ITT: undead power rankings

Working on a homebrew where the BBEG is a lich who leads a kingdom of undead. How would you rank the different kinds of undead? Which ones are higher, which ones are lower?

By hit dice as Gygax intended

You could split the lowest between physical form and non-physical form such as having Skeletons, Zombies, and Wights be the lowest for physical then something like Ghasts, Ghosts, Ghouls, Specters, Shadows, and Wraiths as being the lowest for non-physical form.

Then each type of undead could be "commanded" by a greater undead of that type. Zoms and Skeles could be then commanded by necromancers or similar. The non-physical ones could be commanded by banshees or similar.

You could also have other undead that *not* Arthas has risen or bound to the king like animals, beasts, etc..

It just depends on what you're including. Be sure put *not* Sindragosa in there for me.

You have an entirely wrong approach. Rank should be given depending on merit, since an individual vampire can be much stronger than the lich, or vice versa.

Just need this, really

Lichking
Vampire Lords & Liches
Demiliches
Vampires, Ghost-Kings and high tier ephemereal Undead
Banshees
Vampire Neonates
oltergeists
Thralls
Draugr
Ghouls
Skeletons
Zombies

But it varies alot on what exactly youre doing

By how well they'll lead, not what rank of undead they fit into.
You wouldn't make a leader out of some shut-in prodigal wizard's apprentice who died in a spell gone awry, even if you could make him into a powerful lich. Nor would you use someone really physically strong as a tactician. If you had them available to you, you'd raise up the Hannibal Barcas, Alexander the IIIs, Gengis Khans and Sun Tzus to lead your army, magically bound to your will of course so their ambitions aren't dangerous to you. Who cares if they're simple skeletons or ghouls who'll do poorly in single combat? That's not what they're there for.

To clarify, players get to BE in the kingdom of undead. He's the leader, but he's also one evil jackass that needs to be taken down.

That's an interesting approach, sort of the way I was thinking. Also, I know it sounds surprising, but I had completely forgotten about WoW while making this until very recently.

While I agree with your sentiment, I'd like a baseline for what's stronger versus what's weaker.

Saved.

That's a good starting point. Thanks m8.

The whole point of his kingdom is that he wipes away their past as a form of binding. Plus, it is up to the players who they were, and where that gets them in the start.


Tbh I'm considering his kingdom to be run by three or four princes of hell, each with their own principality that matches the prince, with different environments and rank structures.

Perhaps you can wipe away their personalities and memories while keeping their tactical prowess? I'unno.

Social classes still works but they should imply not wealth but rather personal power and consciousness.
Lower class being almost mindless undead.
Middle class are undead who have sofisticated sense of self and average power and agency.
High class being undead elite like liches, vampire progenitors, undead dragons and likes.

WotLK has some really good stuff for this kinda thing which is where I thought you were coming from. Even Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne has good stuff like how Sylvanas was raised by Arthas as a banshee to serve him. I just the power list off of what type of undead is more powerful than others. You could have things like what other people are saying with who commands what.

Hell and undead are kinda their own thing but it could work out depending on how you structure it. If you had something like having your Lich King be the absolute power then instead of hell princes you could have 4 other powerful liches instead (not as powerful as the king obviously). That would fit the "Theme" more I think.

Non-sentient undead>sentient undead>the lich king
The undead aren't exactly a thriving social being or great nation, its a horde of shambling horrors backed up by slaved powerful beings to a single mind. Its great, its terrifying but its simple and lacks the finesse of an actual kingdom.

Example Necrocracies OP needs to read of-
Evil-alligned Oligarchy of Mavet Rev (Greyhawk) #DMG where undeath is considered a elevation to status
D20 Hollowfaust- City of Necromancers
2e's Requiem, The Grim Harvest
Veeky Forums's Discourse on undead Society
Libris Mortis

Following 2e-3.5 rules here-
Greater Divine and extra planar management of the Necrocracy in question-
(Any lich variant) Demiliches, and any Vampire that is at the age category ranking of 'Patriarch (1000 years of age) that has not succumbed to a delibating Salient Weakness that would hinder it's ability to function in undead society Demiliches can support up to 100 Clones of itself prelichdom (This is a fucking power they get) change weather at will (This shit gets silly with all the listed weather effects in D&D) and under DM discretion contact any Evil Outsider (Ring up Orcus and hire out some of your clones for the blood war or a scuffle with Demogorgon) These abilities are perfect for management of entire demiplanes which can be expanded by XP cost, one can build a machine to cast genesis repeatedly using human souls (10XP a pop) to fuel it, effectively, use of a sustained population in a Demiplane can fuel it's expansion until it becomes a real one.


