Paizo Games General /pgg/ (also /pfg/)
What do you think of the envoy? Can it be salvaged? Is a level 5 envoy doing nothing but spamming Get 'Em and Clever Attack all that good compared to a level 5 operative with even better skill monkeying, +3d8 trick attack, and wider abilities?
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>Paizo still can't get their shit together
>Revolver
>Chain on the inside
What is this weapon even?
After looking at the feats, Envoy is easily salvagable.
Operatives are just sneakier Soldiers and contribute nothing to the party except damage and skills, but everyone brings skills to the party. So you may as well play a Soldier and be more effective at doing damage since stealth is entirely pointless in a tech-filled environment..
it's not a revolver, it's the magneto driven engine for the chainsaw.
Did anyone really expect them too?
>since stealth is entirely pointless in a tech-filled environment..
What?
You can't stealth from something like an infrared beam.
The stealth rules say no such thing.
According to whom or what? What level of stupid is this?
The number of ways you can foil stealth in tech environs are much higher than the ways stealth can benefit you in a tech environs, user. It's simple logistics. In fantasy, stealth is exceedingly powerful because it's hard to defeat. But with sensor arrays, robots, mutlviisual sensory systems, and much more powerful noise detection, etc. etc., stealth becomes a moot point.
According to logic m8.
Common fucking sense. The rules don't say my character can't just become a diety the moment play starts either, guess I can just do that and solve the campaign.
That being said, you can just move around and disable beams. But that's acrobatics+tech shit.
...
That's BS unless the rules say that's how it works.
And Operative literally gets Hide in Plain Sight at level 5 and a lot of other goodies.
No but you or a friend can hack the beams away.
>After looking at the feats, Envoy is easily salvagable.
How?
So infrared beams can suddenly detect magic invisibility?
The Technomancer can't disable sensors with their magic?
I want to play a top-heavy action Icon in a skintight bodysuit!
>"You can't because of logic"
>In a game with extremely advanced tech
>In a game with magic
>Hacking is a thing, as are bond-tier gadgets
>"You can't hide from an infrared beam"
See
Stealth isn't just moving quietly in a dark room with a guard+some alarm spells.
And Hide in Plain sight doesn't stop robots from detecting your body heat or lasers trip wires from detecting you unless it also allows you to set your body temperature to that of corpse or renders you literally invisible.
You posted this last thread and it wasn't good then. Delete
>Stealth is useless in a technological setting!
None of you fucks have ever played a cyberpunk setting, have you? The Infiltrator is a core archetype for goddamn any of them; the trick is that stealth is harder than just 'I sneak by in the shadows', so you need a broader skill and knowledge base.
That's not stealth as the skill though?
How do you hide from what amounts to a camera with Blindsight, Tremorsense, Lifesense, and True Seeing without special technical equipment of your own, at which point whether or not you have stealth is irrelevant?
Gadgets aren't about stealth the skill and a Wizard with Invisibility + Forced Silence didn't need Stealth in Pathfinder either.
That's kinda of what people are saying.
>without special technical equipment of your own
Why would you?
Operatives literally get a cloaking field as a class feature as early as level 5.
There's probably a gadget or armor upgrade that can hide your body temperature.
>And Hide in Plain sight doesn't stop robots from detecting your body heat
Considering Androids don't actually have any such thing...I'm pretty sure that's not in the rules.
Also: Predator literally had them fool body heat detection with being clever with stealth.
I want to play an Envoy and let my party down every session!
Face is also much more important in scifi than in fantasy
Which makes Envoys stronger social skills more valuable than given
No, they're saying it's outright useless, instead of 'it's hard so you have to think things through and have support'. is flat saying the skill is useless, which is untrue; it's just part of a package of various useful things an infiltrator needs to have and know.
>camera with Blindsight, Tremorsense, Lifesense, and True Seeing
Where are these cameras?
>Camera has tremorsense
Wouldn't it make more sense to have sonar?
>Considering Androids don't actually have any such thing
What do you mean by this.
Androids in Starfinder/Pathfinder aren't robots built to detect intruders so why would they have heat sensors. They're essentially homunculi. Their humans with funky looking tats and the same body functions. They probably have body heat too. I'm not seeing your point.
Infrared camera.
And why would they need to have stealth if they have Invisibility and Silence? That's the entire point.
