Rant time >Run a high lethality game >players seem to be getting wise to the dungeons and world, advancing in levels, getting loot, delving into more dangerous places >Suddenly they all go full retard, with unarmed 5 strength wizards deciding to grapple monsters that they KNOW deal more damage than they have HP, mage/thieves deciding to use nothing but a crossbow instead of their goddamn Sleep spell while the party is murdered by goblins, and generally suddenly acting like suicidal morons.
So now the party is a single level 8 character and a bunch of level 1s (due to constant loss of levels from raise dead or rolling new characters)
Now I'm fine with asymmetric party levels but this is just... worse yet it seems like the people who have dropped to low levels are stuck in a death loop because either they've lost all sense of threat assessment, or have stopped giving a fuck. But they seem to have fun and show up reliably so. I'm at a loss as to what to do. Violate the established campaign rules and say 'fuck it, level 5 for you?' Death isn't supposed to be rewarded but damn, just damn, it's not fun for me the GM to sit there saying 'Ayup, you die, again, because you tried fighting 20 goblins head on instead of just riding away on your horses. Or casting sleep. Or using the cave chokepoint like you did LAST TIME to win'
But how are the players supposed to learn from their mistakes if I say 'congratulations for being retarded?' If this continues they'll just die at level 5 a bunch too and end up at level 1 again. They weren't this retarded in the past, what the fuck went wrong?
Having to make lower level characters as a 'punishment' for death is dumb. They lost the character, that's punishment enough.
If you're choosing to do it as a stylistic thing, just say that rather than giving it a half arsed justification.
Joshua Turner
Well, I'll go play somthing else. DnD with levels like this is just not fun. The level 8 will be bored and the level 1 s are stuck. Sounds like your games dead.
Aiden Morris
That is actually pretty standard for high-lethality old school games, though it was suggested that you didn't let characters with more than a 5 level difference play at the same campaign. Getting a fresh character at the same level as the old one is a necessity in newer systems that expect more plot-focused campaigns and complex character builds
Leo Carter
Yes, and in that context it's a stylistic thing, not a 'punishment' for death.
In general I think game design or GMing things designed to 'punish' players are dumb, and if that's the angle you're coming from you'd be better off going back to the drawing board.
Justin Nguyen
What kind of retard runs a high-lethality game with a leveling system/choose to start from level one?
If you want things gritty and realistic, don't fucking use a text-based videogame like D&D to do it.
Jonathan Lopez
Are you playing old school rpg, with players who play it old school. Are they drawing out the maps? Are they checking how much they are carrying ?
What it sounds like op, is they got bored. Even if they don't know it themself's. They got fed up with using sleep, bottle necking and running out of range to shoot an arrow and keep backing up,
Grayson Russell
Try dcc
Owen Flores
I'm not OP, but yes, most "old school" campaigns still have a mapper. And even 5e has encumbrance rules.
Angel Ross
This exact problem is why I generally don't make Resurrection or re-rolling cost levels, and why I replace all permanent level-loss damage with suitably traumatic damage to the things the characters hold dear (beautiful female character gets aged, while the noble plowshares-to-swords farmer-fighter loses the memory of the day he and his wife first met etc...)
It does seem that some of the level loss and re-rolling stuff seems to be a part of the nostalgic-style of your game, so that's fine, but if you're already making concessions for style, then it's not a stretch to say "fuck it, a 1-8 gap is too much, and captain 'still 8th level' wouldn't bother teaming with mooks, so [chosen level] is the least experienced he'll debase himself to work with, so that's what you're making."
Remember, your job is to provide a fun experience for everyone, including yourself, not to be a mindless slave to the rulebook. If we wanted a game run procedurally according to a set of pre-defined rules that could never be fudged, we'd be playing video games. The DM, with his/her qualitative judgement, exists for a reason.
Joshua Cox
So I take it you have no idea about editions earlier than 3e?
Cooper Rivera
Like he said it's specific to very old school dungeon crawlers games and Gygax and his friends never played the same characters for long so it wasn't a problem. The problem here seems to be incomptatible game conventions.
Adam Barnes
>They lost the character, that's punishment enough. That depends on if they are a roleplayer or a rollplayer. The rollplayer wouldn't care. Meanwhile the constant loss of characters would wear down the roleplayer until they stop caring about their characters. Converting them to rollplayers.
That sounds like what's happened. The have been so many PC deaths that players stopped caring about their PCs.
