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How can we make solarians suck a little less and envoys suck way less?

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Solarians: get rid of the needless specialization into photons or gravitons.

Envoys: Apply Phrenic Adept archetype.

>How can we make solarians suck a little less and envoys suck way less?
Solarians are fine, they have a bunch of cool tricks and do good damage now that we have the equipment section. Envoys on the other hand...... the only thing I can think of is giving them bard-like spellcasting or making the duration of their buffing abilities last for longer

Season 1 of SFS is based around an event outside of the Pact Worlds.

The Mechanic really needs some more class skills. 4+ Int doesn't work out too well when you are int-based and only have 8 class skills. Most engineers will end up with no real choice beyond what profession they'd like

cant you take non class skills?

I mean, being charisma based is nice and all, but we really need to, like, just use the bard from Pathfinder with some acceptable changes for Starfinder.

>do good damage now that we have the equipment section

Uh, what?

1d6 + Strength is still really mediocre.

And solarian weapon crystals are really expensive.

Now that we've seen equipment we know that the Solarion weapon is shit. Any theorycrafting is probably going to be centered around the armour.

You can but it's not really a great situation to not be able to put skill points to full use.

Mechanic: 8 Class Skills
Envoy: 16 Class Skills
Mystic: 12 Class Skills
Operative: 16 Class Skills
Solarian: 10 Class Skils
Soldier: 8 Class Skills
Technomancer: 8 Class Skills

Technomancers and Mechanics both very quickly run into 'Oh fuck, out of class skills' because they have the lowest number of them + Int being the primary stat for them.

I cant get the Imgur to work it keeps telling me all the images are corrupt so I cant check myself but do the themes or archetypes not act like traits and give you more class skills? failing that is there nothing to get more class skills with?

If you start at 5th-level, you can have the Powered Armor Proficiency feat and afford a Battle Harness.

Why not be a halfling soldier with Constitution 18 who goes from Strength 8 to Strength 18 while in a Battle Harness?

For that matter, how do Resolve Points work with powered armor?

And? Plenty of classes in Pathfinder don't have class skills in perception, yet everyone still puts points into it. Expand your horizons.

Because then you're an unclean hobbit vermin

You can spend a feat to get 2 more class skills. Themes can add a single class skill (But only if you don't already have it.

Oh man does this mean I can recreate my Dragon Blood Juicer from RIFTS using a Pathfinder Alchemist and Power Armour?

Powered armour replaces your strength score?

just read the resolve section - you could easily play a soldier with Dex as their primary stat out of power armor, then swap to strength inside their power armor.

That doesn't really stop it being a bit of a design issue. Starfinder feels like it could have done with more editing to pick up some issues here and there.

yeah! it uses the defined strength score of the power armor in question. the size, too. the best general-use power armor - the Battle Harness - brings your strength up to 18.

Interesting. Is suppose it's not high enough to be better than someone focusing on it as they level but it's a nice improvement for most people.

That's my thoughts on it as well. It does come with a maximum dexterity bonus, but that's just one of those things you have to deal with.

Does make me wonder if we'll see similar things for other stats. Like cybernetics that make you Int 16 if you would be dumber. Uplift Augmentation or something.

Are there any roles that look like they could do with more covering in Starfinder?

I'm dicking about a Drone/Robobrain alternative for Mechanics. Transhumanist. Unarmed brawler with a lot of cybernetic fluff. Filling the monk role for Starfinder without being Monk In Space.

What roles does the Solarien have? This is pretty much what I imagine they would be doing using their powers to form cestus and boots so they can punch and kick things with light and gravity

i want leakanon to post setting

I'd iconic her goods

Solarians are more or less 'Any melee'. They can do unarmed but the weapon doesn't actually change rules based on size.

Well it's not as if we have any large races to deal with as of yet or the ability to spam enlarge for extra damage.

Ah, I meant more 'If it's a polearm or a punch' more than comically oversized melee weapons.

Anyone have images of the exocortex stuff? The imgur has drone rules but not exocortex.

I thought that Solarian Armor guys could do ranged?

