter dies or is inconvenienced, congratulations! Your new guy has a significant head-start. It's more roguelite than roguelike, if that makes sense.

Storygames tend to care less about levels, this is WotC bullshit.

It's effective *because* it's a big deal.

It says "if you charge an undead creature that sucks the life out of you, you're an idiot". If you have enough levels to get butthurt about losing them, you have enough experience and magic to play it smart.

That said, I agree that the danger should be clear from the get-go. I don't think it's fair to have ghosts pop out of the walls and drain levels willy nilly. It should be a rare and terrifying possibility, telegraphed well in advance.

>What the fuck kind of number-munching games are you playing?
Me? Look at what you're saying lower down:
>Take an OD&D Fighter and give them +2 sword and plate, and you know what you get? A Fighter with the saves and hit rates of a Fighter three levels higher, with slightly less hit points but also way better AC.
That is number-crunching if I've ever seen any. You're equating life experience, scars of at least four or five battles to death, many deadly dungeon jaunts with a flickering torch on, to some fucking +2 gear. You're saying the exact thing I complained about: that some magic items make you the equal of a grizzled war veteran, because "the numbers say so". Experience gives you more than a bit higher numbers, you math-freak.

Besides, you're still just talking about fighters. What about the wizards? What do they get, when they lose all their best spells and can't even wield your precious +2 sword the right way?
>Only relevant for a few classes
Yeah, like the fucking Raise Dead and Resurrection talked about previously. Clerics and wizards aren't just "a few classes", they're half the fucking game.
>honestly you can get often get away with clever use of the ones you have to hit above your weight class?
Most of the once powerful first level spells become near worthless a few levels in. Sleep stops working, Charm Person won't do shit when you start to fight more undead, Magic Missile won't keep up because your level is too low. I'd rather just upgrade to a fucking Fireball and blow it all up.

>It's effective *because* it's a big deal.
According to assholes like , no it isn't.

Just charge the fucking vampire, who cares about a couple lost levels and precious memories! You'll get those back soon anyway!

My personal favorite alternative to energy/level drain is artificial aging. Instead of losing levels, you get older (humans would age 1 year per level drained, dwarves 5, and elves 10 or something like that).

This allows it to be potentially reversed with some effort, but it's entirely possible to be killed by it as well if you don't flee.

>Your new guy has a significant head-start.
Generously assuming your body is recoverable, the rest of the party (and their retainers) called dibs.

No, I'm suggesting that you should probably run away from the vampire... but also that level drain is generally still better than character death for the majority of the game (remember, it takes a long time to get Raise Dead), and isn't all too onerous to recover from.
Because you'd already be doing the exact same shit anyway.

So AD&D ghosts?

Also, that's kind of hella ineffective and nonthreatening. The dreaded vampire now drains two years from the character - in ten hits he might make them middle-aged! Oh no!

I'll be honest, I'd probably worry more about the actual damage from those ten hits than the aging. On the other hand, each hit the default one does is effectively three. There's a grave difference in threat there.

If you aren't playing with inheritance rules you're fucking over players that already got fucked and you're kind of an asshole.

>they're half the fucking game.
>more than 1 MU/Cleric per 5 Fighters

I was spitballing numbers. You can always decide that a vampire drains an entire decade from humans, a quarter century from dwarves, and a half century from elves. Adjust up or down to taste.

It has the benefit of being deadly and an effect most players won't want on their character, with the upside of being potentially reversible with magic.

I don't think any edition includes memory loss. I describe it more like being shattered by contact with the dark forces from beyond death.

I don't know what to say to the other points. Of course it's a big deal for the character, but it's all just a game. Characters die and shit. Part of the draw of old school rules is that there are stakes.

And like others have said--if you're foolish enough to get knocked from name level back to level one, you'll regain most of that before your allies hit the next level.

There's really no reason to spend 6-10 rounds in melee with a goddamn ghost! Run away! Fight with magic and divine protection if you really have to! This is why player skill matters, and why it's rewarding to retire a character as one of the most powerful mortals in the setting.

So you admit that character levels are something more than a "safety-net"?

That's really all I'd want you to say.

It wasn't me who said that, so I can't refute it. Seems like a matter of opinion and playstyle. I'm just saying there's a gameplay rationale for level drain, and that it offers more than just meanie GM powertripping.

Certainly losing levels matters more to classes with a lot of scaling abilities (like spells or thief skills). Seems like yet another reason not to have your wizard charge at a ghost with a pointy stick.

>playing with inheritance rules

>Obsessive Sperg Rampage

2hu has bouts of OSRfaggotry that end when he remembers how little opportunity there is to min-max, but he always keeps well away from /osrg/.

Who's 2hu?

