Who was in the wrong here?

who was in the wrong here?

>reddit

I'm leaning towards it being the players fault. I can see I it being at least partially the DMs fault but I mean who the fuck just yolos a dragon.

Neither was in the wrong, this was just a thing that happened.
Perhaps the players weren't that clever or were used to playing with a GM who paced things very differently or the GM didn't understand the kind of game his players wanted to play/were used to playing or didn't communicate with them very well, but there's no inherent fault here on anyone's side.

I don't think anyone was in the wrong. It isn't "wrong" for the party to lose.

You, for browsing reddit and making this shit thread.

It's the player's fault that they died, in that they learned of a new dragon type they've never heard of before and tried to Leeroy Jenkins that shit. It boggles me that they had the foresight to scry on it using a pretty decent scrying trick, but did no additional research.

Then again, this is typical player behavior, in jumping into a situation and expecting to be able to figure it out as you go, so I'm not really surprised nor do I necessarily blame them. I mean, I certainly find action more fun than meticulous information gathering and planning.

Still, I will fault them for seemingly not having any kind of escape plan. You teleported down into a cave to fight a dragon, but didn't have any way to zap out if things go wrong? That would have required very little extra preparation, what the hell?

Did the GM make it clear when he started this game that he was going to go with a gritty, lethal world?

Did the players sign up for this suffering or was it thrust upon them, like a tentacle-dick on an unwilling loli in so many doujins?

These were all trick questions btw: the group didn't have fun. Yes, the GM is at fault, because he is the main reason the group has fun.

If the DM was just like "he kicks the pillar, rocks fall, everybody dies" then whatever their escape plan was doesn't matter, since they couldn't enact it.

You for posting reddit screencaps.

If that's the case then it's the DM's fault. But the story is too vague and leaves out those details. So it's one or the other.

Really all we have to go on is the DM's testimony, which is almost all we ever have in these threads. But the DM sounds regretful, so I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and assume there were at least a couple rounds for them to try and do something.

Or maybe there wasn't and the DM is a giant faggot. I guess we'll never know.

My only question is why didn't the scrying attempt give the players some clues about the surroundings? It would seem that would have given the players some info.

>implying the group wasn't having fun.
>implying the players didn't do something stupid.
>implying the GM should be held responsible for the groups collective stupidity.
>implying this wasn't bait and I'm not replying purely out of boredom.

>implying implications

The DMs fault by far. Understandable that the players themselves went in unaware, unprepared and with practically no knowledge. But to TPK them on a simple lol you get crushed is just plain stupid. There are plenty of other options that could have been taken. Unless of course the expectations of a no holds barred campaign were outlined in the beginning. From the way the story was told it sounds like the DM is just an arrogant cunt.

Everyone is at fault. The players are high enough level to scry and teleport and don't research or have contingency plans. The DM is at fault for not giving them a round or two of emergency action as the cavern collapses. You are at fault, for bringing a reddit screencap.

>who was in the wrong here?
>No save
>No research
Both DM and players were in the wrong. They should start over

>2012+5
>Still shitting on Reddit
>Not knowing that its userbase overlaps with Veeky Forums's

>Not knowing that its userbase overlaps with Veeky Forums's
then why arent they posting here instead of screencapping

>Dragon can burrow
>Automatically makes it immune to a cave in.

Yeah no, TPKO, but that Dragon is fucking dead.

>Implying a plan can bypass "kick the pillar, rocks fall, everybody dies"

>enough level to scry a coin
>can't punch their way through a rubble
Kek, I'm 5th level monk/pal and I literally have ""burrow"" speed in that I can punch through stuff and ignore any DR and Hardness with my fists, not even adamantine can survive my FoB. Rocks fall? let me punch upwards

>2003+14
>still samefagging this hard

Hmn. I think the players would have died in a fair fight and it was have ended up their fault.

But I also think kicking out the support beam is perhaps a little too clever on the DM's part for a Dragon fight? So that seemed like a little much.
DM didn't get the players a chance to do anything? Even reflex for being buried alive.

Honestly despite the players not having asked the obvious questions. It looks like put alot of work and planning into their scheme. I prefer to reward that kind of thinking and not instantly TPK them.

Both sides at fault. Clearly the DM is prefect for these fuck-wits.

Okay, but is it UA?

Dragons are some of the most clever creatures in D&D. What are you on about?

>Pyroclastic dragon are 3.5 so assuming 3.5
Max damage a cave in could do is 400 (20d20). Very Old and older Pyro dragon can survive that.

Only way a play can survive that is a d12 HD with a +8 Con mod. So basically the barbarian class only.

>Completely covered on rubble
>im just gomna punch sea, even tho I'm pinned and have no way of swinging
>b-b-b-but I have this feat....
kys, players like you are the absolute worst

>Dragons are some of the most clever creatures in D&D. What are you on about?
I didn't say too smart for the Dragon, I said too clever on the DM's part. A DM is expected to pull some punchs in favor of an interesting encounter. You can display an Dragon's intelligence many other ways.