Not that solarians are any good though, they kind of suck.

>Envoys: Apply Phrenic Adept archetype.

But that still doesn't fix how shit they are.

Yeah, I mispoke.

Solarian Armour can do ranged (But are not great at it. They only get sidearms and most Solarian abilities are short range stuff). Solarian Weapon is melee only.

...

Yes, but the question was how to make them suck way less, not how do we fix how shit they are. Applying said archetype helps them suck less, but doesn't fix their core problems.

Rewrite Envoy's active abilities entirely, taking inspiration from 4e's Warlord?

An interesting thing I noticed after looking into it is that if you want to be a pure melee monster in this game, you actually don't want to be in power armor.

Let me explain; the best power armor (Jarlslayer) brings your speed down to 20, gives you +24 KAC, +18 EAC, brings your size up to large, gives you two upgrade slots (not great) and 2 weapon slots, and brings your strength up to 29. That's really good.

However, someone that starts with 18 strength, +1 from their theme, +4 from levels, and +6 from a stat-booster will have the same amount of strength. Vesk Monolith level 3 armor (A level 20 suit) gives you +26 EAC, +27, reduces your speed by 5, only has a -2 armor check penalty, and has an absolutely massive 7 upgrade slots. If you're an Armor Storm soldier or picked it as your secondary, you can even install power armor mods into it at no extra cost. The only things it doesn't make up for are losing large size and not having integrated weapon slots, but I'd say that's weighed out by not needing to carry around a shitload of ultra-size batteries to keep your dwarfsuit running.

It doesn't hurt you too bad if you don't want to go all-in on strength, either, since the difference between 26 strength and 29 strength isn't particularly appreciable most of the time.

>perception
Has perception been nerfed in SF, as in, I don't need to max it or even skill it at all?

>paizo
>nerfing dumb skill shit

Expect to need it more than ever, as it's probably tied to sensors now as well. If you don't need a separate perception skill to use the readout on your HUD in addition to looking with your eyes.

At 1st-level, a ranged soldier with an azimuth artillery laser targets EAC and deals 1d10 (average 5.5) damage. A soldier has full BAB.

At 1st-level, an operative with an azimuth laser pistol targets EAC and deals 1d4+1d4 (average 5) damage on a trick attack, which also flat-foots the enemy. A halfling or ysoki operative (ghost) with Dexterity 18 will probably have Stealth +17 for trick attacks.

At 7th-level, a soldier with an aphelion artillery laser (level 9, price 14,300 credits) targets EAC and deals 3d8+7 (average 20.5) deals. A soldier has full BAB. If they selected Laser Accuracy with a gear boost, they will have another +1 attack bonus. Hit-and-Run and Sharpshoot can help with full attacking.

At 7th-level, an operative with an aphelion laser pistol (level 9, price 14,820 credits) targets EAC and deals 3d4+4d8+3 (average 28.5) damage on a trick attack, which will always succeed due to specialization skill mastery, and which will flat-foot the enemy and apply a debilitating trick debuff. The operative also has a good number of selectable talents to spare, compared to the soldier.

What gives? Why is it that, out-of-the-box, an operative is only slightly worse-off than a ranged soldier at shooting people? Is this not a little unfair, considering that the operative is also a skill monkey extraordinaire with 10 base skill points, a scaling bonus to all skills, and a variety of skill benefits?

While the soldier is spending their specialization and their class talents to upgrade their shooting skills, the operative has far less of an opportunity cost for killing potential, and can afford to upgrade themselves in other avenues.

The operative seems like the metaphorical "golden child" of the five non-caster classes. Is Paizo pushing a player towards being an omnicompetent John Wick in space, with an energy pistol held in Center Axis Relock?

Have I missed anything here?

I don't care what anybody says, you're the best.

>five non-caster classes
There's only four out of the six that are non-casters, first off.

Second, you're not addressing the fact that sure, the operative can deal more straight damage, a soldier will be harder to kill, gets higher bonus damage, can wield heavy weapons at all, has easy access to power armor, can get cheaper armor mods with the right specialization, can slap an enchantment on their weapon with the right specialization, and generally has more options than the Operative in terms of gear.