For your sake, never find out.

You're only making me more curious.

Hey guys, Comeliness user here. I just wanted to apologize for causing some confusion earlier by being vague, hope nobody got too angry.

To clarify, I actually didn't intend to imply using the UA rules; in fact, I would call the stat Appearance. I just went with Comeliness in the thread because that was the word the other user used. I would have made up my own effects of it, but I was way too unclear about that.

Again, sorry for the confusion and kinda accidentally baiting you guys.

No problem. Assumptions were made, it happens. No one got angry. I was the user who was asking you if you were using the UA version and what kinds of problems that would entails.

Consider me curious about what you come up with for Appearance.

>What OSR system has the best stats for dragons?
I'm a fan of how ACKS handles them, it's flavorful and varied without getting overly complicated

>How do you justify negative levels as game design?
don't use them myself, they're just more trouble than it's worth(but then I prefer to tone down OSR lethality in general anyways, as my liking for OSR isn't really in relation to it's playstyle, it's mostly for being a solid rules base that's easily modifiable to what I want to use)

>Basically, it's the OSR mantra of "if you need to roll, you fucked up". You got hit by a trap you could have avoided, got in a fight you shouldn't have, and got caught above your ears in shit.
I've never liked that aspect to the OSR, it basically means in an ideal game you never actually use any of the rules for anything

Imagine the abstract nougatty ideals of /pfg/
But replace all the tit-foxes with touhou fanart.
That's basically the aspie known as 2hu.
Also, his posts are all 2000 characters.

Post mechanics?

I'm not really sure when "combat is a failure state" became our catchphrase, but it's a really shitty one.
You should absolutely get into (carefully rigged (unless you've 2 or 3 HD up your enemies)) fights all the time.

>in an ideal game you never actually use any of the rules for anything
True, but not quite in the sense you're referring to.
You should only make/use rules for things you can't fairly and consistently arbitrate.

...

Those questions are very broad and he hasn't even read the books yet. I don't think he'll get a lot of replies.

He could probably bring his stuff here on /osrg/. It'll bring better traction here.

>Muh 2e isn't OSR
Anons would sperg and kick him out of here

Pretty sure it's just one particularly loud asshole, two at most.

Classes are fluffed well and the magic system rules.

Apart from what other anons have already said, the game also has a good design philosophy, with good thoughts on treasure and magic items and monsters.
>Keep treasure low, make sure you know where it all comes from
>Magic items are rare and powerful, magic weapons each have awesome special abilities
>Monsters are mysterious and scary, never just "a goblin"

Also, some of the coolest adventures I've seen anywhere. Purple Planet is the shit.

How do you manage cursed items? Most books say they're virtually identical to non-cursed ones and only reveal themselves at the worst possible moment, but I'd like to give them a chance to notice.

Related note: any good special abilities added to a cursed -2 sword?

>sell me on Dungeon Crawl Classics, esteemed analons
Watch Slayers. It's basically DCC, up to and including the bell-bottoms and retarded puns. If you want your games to be like that, go for it.

What is an OSR with a more heroic gameplay, if i want to do a hack and slash without players dying(so fast but i still like challenge)

AD&D 2e is probably the closest you get. Even first level PCs have enough options, customization, and kits available to make your characters reasonably formidable from the get go, yet far from invincible.

...

As much as i like AD&D 2e i always feel the need to streamline the rules

The poison ring from Skerples dungeon is a 10/10 cursed item.
It works fantastic. Riiiiiight up until it gets you.
At which point it inconvenient, but still possibly worth using.

>any good special abilities added to a cursed -2 sword?
"Always appears in your hand when you try to attack" has niches uses,

Speaking of which, it's good to put some variety into keeping cursed items.
The spearthatkeepsstabbingyourfoodgoddamnit is grafted to your wrist, but hey! Free hand...

try the BRUTAL rpg

What do you guys do with acquiring new spells?

The idea of having magic users need to search for their spells in dungeons and or copy them from scrolls is super cool to me.

Anyone haves heroes & other worlds pdf?

Haven't run my first game yet but I was honestly just going to have them roll for a random spell from the chart to start and then have them find spells in dungeons

Maybe, MAYBE an occasional MU NPC sitting around willing to sell his spells.

Not even the PDF Share Thread has that.

He's asking where in the dungeon they would be stashed, and what they'd look like.
Kind of boring if it's all just scrolls in chests.

Could someone look over these character sheets? I need some feedback on a new class I cobbled up in ACKs, and a few modifications of a previous one I did a while back.
pastebin.com/r0nWgfXa
pastebin.com/16TvLTv3

In DCG, Wizards only learn spells that they find in other wizard's spellbooks, otherwise when they level they roll random spells. This plus a couple other mechanics lead wizards to be covetous, backstabbing, murderous power gluttons constantly scheming to steal more scrolls and spellbooks. It really works well for the tone of the game

While I am curious about that, I just wanted to know what everybody did in particular.