>Unearth Arcana
Well, is a supernatural ability and in that case it helps me to dig myself out, but if you were asking if it belongs to Unearth Arcana, no, it doesn't.

Eh, it's usually players writing, and when the stories are true, they often are so weighted that everyone assumes they are lying anyway.

>Doesn't know about the 1 mm punch
>He thinks characters stay motionless while stuff happens like is a FF or something like that
That GM and player confirmed...I even think you don't actually play games as you don't have friends.

>enabling willful idiocy

How? It just burrows into safety from the falling debris.

This is why people hate millenials. "Muh fun" is not the only point of TTrpgs.

This.
Being intelligent does not mean you get to have an I Win button, and the DM ignored the characterization of dragons to do this.
Why the hell would a dragon wreck it's own HOME? Does the DM recognize how important a lair, and what it contains, is to a dragon? Typically, they are prepared to defend it to the death, their pride will tolerate nothing left, and it is this pride which allows pcs to stand a fighting chance against dragons at all.
What the DM did here was metagame, in the bad DM way, against the players. The trap was designed expressly to be anti-player character, not a natural outgrowth of the setting or the mind of the dragon, and that's why I would call bullshit on him. It's no different than randomly running into enemies that coincidentally have silver bullets to shut down whatever the pcs' strengths are with no justification other than the outside force called the DM.

Actually is not a feat, but now that you mention it I have combat reflexes, evasion, cut from the air and smash from the air so any projective (from arrow to airvessel, yeah, any size) that flies towards me or 10ft of me provokes an AoO

In favor of an interesting game? Ever damn day.

Also I'd play a Pyroclastic correctly. Being from EP Magma they don't keep coins. Cause coins would melt in their presence. Caves would collapse around them, and being from a world of molten lava. I wouldn't expect them to know a ton about engineering.
On top of all that, the oldest Pyro dragon only have a 20 Int. So they aren't that smart compared to dragons- Fuck compared to some basic creatures actually.
So yeah. Said encounter was probably too smart for this specific breed.

>Dragon is immune to falling debris damage, but players aren't.

A human was able to come up with this plan, and humans have int 10.

Yes? That's what I said.

The party fucked up, but there are two ways that could have gone down

>The cavern collapses, you're all dead.
or
>The cavern starts to collapse, how are you going to get out of this situation?

One of those can be a fun and memorable scene.

>only 20 INT
>collapsing a cave on intruders is just TOO SMART for 20 INT
are you fucking retarded?

The fuck? Everyone having fun is literally the goal of the game you moron

>collapsing it's own home is intelligent

No it's not if the party have no means to get out of the situation.

Collapsing a cave can kill you, you know? A badger can dig that doesn't mean that if I through at him 50 tons of rocks it won't die.

>The DM is at fault for not giving them a round or two of emergency action as the cavern collapses.
It seems totally obvious that he did, though? Given how he describes it (the dragon had time to burrow away *while the cavern collapsed*) the players just had no reaction or backup plan for getting beaten bad.

I mean fuck, if they could teleport in they should have at least had a teleport out on hand, but it seems they saved the slot instead for a combat spell *and* didn't make a teleport scroll, so it serves them right.

Of course they do. They're fantasy heroes who, at the very least, have a wizard.

>high level to have scry
>not enough to have adamantine weapons or burrow spells, or teleports, etc

Humans would also know that picking millions of singleton coins out of the dirt for the next ten years is also not a great plan.

But your (presumably) are calling other people millenials and would rather end a fight in a TPK because you threw an obscure dragon at them? There is no reasoning with you user. Enjoy your short games.

Burrow speed means it can move effortlessly through solid earth. It's different from a regular animal digging.

OP for Reddit.

Why did the party die then?

Badger has burrow speed, retardo. Burrow speed doesn't make you immune to falling debri damage, not to suffocate from the weight or be able to breath dirt, read the rules

Either the GM didn't give them the opportunity to try to escape, or they tried and failed. It's okay to die if they tried and failed. It's retarded to not give them the chance.

No, that's Earth Glide. Burrow speed is EXACTLY like a regular animal digging.

>But your (presumably) are calling other people millenials
That's different user.

>its userbase overlaps with Veeky Forums's
that is exactly the problem

Because they GM wanted it

...what do you play for if not fun?

To see my enemies driven before me, and hear the lamentations of their women.

Dragon isn't a regular animal therefore ignores that

Then it just means that in 3.5 badger can move through ground as effortlessly as an earth elemental *shrug*

As for your point, debris can't hurt you if there's a layer of earth shielding you.

That sounds like fun.

Because they fucked up and didn't plan, dumbass.

I swear, if that clip appeared now people like you would defend Leeroy. I wonder if they did when it was new.