The oprtative is better at skills and can hit single targets harder, but the soldier has a lot more staying power on the battlefield, access to actual AoE weapons, and a lot more access to things that will save his ass in a fight, while still having completely respectable damage, particularly when it picks up a third attack in its full attack routine at level 11.

Now, I can imagine that a soldier is consistently *far better* at fighting than an operative (as opposed to simply slightly better) if, and only if, the game assumes that ranged characters will be standing still and full attacking every single turn. (Well, with some degree of movement from a 5th-level Hit-and-Run soldier.) I do not know how often that is actually going to happen, but if it **is** a regular occurrence, then I can see the soldier being vindicated over the operative.

It is a bit of a strange game assumption to make; I would have liked to see soldiers better off with single shots.

Envoy, mechanic, mystic, operative, solaran, soldier, technomancer. Does that not make five non-casters?

>a soldier will be harder to kill
Somewhat harder to kill; an operative does not even need that much Intelligence unless they want to hypercharge their skills.

>gets higher bonus damage, can wield heavy weapons at all
I have already taken this into account above.

>has easy access to power armor
Opportunity cost from feats and purchases.

>generally has more options than the Operative in terms of gear
The gear of Starfinder is deceptively narrow; for weapons and armor alone, there are a few clear "best, intended choices" at most levels and price points.

>can get cheaper armor mods with the right specialization, can slap an enchantment on their weapon with the right specialization
This is costing specializations and selectable class talents, which the operative is also entitled to.

>the soldier has a lot more staying power on the battlefield
>a lot more access to things that will save his ass in a fight
Out-of-the-box, the soldier's package for durability is mostly the extra HP/SP.

>access to actual AoE weapons
Which they shell out credits for.

DPR Olympics already at full run?

Mystic is a spellcaster. Where Technomancer is analogous to a wizard, Mystic is analogous to oracles or clerics.

By "harder to kill" I mean they have easier access to good armor, and with the right setup can put a forcefield on their armor for half the cost.

As far as gear options, does the Operative have some way of spending ten minutes to create an extremely effective (and potentially extremely costly) weapon free of charge? Soldier can do that for grenades, and the ability that allows it scales with level.

You're right, the soldier is, in fact, more dependant on their kit to get things done, but that's the entire point of it being the primary combat class while Operative is a skillmonkey with a damage boost. It's a more generally versatile class, but soldier is still has more directions it can be built for on the battlefield.

>Mystic is a spellcaster. Where Technomancer is analogous to a wizard, Mystic is analogous to oracles or clerics.
Yes, and?
Mystic and Technomancer are casters.
Envoy, Mechanic, Operative, Solarian, and Soldier are non-casters.

I was responding to the other guy thinking that there were five noncasters in the game, dumbass. Read the conversation.

Are you clinically retarded? Are you just incapable of counting?
THERE ARE FIVE NON-CASTERS
1. Envoy
2. Mechanic
3. Operative
4. Solarian
5. Soldier

Incapable of counting, apparently. My mistake.

user...

its okay man
we all have been there

>Paizo hates martials

NEWS AT 11

operator is martial you retard

THE HYPEST GAMEPLAY ON Veeky Forums

I (not-so-)truly appreciate how Serums of Healing, which restore Hit Points, are still a purely magical, non-technological item.

Paizo has so little faith in mundane healing that even in the far future, with soft sci-fi wonders abound, a serum to heal wounds could still only be pure magic.

>By "harder to kill" I mean they have easier access to good armor
Light armor is not that far behind heavy armor, and powered armor has its own opportunity cost. As well, maximum Dexterity bonuses can be a hindrance to a ranged soldier.

>with the right setup can put a forcefield on their armor for half the cost.
Armor Storm is generally not the specialization you want for a ranged soldier anyway; that would be Hit-and-Run or Sharpshoot.

A ranged soldier, I'll give you. But an operative doesn't do weapon enchantment, explosives, melee, or power armor better than a soldier. It depends on what you're trying to do with the character.