>We hope he has gone to rest
I like the implication that he might not be at rest, and his ghost is out fucking up bears still. That seems like a neat random encounter.

Remember that "spellbooks" will vary from culture to culture! A dwarven spellbook might well be a 600-pound leaden slab. Elves might have an elaborate floral clock, where you have to view a glade at the right time of day to read the spells.

Of course, depending on setting. DCG is old school "dwarf is a class" so wizards are almost always human but your setting may vary.

One of my favorite spellbook alternatives was Warhammer where Bright Wizards, who manipulated fire, would have their spells tattooed on their arms or inscribed in metal jewelry so it wouldn't burn up.

eh, gay

>so wizards are almost always human
Or cats piloting headless bodies through an elaborate series of levers and pulleys.
Or outcast dwarves with 3 knees (opposed to the standard 0), and legs to match.
Or funny looking elves from below the cliff at the end of the world.
Or betwitched rotten logs.
Or vat grown organless things wrought of bile.
Or braces of gnomes, one over the other, in trenchcoats.
Or industrial sewing machines, run off on the dreams of their now soulless laborers.
Or orangutans with spiders for fur.
Or stillborns, animate and stretched across frames (to non-baby proportions).

I just want to say that this book is great and I'm sad that I never see anything written about it in these threads. It's a great tome and includes lots more other stuff than just the reprinted Grimtooth books.

somehow you took post and got to a new level of dumb and gay!

>A dwarven spellbook might well be a 600-pound leaden slab
I mean, if you want dwarven magic users to not even be able to dungeon crawl, you might as well remove them from the game.

What is the OSR equivalent of tunnels and trolls? as in fun hack and slash

The traps here are built for antagonistic killer DMs, and games that really don't make for good playing and are just there to show your players how clever you are.

We don't talk about them for a reason.

I'd say you're just using it wrong. The illustrations and editing is great and the traps are very useful for ideas. I don't see why anyone would just them as-is, unless they're really mean. I think the books are at least worth a read.

Woke

Rules cyclopedia, Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord or BECMI? which haves the better rules?

also opions for barbarians of lemuria

LL, no contest. But why no Bx?

Whats so good about b/x?

BECMI is better than the Rules Cyclopedia, but B/X is better than BECMI. Both for its brevity and for dumb shit like BECMI's stretching out of progressions.

I've got no opinions on Basic Fantasy, Labyrinth Lord or Barbarians of Lemuria.

>"Always appears in your hand when you try to attack" has niches uses,
Shit, in LotFP that -2 isn't even a problem for a Fighter once you hit level five or so. Especially if you're a defensive fighter to begin with. Having to keep your guns down to offhand pistols might suck, but I'd take always having a sword or knife when I need one over even more useless to-hit bonuses. Might make dealing with Undead harder, though, given that LotFP Undead ignore the bottom half of your damage dice.

Mages start with Summon, plus a couple-three random spells (rolled off the "full" spell chart..) and bonus ones equal to their Int bonus picked out of the core rulebook. They always get to pick one spell at starting regardless of Int. Each level the mage tells me what kind of spell he's working on researching for his next level, and chooses a new one when he levels up. In return I usually re-roll it or give him a bonus to learning it if it pops up in treasure.

Elves start off Reading Magic reflexively but with only a single spell and Summon plus their Int bonus, and don't get Human's Occultism skill.

In addition to scrolls and spellbooks, I'll also have "nuggets" of spell research left behind by other mages, or little bits of bound spells and shit you can use. Basically a bit like treasure maps, they make researching a particular spell or type of spell take less time and money but you still have to commit to them to get it. You can also get unique or more-flexible versions of spells by adapting other mages' research.

I also have fetal rules for Mages making a Wunderkammer instead of Carousing. Still working on those, but I'm gonna have at least one Elf and a couple Mages in my next game so that ought to be shaking out soon. Or they'll all die. Either way is good, really.

>"Always appears in your hand when you try to attack" has niches uses,
>I'd take always having a sword or knife when I need one over even more useless to-hit bonuses

But here's the thing - what kind of a curse would it even be if you could turn it to your advantage? Wouldn't it just become even nastier at this point?

ACKS™

>He's asking where in the dungeon they would be stashed, and what they'd look like.
>Kind of boring if it's all just scrolls in chests.
I've done everything from scrimshawed legbones to an extremely specific menu of drugs and a painting.

>and if they beat the invisible mummies... lichs pop out of the wrappings!

I have a game in three hours, what should i play?