You can't make me have fun.

So we agree then that the encounter wasn't fun and memorable because they lacked the means to escape, as I originally stated.

That's Earth Glide, retardo. Burrow only allows you to dig, not to easily pass through rock.

He's baiting, he clearly has not idea how the game works same as the GM in the OP's pic

>tfw to intelligent to not die
that dragon an hero

But the dragon has, and that's all it needs to save itself. It just moves out of the way of the falling debris, burrowing into the cave wall

No, the dragon has a way to dig, not to be immune to the falling debris. Read the rules.

Just because my character can swim doesn't mean he's immune to water attacks, high pressure underwater, able to breath water, etc.

>"Players didn't do any research"
>Insta-kills them with a support pillar.

Something tells me that this DM would have had them research everything special about this dragon, then insta-killed them with the support beam anyway.

user, if a thing is falling on you then moving aside is all it takes to prevent it from hitting you. This should not be a controversial statement.

This. That pyroclastic dragon isn't like the rest as it doesn't follow the knowledge you can gather about that type of dragons, if they did research it would just mean squat

What part of he's baiting you don't get?

>digging animal digging its way to safety is baiting now

Will either of you be my DM plz?

>tfw your stupid buddy doesn't die because he's dumb enough to think it's optional

OP here, don't worry, I don't go on reddit. I got this screenshot from tumblr.

>Oh no, robbers have broken into my home!
>I have a fully automatic assault rifle and am covered head to toe in Kevlar and ceramic plates
>I better collapse my house and jump out the window!
That's what this is like

>Yeah I could have had the players actually try to fight the dragon and maybe taught them that they should probably plan their moves carefully in the future
>Or I could just have the dragon bring the roof down on top of them teaching them that I'll probably just asspull something to kill them when I don't like how they're playing

What sort of research could the players have done to see this bizarre trap coming? Why didn't the dragon just bury his treasure in the first place so that people straight up wouldn't be able to get to it?

Why would they teleport into a place they have never been before without a way to teleport out?

>"This kind of dragon lives only on volcanic and magmatic areas surrounded by lava"
>OP's pic dragon doesn't live in such area
Yep, research is going to be mighty helpful

Because that story never happened, is just a ruse to trick people into thinking that GM was clever.

>reddit
Why didn't the dragon just try to kill them? The pillar kick option should've been saved for when the dragon starts to lose and wants to flee, and even then it should've been telegraphed. So the players would see it running at the pillar so they could either
>try and kill it quickly
>get the fuck out of the cave
If they flee they'd then have to think up a way to bait the dragon out into the open.

But killing the party with falling rocks, no matter how sensible it seems, is never groovy. I might make sense to have the players die to an avalanche, but is it fun? The whole point of these games is to be entertaining, and all an instant TPK does is ruin the campaign and piss everyone off.

>t. GM who has TPK'd players in Dark Heresy

(You)

This reminds me of that story of a single 8th level rogue killing a CR 26 Demon in 3.5 by being "smart", even though there was no chance in hell he could:
1. Bypass the demon's sense
2. Survive even a single attack
3. Escape from him
4. Hit him with anything by nat20
5. Deliver sneak attack
6. Damage him at all
etc

You live in Southeast PA, are open to a wide number and variety of pnp games and systems, are reasonably well groomed and socially capable, hold your liquor, and can mesh well with players of varying ethnicities, nationalities, socio-political beliefs, and temperaments?

Logically a bighueg dragon would also laugh at people swinging tiny blades and chucking arrows at it. Those probably wouldn't even penetrate its hide, let alone reach something vital.

But none of this matters, because dragons must play by the same rules. They have AC to get hit, they have hit points until death, and they take cave-in damage like everything else.

Everyone

Why would a dragon wreck his or home the second low level adventurers show up?

Other side of nation, feels bad.

Whatever faggot decided that an intelligent creature would live in a cave whose ceiling could collapse at any given fucking moment. So the GM.

Sorry, bro, but don't give up hope.
2 of my best players were people who literally walked up to my table at the flgs and asked, "hey, what are yall playing?".
6 years later, they are among my closest friends, and valued players at my table.

Of couse it's the gm's fault. Gm's are slaves only present to accomodate the wishes of the important people, the players. You should never let a pc die, it's bad gm'ing.

This, but unironically. If you don't have us around your table, you don't get to tell your precious stories. We're far more important to the gaming process than you.

The only thing worse than a self-righteous DM is a self-righteous player, because the players only have to play one character each while the DM has to play the whole world.
The customer is not in fact always right, you entitled fucktard. I try to make sure my DMing is on the level, and to put the players first, but I'm not your fucking babysitter. You want phat loot, to be the star of the show? Take some fucking initiative instead of expecting a Monty Hall rollercoaster.
Prima donna.

When I was a newfag, moot made me swear an oath to never be a friend to reddit.