Anyone know of a Discord for playtesting Starfinders? Or, if none, would anyone be interested in one if it was made?

Just refluff it as nanomachines, son

>But an operative doesn't do weapon enchantment, explosives, melee, or power armor better than a soldier.

As far as "combat overall" is concerned, I would say that an operative is only slightly behind a ranged soldier in a paradigm wherein standing still to full attack is uncommon, and moderately behind a ranged soldier in a paradigm wherein standing still to full attack happens all of the time.

The operative completely blows away the soldier on the noncombat front with its skill monkeying, however. If we take each class as a whole, split between combat and noncombat, the operative decisively pulls ahead of the soldier.

My regular Pathfinder GM had allowed me to hand-pick and assemble a five-player group to playtest Starfinder come the 14th, but that is still a long ways away.

That would be changing the technological/magical/hybrid status of the Serums of Healing, which would have mechanical ramifications, such as for the technomancer class.

>Operative/Soldier discussion
Well yes, we never disagreed on the fact that Operative is more versatile out of combat, but you don't really want a soldier for his ability to shoot, though that's nice to have. You want him for the fact that he has a grenade launcher and a suit of power armor, or a dimensional longsword, and the ability to make them work better than any class in the game.

Starfinder has a heavy emphasis on gear, and while Operative makes use of class features better, soldiers have more gear options. That's the entire point. the discrepancies only come up when out of combat, where the Operative will always be better if they've invested in things at all.

That said, it seems that the GM has allowed the server to become a free-for-all discussion server for Starfinder:

discord.gg/YAk263j

>oh god this noncombat class sucks in combat, how do we fix it!?!?
Whatever. We don't even have the full rules yet, just parts of them.

Spreading out that gear will come with non-negligible credit costs, even under the wealth-by-level table.

I am not entirely convinced that a soldier can fare particularly well as a switch-hitter, as Hit-and-Run tries to suggest. It would mean either advancing both Strength and Dexterity, or investing in power armor, which has its own opportunity costs.

I am starting to think that even a 5th-level Hit-and-Run soldier is most optimal as someone who spams ranged full attacks.

Sounds like original soulknives.

You know, back before PoW and Augmented and all those...

We can probably expect the same kind of third party support.

Pretty much. If you go Weapon, you are an original soulknife. If you go armour, you are an Aegis as good as an original soulknife.

Oh and black holes suck a lot. I shouldn't be surprised by that but it's kinda sad.

Try coming at it from a different angle; the soldier has to optimize, sure, but what are they optimized for? My boyfriend, for instance, wants to make a grenadier build using the bombard specialty; enhanced damage on grenades, the ability to rapid-fire grenades (and the ability to choose which ones you're firing at a given time) and the ability to make your own grenades are all abilities that you can't really scoff at; grenades also scale a lot harder, so even the cheap ones tend to do more than comparable standard weaponry, and have a wider variety of effects. Meanwhile, I'm the person that figured out a melee weapon build is actually better outside of power armor than in it, and have plans to use that for a character in the near future.

Yeah, Operative is a better gunner, particularly with full attacks, but soldiers have other options for how they want to build, as long as you can pay for them, and frugal players will figure out how to break the economy anyways.

More like "what the fuck did you expect from Paizo + closed playtests"

People are finding not "an extra +1 over this other build" differences but massive, blatantly good and bad choices on day fucking one.

Nanomachines that get dispelled and fail in AMFs?

Seriously, how fucking hard is it to just put in some stimpacks?

You remember stimpacks? You used to inject dozens of them into yourself after a fight by endgame in Fallout.

>soldiers have other options for how they want to build,

That does run into one of my issues with Soldiers. They are utterly shat on for non-combat options when every single other class has SOME non-combat features. Not even a scaling bonus to Athletics guys?

What is it with fantasy games and hating on gravity?

That's a bit less of a problem when you take into account that Soldiers have only one less feat than fighters. dump all your class feats into combat and you still have a shitload of general feats to burn on whatever, and you don't have to dedicate them all to a combat style, unlike other classes.