Beneath this we have the Lich head of the Government, who has access to 1-2 or three Lich Power Rituals, a number of Lichcraft-only Lich Artefacts (Ravenloft and Bazaar of the Bizzarre stuff) Lichspells and Lich salient abilities presented in Van Richten's Guide to the Lich, partially converted in Monsters of Faerun and the rest in the Sword and Sorcery 3.5 Ravenloft conversions.

Then we have the Liche's trusted men, his inner Circle, these may consist of a choice outsider, a Vampire who is the martial commander of armies and the like, an apprentice, an experiment, or a living evil-aligned race as a spymaster. The Lich may also hae Vassaliches if it so wishes.

If mindless undead will just do whatever when not controlled and are not aggressive towards intelligent undead, then ranks should definitely be ordered by the necromantic abilities of the undead (or maybe even living being) in question. The Lich King should be able to control a lot of undead in case of his subjects revolt for his rule to be uncontested and the political situation stable.

You could even do a nod towards medieval vassalage system, with Lich King himself "controlling" (or somehow binding) lesser liches and vampires, while they in turn control lesser necromancers and intelligent undead without necromantic powers, and lesser necromancer would control your typical mindless undead everyman like skeletons and zombies. This way the Lich King is reliant on his subjects, and his (intelligent) subjects have means to increase their power and influence directly, by either learning to control more undead, or making another necromancer their vassal.

The "holdings" would obviously be big necropolises or other sites that contain a lot of corpses or skeletons.

Now, from the Liches inner circle of choice horrors, we move on to the militia, which consists of undead offered to the means of reanimation maintenance use of Black cauldrons (No really, they statted them and everything in the DMG) and choice necromancers and undead that are martial heralds, such as Death Knights and Vampires, Namely Death Knights as they attract Undead via their undead Cohort abilities.

Due to the importance of Faith in D&D worship of evil deities are necessary as otherwise, the people would have to rely on healing from Anatomist Necromancers who are all too happy to 'heal' someone (Purpose botch a healing to kill them for resources) and generally kill everyone.

Wee-Jas is the best for neutrality of faith, Mellifleur or Velsharroon for those aspiring to be practitioners of the dark-arts, and Morning Glory sorts out the marriage and social aspects of life and whatnot.

Local Government is run by Intelligent undead Consisting of Mummies Necropolitans or non-descript undead next to Juju Zombies (everyone forgets about how useful these things are) , a fate many a middle-class commoner can aspire to join as these zombies are far more intelligent than their former kin, and are credited for running Kazerabets Empire once upon a time.

As there are those that oppose the undead, a Secret police force, similar to the one Azalin Rex Employs must exist, easily made up of the ranks of Wights, Ghasts, and Ghouls.

Sewers and Undercities exists for Ghouls namely, as there are many a type of Ghoul including True Ghouls, which were still a thing in 3.5 (Though their 2e ecology remains the same).

Yeah, I think you have a solid point. I'll either divide it based on the type of undead or string a different theme through each of them but they all have similar undead serving them. Might make the theme be each of the three wise monkeys desu.

Yeah, oh FUCK yeah. I love vassal systems. You put it so succinctly, that's really my end goal. Thank you.

Paying close attention, m8.

>Demiliches
>Below regular liches
Acererak frowns at your shenanigans.

The living are of course at the bottom of this society unless they're aspiring Necromancers or are helping development of Undead/Living coexistence, but they're not abused immensely, as someone has to work and tend the fields, keeping the like of emmentive negative energies from ruining local produce

Vampires are kept on a leash and are tested for Necrotic intelligence, as they're uncontrollable sociopaths otherwise, espeicalyl seeing as a Vampire can do the following under practice-
Make Dhampirs
Make Katanes
Make Vorlogs
Make Blood Ghouls
Make Death's Chosen
Take Levels in Master Vampire and Lifedrinker
Gain Salient abilities and Weaknesses, some capable of utterly compromising them as functional members of society
Breed Profusely
Come in many variants, some made by deites, magical experimentation or some tracing their origins to their patron deity, Kanchelsis.
Are CE as fuck-
Effectively, they can utterly displace a government if given leeway, there's also the matter of Bloodroot, a nasty drug that they covet like the bloood-drunk fucks they are

Orcus is not given his dues here, because if there's one way to bring the hammer down it's bringing his fat ass into the fray.