>>infrared cameras can see fucking vibrations
are you retarded?
We're assuming they exist given the fact that this is a high science fucking fantasy setting with space travel, lasers, and advanced AI. We have tech like that IRL right now and we can't even combine that with magic.
It would be really, really fucking stupid if there was NOTHING like that in Starfinder.
Why do the daredevil and the thief have no +4 to trick attack, when every other operative, including the ghost, receives the +4 to trick attack?
Please note that the Diplomacy skill is more limited in Starfinder than it is in Pathfinder.
Diplomacy in Starfinder can be used to "change attitude" and "gather information," but it can no longer be used to "make a request."
Which Theme are you lads most excited for? I'm hyped about the Ace Pilot!
>people won't have multiple security measures.
>in your scifi all enemies dont have "see all players in all situations, even walls" goggles on all the time
wow you faggots play some unoptimized easy shit
And it would be really stupid to say 'Stealth skills in a sci-fi game are only concerned with sneaking in old-school ways'. Someone trained in stealth in a sci-fi game should be trained in methods to bypass detection appropriate for the setting.
Okay, fuckboy, let's look at First Contact.
Security Robots have Perception +10 and Darkvision, but no other special senses.
None. The entire game looks like a load of horse shit and I doubt I'll even be able to backport the weapons and armor properly.
Good.
Make request created more problems than it solved.
That brings up another problem. Who even uses infrared cameras? Yes, with advanced technology there's bound to be more ways to stealth, and more ways to detect stealth.
But at the same time not everyone would upgrade to Infrared truesight 4k cameras because they cost money. In this day and age, does everyone own top of the line security software? Do all businesses have police-linked alarms and guard dogs? No, because that costs money. Does everyone have an amazing computer with a GTX-Whatever? No, because that's unfeasible- You're not always going to be infiltrating megacorporations with mega-security, like that one user seems to think. Stealth is completely viable, you just have to be careful.
Tremorsense is just a good mic m8.
Because invisibility is only a bonus to stealth? Not 'Auto-win'?
>one monster out of a preview bestiary.
Outlaw Soldier cowboy.
Is it true that Space Goblins can fuse with machinery and make it go haywire? That sounds like a fun spin on saying you've got Goblins in the system!
It's literally security robots, aka the shit you were talking about. Now fuck off.
Extra bonus for non-Dex based skills? Althrough Stealth is Dex-based too.
>Quickdraw nerfed
The fuck is this shit.
I love Starfinder so far! I also love its level-based equipment!
>Operatives are just sneakier Soldiers
Please be reminded that operatives have 10 (yes, 10) base skill points per level before their Intelligence modifier, two free Skill Focus feats, and a scaling bonus to all skill checks as part of their basic class progression, not even including any selected talents.
>who even uses infrared cameras
Literally every business who needs security. Banks have not only infrared cameras, they usually have infrared lasers that you can trip by walking through like an invisible, intangible tripwire.
What you're saying is that you can use stealth to rob Mom and Pop shops, in which case - what the fuck are you doing? I guess if you're level 1-3 stealth will be useful, yeah.
>there is only going to be one type of security robot, one that was written as more of a "riot/guard type"
>there aren't going to be camera's, motion detectors, etc
Wow, Paidrones coming out in full force.
>two free Skill Focus feats, and a scaling bonus to all skill checks as part of their basic class progression
These don't even stack lmao.
Yeah, wasn't so fond of that m'self.
Operator's Edge does not stack with Skill focus
>Outlaw cowboy
So dashing~!
Presumably higher level characters are better at stealth and thus able to sneak better past better security. So far we have seen nothing that indicated extra sensors are represented by anything other than better perception scores.
Only a fucktard GM would let that guy sneak in
I would had put atleast 15 more cameras inside the room
> So far we have seen nothing that indicated extra sensors are represented by anything other than better perception scores.
We're assuming Paizo isn't completely fucking retarded. A dumb assumption, I know.
That doesn't mean it can't be useful at higher levels. You just need -planning-, not the "Hurrr I can use my stealth skill to pass through the infrared lasers" that someone assumes people will be doing. If you're breaking into a place, you're going to want a plan. You know, find out what kind of guards are in, where the exits are, and where those security measures are. Stealth would involve navigating those threats undetected, not just barging in and hoping to not get caught.