Jeremiah Stewart
They also played stats rolled down the line. Op never said what system he was running (unless I'm blind) But there is a reason most people don't play dnd1 anymore apart from the kick of playing one of the first systems ever. Games have just got better (Says the guy who's dav system is a minor update from an 80's system )
Joseph Bailey
This. You made the game equivalent of a dungeon with a single trap in it. They get punished for making a mistake and now the rest of the game is on hold while they make up for it -- and now your game is ruined.
Samuel Morris
People don't play the LBBs anymore, no, and almost exclusively grogs play AD&D. B/X, though, still has a pretty active community
Gavin Lewis
>Suddenly they all go full retard, with unarmed 5 strength wizards deciding to grapple monsters that they KNOW deal more damage than they have HP.... >they've lost all sense of threat assessment, or have stopped giving a fuck.
It's the latter. They are bored with your game, but having nothing better to do and no one has the motivation to take over.
Have some boardgame nights, stop running your dull, uninspiring game for a while.
Luke Gutierrez
run an adventure for the level 1s until they catch up, showcasing ways the previous party changed the world: skellies raised in the old orc cave, slimes have taken over the sewer now that they're no longer being eaten by rats, the one questgiver has secured his town and now marches to war against the kobolds, maybe even have the sole surviving PC play as the BBEG, giving him an CL and GP budget to make and run encounters while you referee, play other NPCs, and keep whatever long-term plot ticking.
A high-lethality group is typically a group that wants wargame with occasional storyline, so running five solo adventurers into various bits and pieces of his 1500-point orc army until they're level 5 and can either take him on and join him would probably appeal to everyone there.
John Reed
FPBP
Hudson Parker
For all those confused, this is indeed 3d6 down the line oldschool grognard shit.
It's an online game so attempts to get feedback by talking to the players is like pulling teeth. Except people will actually willingly have their teeth pulled before saying 'hey GM I think XYZ about the campaign' apparently. Even leading questions go nowhere or get 'lol I dunno' or 'GG, I had fun.' So the official stance of everyone is that everything is fine. When it clearly seems not fine to me.
Anyway there's some good advice here so thanks all (except you filthy speedreaders, but you'll miss this anyway)
Jason Torres
>But how are the players supposed to learn from their mistakes This is a stupid assumption to make. It almost never happens, certainly not by killing their characters over and over again, since they probably won't build much in the way of attachment.
Just accept that they're tactical morons and will probably never improve.
Chase Evans
Playing a game of Roll20 right now, and I agree. I try to provide constructive feedback, but it's hard when nobody else seems to care.
>filthy speedreaders I resemble that remark, Faggot.
Cooper Foster
Whether or not it's true they're bored and stuff, you're just being a dick
Adrian Gutierrez
Hey now, I appreciated that guy's posts. He is wrong about the game being dull and uninspired, but we've been playing 2-3 times a week for 4 months. I think a break or a change may be in order after all.
In general I am agreeing with the sentiment here >What it sounds like op, is they got bored. Even if they don't know it themself's.
Especially that last line. Bored but unable to identify why.
Blake Brown
Sounds like they're messing with you.
Dominic Rogers
There's no problem with running a high lethality game if you state it up front, everyone is aware and cool with the idea.
Furthermore, nothing wrong with a lvl disparity. Try to think outside the box. It can create a more interesting party dynamic when there is a clear leader with henchmen, or a knight with squires, or a wizard with bodyguards, than the usual stereotypical fare of fantasy team of 'superfriends'. blogofholding.com/?p=3900
Furthermore, despite it being a high lethality game, instead of straight up murdering them, throw in alternatives. Sure maybe the goblins just kill them, but maybe they capture them as slaves for a while, to work in their mines, or to sell them to hobgoblins, or whatever, presenting an opportunity to escape.
Lastly, it seems you're taking the campaign way more seriously than most of your players. This isn't unusual, most people who GM a game will have spent a lot of time and energy considering it.
There's only two solutions to it. Either run the game that the players you already have want to play, or the far more better suggestion, find the more tactical/serious players who want to play the sort of game you want to run. They're out there.
Lincoln Reyes
>players who want to play the sort of game you want to run this
Adrian Martinez
My DM used to run high-lethality games and frankly, sometimes you just want to play beer&pretzel games, not chess. That's when most of my characters died in game - when i was tired and unfocused.