If we go by DnD logic, Demiliches are like senile old nobles that are respected, are asked about their opinion, but confined to their rooms because they need to "rest" most of the time.

As long as it's clear that the only reason they're not running the place themselves is that they've stopped giving a shit and are sending their consciousnesses to explore higher states of existence most of the time, sure.
Possibly something for the current lichking to look forward to in retirement.

In effect, things work like this -

Demiliches and Antedilluvian Vampires at top, keeping Divine retribution from smacking the country off the map, Demiliches can send one of their clones to assist matters on the material Plane if need be or a Patriach vampire can send a Single Spawn bolstered by levels of master Vampire and their stupid-broken-ass Salient abilities down to wreck shit and slice mountains in twain.

Lich ruler, who has the salient abilities situated for pupose of Country management (Lich sight, the abilities they get to control undead that show their eye sockets colouration, invade peoples dreams, stuff like that)

The Lich Rulers Vassaliches, potentially promoted from living masses well-versed in politics or aspiring Necromancers (See Ravenloft) these are out on Foreign missions of diplomacy most of the time

The Liches personal circle, Military, Spymaster, Right-hand men, the Treasurer, and choice outsider and liason to higher powers and whatnot.

Local Government (Parliment?) of Intelligent upper class Undead, Mummies, Necropolitans (Undead Template intelligent Undead) And High ranking Necromancers of various standings

Middle-class to commoners, with undead-like conditions, some Undead, local militia, preisthood, and places of wisdom run by mummies and such, and free-willed Juju zombies

We've then menial tasks run by skeletons and zombies, the undercity, run by Ghouls, Ghasts, and Wights, which leads into the Underdark, the living have their duties as well, some including them existing as food for upper classes next to petitioning to become Blood Ghouls, Thralls, or the like

Vampires are subject to Registration for maintained Thralls, Spawn, True Spawn, Age categories, and an alignment test and check for false intelligence and resgistrationg of they type of vampire they are.

Additional things to mention are the secret services and the operation of emergencies with the local Necromancers dealing with massive threats to the kingdoms security (Local crusade, experiment gone wrong, feral Undead, or Orcus Followers waving their special blend of murderhobo shit around.)

>lichking retirement

Fuck you, now I want to play a tired old lich who's retired.

What would an undead version of a fief be called?

A Polis? Both after a city-state and a necropolis?

Vampire Lords are of course forbidden as they're race-traitor cunts who sold out their powers to Orcus for loss of their true heritage to Kanchelsis, even if said deity doesn't give a fuck, as all respect is still paid to their progenitor in the Union of Eclipses.

The Highest Ranking tier of Vampires are-
Greater Vampires (Regular Vampire, but immune to sunlight at the cost of not using base template powers, still has Ability score though)
Horror Vampires (See DMG Bloodlines Super Fright Nite Vampires with Sunlight immunity based on their CHA and access to nightmarish SUs based on that facotr too)
Cerebral Vampires (Rarer, but are immune to Sunlight.)

Age category of course, does provide benefit irregardless of status, but the above vampires are the most functional in any society given due to their base abilities (To note, this also means these abilities are not nerfed in the case of the Greater Vampire gaining them past it's base set due to age categories)

Deitus Daggers are strictly forbidden in the city, because these things, if applied properly can utterly fuck an entire government structure over.

Maybe. I imagined Necropolis would be the name of the kingdom itself, in which case Polis would feel a little weird imo.

Assuming D&Desque rulesy diet and HD
Creatures that don't need to consume anything (liches) are the highest strata. Undead that eat spirit/life energy (vampires) are minor nobles. Undead that eat physical matter (ghouls, nosferatu) are yeomen/kulaks. Living creatures are serfs.

They would probably be classified depending on a size and an amount of possible corpses. Something like Necropolis > Cemetery > Mound.

I kind of dig what mound feels. Crypt, barrow? Maybe even a dolmen.