>"There's a camera up ahead, get the Tech to disable it"
>"The lasers are here, we need to take the alternate path"
I never said they did. They still make for quite a useful skill package for an operative.
Which one would be retarded in this scenario?
Yeah Operative is a pretty cool class still
But my point is that detection is essentially all or nothing. Either you have the equipment and disabled the stuff, or you don't have the equipment or forgot to disable to stuff. Stealth never comes into the equation.
And at that point, the Technomancer and Mechanist are doing all the work. That's like saying stealth is useful in Pathfinder because the wizard can cast greater invisibility on you and give you an item of silence and turn you incorporeal.
At that point, it's not really your stealth skill doing the work.
You can't represent sonar with 'better perception' unless you have a bible for a head
That's assuming PCs operate only in high-tech environments. No infrared cameras on that unexplored jungle planet.
Or the stealth skill involves knowing the tricks and how to use the tools to get around various sensors. As you are a character in a sci-fi setting who's likely trained in stealth FOR a sci-fi setting. Rolling the skill is how well you can apply those tricks in practice.
any ideas on a homebrew rape mechanic?
you are the retard in this case
Predator says you're wrong.
Icon followed by Outlaw and Ace pilot
"Roll d20"
>Or the stealth skill involves knowing the tricks and how to use the tools to get around various sensors
Nope, because those tricks are represented in Engineering and Computers. Sorry m8.
Well it's a good thing operatives are DAMN FUCKING GOOD at using skills in general, am I right?
>MY EBIN STARFINER THAT'S GONNA SAVE ME FROM THOSE MEAN OLE FULLCASTERS CAN'T ALSO BE SHIT. IT CAN'T ME
>MUH LEWD D'VA ICONS
Fuck off.
Yeah,
step 1: Kill Yourself
step 2: Everyone shits on your grave
>Hurrr stealth is impossible
>But you're wrong
Yes, but not Stealth. Operatives are skillmonkeys and I like skillmonkeys and can expect them to be useful, but Stealth is useless.
No, you don't get it! No one, even with a +A bazillion stealth mod could sneak past an infrared camera!
So is literally everyone else.
Except your average Operative will boast something like 14 skills per level with there being 20 skills total thanks to being a DEX/INT class.
Also keep in mind Engineering and Computers are both INT-based, so Operatives will be great at those.
>no arguments
>hurr u wrong!
Explain to me how being good at hiding means you can erase radiation from yourself without a stealth suit - that anyone could wear.
You can always just avoid the security camera's field of view
Whew, it is like you guys have never played Splinter Cell or Deus Ex
I'm not saying Operatives are shit, I'm saying Stealth the skill is.
>security cams actually having blind spots
Are you retarded? Do you seriously think security professionals design their camera angles for the convenience of thieves who think they're playing some game?
The main use of Stealth is Trick Attacking as a Ghost desu. Keep in mind Ghost seems like the best Operative specialisation, and it Trick Attacks with Stealth.
Starfinder and Pathfinders are games
These Starfinder arguments will be even worse than Pathfinder arguments with how everyone operates on different expectations of sci-fi on top of different understandings of reality.
Better than celeb culture at least.
>hurr it's a game!!!!!1!one
I see, surely you have bested me with your inassailable arguments.
>implying /sfg/ won't have celeb culture as soon as the first game pops up
You poor, naive child.
By 7th-level, with specialization skill mastery, an operative is automatically succeeding on nearly every trick attack for +4d8 damage and a debilitating attack, correct?
That seems quite effective for a skill monkey class.
Speaking of which, why does the operative's trick attack dice abruptly soar up to +3d8 at 5th-level? The operative's 5th-level package is far stronger than any other class's 5th-level upgrades for no discernible reason.
>who think they're playing some game?
Well...you literally ARE playing some game. Is there a single rule so far that implies things auto-beat stealth other than you saying they are?
>Explain to me how being good at hiding means you can erase radiation from yourself without a stealth suit - that anyone could wear.
You can avoid the camera's field of view or use local objects with a similar temperature to your own body heat to mask your movements, you could meditate and use your focus to lower your body temperature (Psychic powers are canon in the core book and are just a thing a character can be. It even lists it as one of the reasons an operative could use Mirror image) or you could just go Predator on the situation.