I don't know, I really don't.

My favourite M&M character ever was a gravity mage so I tend to immediately go straight for anything gravity when I see it these days. I have almost never not been disappointed.

Note that this server can also be a staging ground for Starfinder games.

What I am particularly flabbergasted by is how 5th-level for a solarian is such a lackluster level for the class, whereas 5th-level is when an operative gains +3d8 trick attack damage along with a special ability from their specialization.

I am skeptical over graviton mode's Reflex bonus mattering all that much. It seems that the solarian, shabby as it is, is best off staying in photon mode at all times. A 6th-level solarian opens up combat with a Plasma Sheath and a Corona for constant damage, then spams melee attacks.

Does there seem to be any more optimal build for a solarian?

While it is true that a soldier has far more variety in build styles than an operative, that does not change my assessment of the operative having far more competent an overall mix of combat and noncombat than any other non-caster.

You cannot build an operative to be all that good a melee character, let alone an AoE blaster, but sticking to the "one true operative build" that is an operative (ghost) with a small arm produces a remarkably competent combatant and skill monkey.

It's still not great design to go 'You get nothing non-combat. Go get generic feats for it'.

But then, I'm also not a fan of soldier replicating the fighter's old 'Feats for class features'. It feels like they could have given them more Gear Trick options instead/expanded on that. Gear Tricks are borderline vestigial right now.

Like I said: Closed Beta, and Paizo.

You can't tell me you didn't know it was coming. We just could not be sure which specific parts of the classes, gear and abilities would be in which category.

I guarantee you someone in those offices was saying "but they get a weapon for free. we can't let that scale as much; those class abilities would free up a lot of credits otherwise!"

I'm reminded of 3.5 balance when core was released, just with a bizarro world deal where it's which martial is best is being discussed instead of what caster is best.

Though, I wonder how the casters will compare to martials once we see their spell lists.

The Technomancer is likely to be very scary. He has innate spell focus (Which is not limited to any school. It's just a flat DC boost)

It seems to be that a big limiting factor on an Operative relying on their trick shots is that you have to make a skill check everytime. At level 1, with 18 Dex, using Hide as the Trick skill, that means you're rolling d20+8, vs the enemies CR+20. Take the Security Robot in First Coontact as an example; CR 4. You have to beat a DC of 24 with d20+8, so you fail on a 15 or less. Or, rather, you have approximately 1 in 4 chances of success.

Of course, your odds improve as your level matches the CR. The same Operative at level 4, matching the Robots CR4, now rolls d20+12 on Hide, so you fail on an 11 or less. Which is still only slightly higher than 50%.

Not great odds considering how exposed you are after making the attack. And, unless I'm mistaken, it's single-target only. So you could be out in the open, having failed to hit your target, with multiple enemies focus firing you on their next turn.

Rereading Trick Shot; you don't have to move. So as long as you're in range, you could certainly fire it from nearby cover, which isn't as bad if you fail.

Plus, there's also the fact that it can spoof the effects of Wish later on, which is an entire thing unto itself.

Can anyone else identify if any classes have "one true optimal builds"? While classes like the mechanic and the soldier can be built in many ways, it seems like certain classes are most optimal spamming certain routines:

• Envoy: Clever Feint and Get 'Em in either order at 1st and 2nd, Clever Attack at 4th, Improved Get 'Em at 6th. Still the worst of the classes by far.

• Operative: Ghost specialization (thank you, Mark Seifter, for preserving the Ghost's +4 while the Daredevil and the Thief lost out on it), small arm, maximize Stealth, work towards Shot on the Run.

• Solarian: Plasma Sheath at 2nd, whatever strikes your fancy at 4th, more or less nothing at 5th, Corona at 6th. Start combat with a Plasma Sheath and a Corona and spam melee attacks. A rather awful class, though not quite on the level of the envoy. Would anyone mind optimizing a dedicated melee soldier at 6th for comparison purposes?

The soldier has no "one true optimal build," but what of the mechanic, the mystic, and the technomancer?