Vampires arrange themselves in Familial clans, but effectively things go like this via D&D rules from 2e-3.5
-True Vampire head
Overpowered fuck with 3 levels in Master Vampire, Templates including Enhanced Undead, Swarmshifter, or even with Spellstitched if he was made via a necromantic experiment, under contingency rules, next to this, his Salient abilities ensure spawn have much to inherit from him if made. Has Age Categories up to 500+ but not before the Ancient Age category, which is where they move up to the Highest tier of heirachy in extraplanar epic-level matters

-Vampire Brides
Specialized Companions the Head has courted and transformed via ritual, almost always a Blood Ghoul before transformation, shares a true Empathetic bond with her creator and loves him in an incredible truer sense of the word, moreso than real love the living hold, those that fail this process due to the sire dying become cursed creatures known as Vorlogs

-Head's Blood Ghouls
Effectively the same as the ones in VTMB, a Blood Ghoul can be anyone alive who partake in the Head's blood, Intimate contact with the head provide them with the like of the Lichloved or Tomb-tainted Soul feats, and make them viable as bodyguards with the Death's Chosen Prestige class, and in addition may be fit to sire (If male) the head's Children, which may be Dhampir or Katane offspring-

-Head's Offspring
Made from union with a Blood Ghoul or even normal compatible humanoid in sexual intercourse or by Energy Drain/Blood Drain being applied to a pregnant woman the Head's Offspring are Katane or Dhampir, and may one day inherit the powers of the grave when their time comes.

-True Vampires
Vampires made by Blood Drain or energy Drain in the head's control control if any, will attempt to overthrow their progenitor when they earn their freedom, starting a new hierarchy even more powerful than before because they have the abilities granted by their master woven into them. Some may be loyal, some may not.

-Head's controlled Vampire Spawn, which are few if any as his natural abilities next to levels in Master Vampire make Spawn small deployable one man armies that cannot be permitted to Unlive beyond performing important last minute Tasks, and because they are also a threat to their master by this reason alone

Then beneath this we have the NPC's with NPC class levels who feature the Vampire bloodline Class Levels that are descended directly from any of the head's Half-Vampire offspring.

2e.3.5 vampirism is fucking huge-
A Vampire has a massive selection of servants to take care of next to it's abilities gained as a Lord of the Land (Vampires get fucking Geomancy tier Leyline bulllshit Powers if they own baronies at some point) Age Categories like a Dragon, various types, control of True Vampires and lower Spawn, and the ability to have true love.

Vamps are pretty much perfect for managing Baronies in a Kingdom, he can literally be the forefather of every single person in a village.

Of course, Clans can vary based on how they arrange their hierarchies, the above has only listed everything available in general to all Vampires and their variants. The Regular Vampires, with enough time, will attempt to arrange themselves as I've depicted, but some are Spawn-Whores, some take others into the fold as an 'apprenticeship' and some, like Kassian vampires rarely breed, if at all.

Lastly, There are the Vryllocka, which aren't this "Oh so original" 4e-5e concept, but were literal AIDSpyres in Ravenloft, and they fucking mixed up the names.

The living Vampires are Vampyres, and they come from a non-cosmology plane just behind Ravenloft where all humans are Cattle and don't like the Undead Vampires so much. So yeah, there's that.

In terms of Religion-
Morning Glory and Wee Jas make up the relatable non-abominable parts of a decent D&D Undeath/Necromancy Faith, Wee Jas a Good girl and has the right perspective on how the dead die
Mellifleur is a better version of Velsharoon, Literally the Lich Version of Zyzz, and is a Luck God as well.
Kanchelsis is probably given his dues per Vlad Tolenkovs awful "I wanna Camarilla but my God is literally Concentrated deific Autism made Blood, Magic and Flesh"
Shar is a go to for all Shadow-Vampires and dwellers in the undercity, including Incorporeal Undead, Wraiths, Drow, and other such Lurker-tier monsters.
Whatever deity runs the pestilence Domain gets to be the solution to plague because of how his domain powers work, effectively becoming the !notnurgle of the setting.

The Militia is Led usually by Martial Orientated vampires, Death Knights for their abilities to recruit Undead, and Bone Warriors that were either willing or Unwilling in their Transformation, they of course have support from Necromancers for healing, maintenance of HD score and the like, and provide backup troops if needed.

Crimes should be few, but in the event of fugitives Savage Vampires with Ranger Levels can easily catch prey of that sort, literally Australian Swamp Outback as a Vampirsm type.

Just copy the KKK organization structure and see if your players notice.