For that matter, is the mechanic (exocortex) even that good? It seems like a watered-down soldier with a worse action economy and a few noncombat tricks to its name, especially at the lower levels. Is this a correct assessment?

A 1st-level halfling or ysoki operative (ghost) has Stealth +17 for trick attacks.

4 Dexterity modifier
+1 rank
+3 class skill
+2 racial
+3 Skill Focus
+4 Ghost
Total: +17

By 2nd- or 3rd-level, they gain a personal upgrade to Dexterity for Dexterity modifier +5. By 5th-level, Dexterity modifier +6.

Thus, a 5th-level halfling or ghost operative (ghost) is probably boasting:
6 Dexterity modifier
+5 ranks
+3 class skill
+2 racial
+3 Skill Focus
+4 Ghost
Total: +23

By 7th-level, specialization skill mastery assures a successful trick attack 100% of the time.

You can thank Mark Seifter for having blundered up here:
paizo.com/threads/rzs2ui01&page=1?Starfinder-Early-Impressions

So when is this industry dropping making books all together?
It would be easier to make change if you just did everything as digital files

Friendly reminder that /pgg/ /pfg/ /sfg/ now has a Starfinder Discord cabal:

discord.gg/YAk263j

>The soldier has no "one true optimal build," but what of the mechanic, the mystic, and the technomancer?
Unfortunately, we just don't know yet. Until we have access to their spell lists, we're not even sure what they're capable of.

Mechanic doesn't use spells.

Shit son. Yeah, I didn't take even half of that into account.

I'm tired, I missed that mechanic was in the mix. Seems to me that Mechanic really doesn't like exocortex, since it's all kind of shit collectively, so a drone build is likely where it's at. It's kinda like when you're asking a druid whether they want Domains or an animal companion; one extra spell per day, or access to an entire second character, albeit one that isn't as strong as a standard one?

So space John Wick is the strongest all around (combat/noncombat) noncaster in Starfinder?

It's even worse than it looks.

>Level 5 Exocortex feature:
>You can hack things within 20ft of you WITH YOUR MIND.
>It disables your other Exocortex features while you use it

>Level 5 'I am a Mechanic in the first place Feature.
>You can hack things within 20ft of you with your custom rig (Which is established with the custom rig rules to be allowed to be PART OF YOUR MIND)

Oh and the non-exocortex one? It upgrades in distance as you level. The Exocortex one doesn't.

Good fucking god.

Technically you CAN use them both at the same time for 2x hacking speed. But that's 2x hacking speed...while losing all autocortex functions. There are talents to do that without fucking up your other class features.

Soldier might be tier 3; we won't know until we see the feats, but grenades alone give it a level of combat versatility that's difficult to match, just because of all the crazy shit grenades can do.

Other than that, seems on point. I doubt we'll get more than one tier 2 class, and it's probably going to be the technomancer.

OFFICIAL STARFINDER TIER LIST:

Mid/High Tier 3: Operative
Somewhere in Tier 3: Mystic, Technomancer
Low Tier 3/High Tier 4: Mechanic (drone), Soldier
Low Tier 4/High Tier 5: Mechanic (exocortex), Solarian
Low Tier 5: Envoy

Did I get it right guys?

We haven't seen equipment or spells yet.

We did see equipment.

Is there any point at all to sniper rifles for an operative?

One of the sample builds for operatives is shown as using a sniper rifle, and the sarcesian operative in First Contact uses a sniper rifle, but since trick attack, triple attack, and quad attack are incompatible with sniper rifles...

Well, why should an operative ever use one?

If the enemy has a jumpjet and and you dont?

For the range and dehabilitating attacks

An Intelligence 8-12 operative with Jack of All Trades at 2nd-level (use all skills untrained and double operative's edge when using a skill untrained) and the 6th-level spacefarer ability (+2 bonus to all untrained skill checks) can be a truly ridiculous skill monkey even despite a middling Intelligence.

Spending the cash to keep the sniper rifle up-to-date will take its toll for such a situational weapon.