Not doing your Research

I would have guess he just took creative freedom.
yet again... this is the guy who names the characters

Mia the Lamia
Papi the Harpy
Centora the Centaur
Rachnera the Arachnera
...
so maybe there wasnt much creativity there...
Im still waiting for him to add a Human girl name
Yuman or Yumana

cute
here's an idea, thread

if kobolds are supposed to somehow descend from dragons (even if that's new fluff), what sort of dragons would dog/ratbolds descend from or be related to?

I propose pic related

>the original japanese translation for D&D took "dog like head" and left it at that.
I thought they botched it into 'dog head'.

He didn't take creative liberties, it was the guys in the late 70s/early 80s translating D&D who did it. I'd be surprised if Okayado had played D&D at all.

Okay, what if lthere was an USA American Kobold, with the dragon like features?
would that be fitting?

If you're playing 3e onwards, that's just a normal kobold. If you're playing 2e or earlier it's its own thing.

Have you ever seen a dog, user?

That pic looks exactly like a pug.

Both of you havent done your homework.

The first instances of japs seeing western fantasy in action were vidyagames, not DnD, which however were based on ADnD and ODnD and made by nerds for nerds to emulate Pen&Paper. Nevermind that in tons of early Textbased Adventures they were describes as ''dog-faced'' too.

This. Specifically the Wizardry games which feature dogbolds.

"Kobold" in fantasy is a term largely devoid of inherent meaning. In Japan they're doglike. In D&D they're recently lizardlike and earlier something else. In folklore they're just little people.
I think most people would agree that "kobold" doesn't sound like a very large creature, but beyond that there's quite little in common.

But dogbolds bestbolds.

that's what all the kobolds in my game look like whats the problem?

Are you playing Heroines of the First Age, MAID or Pathfinder?

Why don't we just go get a real kobold and compare?

Oh right, because they're fucking imaginary.

It's one of the examples of divergent evolution in Japanese versions of western fantasy creatures. ODD kobolds had both dog like and reptilian traits (they had scaly skin but dog like faces) In the west kobolds abandoned the doglike traits and changed into little lizard people in DnD 3.5 (although 5th edition gave them dog noses again), while in Japan they lost the reptilian traits and became dog people (probably influenced by Wizardry videogame where kobolds are more dog like and translators of ODD changing/mistranslating the line about them having dog like faces to them being dog like). Other examples include pig orcs (based on ODD monster manual art), "glutton tail" succubi, aka. tailvorecubi (based on...nobody seems to know for sure), and slimes being the standard low-level adventurer fodder (based on Dragon Quest videogames).

If anybody can think of other examples, I'd like to know, as this is a subject I think it would be interesting to do a presentation about in some con.

wut

Weren't a bunch of D&D monsters based off of plastic toys?

Yuan-Yuan edition?

Yukio best girl.

>just like in spanish there is a confusion between sirens and mermaids.
It's not just spanish, the half-fish women were created from a wrong transcription of the Odissey where sirens were said to be covered in fins instead of feathers

Kobolds are fantasy creatures, so they can be pretty much whatever you want.

Bulette, rust monster, and owlbear are all based on these weird nondescript creatures that you for some reason find in bags of cheap plastic dinosaur toys along with the actual dinosaurs. Gygax used those toys to represent monsters, and ended up making stats for the weirdo ones since nobody knew what they were supposed to be.

Wish he did the rest desu.

What's wrong with Ms Smith?

What, like, in Monster Whatever?
Could be pretty fun.

A kobold is a German house spirit resembling an ugly little man

What are you niggers smoking?

Nothing, But her name doesnt sound like her species like the rest of the girls.

But Smith is one of the most common last names, excluding Chinese names.

The trouble is that that "lizardman" is already a common name for a lizard people but there is no ready term for dog people.

So anyone searching for dog people will find "kobold" as the first response because there is nothing else there, it's a feedback loop.

To solve the issue a new acceptable generic fantasy term for a dog person is required.

Either that or accept that the taxonomy of fictional creatures is a waste of time and energy and go do something better with your life eh?

I remember a screencap of some online discussion where a common bitch in her common ignorance called out tale of Beauty and Beast as something that wouldn't work if genders were reversed because men are shallow like that, only to get swarmed by people declaring their love for Polt and monstergirls in general.

You know, for all of his shit Oyakado does perhaps too much research.

He probably knew about "real" kobolds in DND, but -rightly so- didn't give a fuck.

That's a little more complex than that.

Basically you have two myths:

The greek one. Homer had them as something kinda oracular with wings, but the gist was more about the "we know shit that you couldn't imagine" thing. Odyssey:

But them, the Seirenes (Sirens) saw the quick vessel near them and raised their voices in high clear notes : ‘Come hither, renowned Odysseus, hither, you pride and glory of all Akhaia (Achaea)! Pause with your ship; listen to our song. Never has nay man passed this way in his dark vessel and left unheard the honey-sweet music from our lips; first he has taken his delight, then gone on his way a wiser man. We know of all the sorrows in the wide land of Troy that Argives and Trojans bore because the gods would needs have it so; we know all things that come to pass on the fruitful earth.’

>I now realized greek seirenes are lovecraftian in a way

The mermaid (half-woman, half fish or half seal) thing come from northern europe. Yeah, we all know that it's more universal, but the usual shit, the tragic love, the changing form, the beauty, the taboo, the living on land and all, it's pretty circumscript, mermaid, selkie or melusine. Even near eastern/arab myths are pretty differnt, if anything similar to the greek one.
>the males are mostly an aftertought but apparently during the middle ages they tought of them more

Amusingly enough, Mero being a princess might not even a Crhistian Andersen thing. Check out the House of Lusignan.

In languages derived from latin (it applies to french, spanish, I think portoguese, certainly italian) it was all conflated on one word, from greek, while the imagery is the fishwoman but in a way it makes sense: we don't really connect the mermaid with the greek myth, aside from the voice.

Based Darling know his shit.

That's not a Kobold, Japanese are autistic and just made this furryshit to give autism to hundreds if not thousands of westerners.

>her fur is especially thick near the abdomen/crotch so it is practically impossible to shave
Bueno...

Furshit is worse than scaleshit?

Being interested in biology, I find it interesting how well this sort of memetic evolution of fantasy cretaures parallels actual evolution. The situation is very similar to what might happen when individuals of a species end up isolated from the main population, for example on an island, and without contact to the main population evolve along a different path and become a new species.

In case of orcs, the western orcs have over time lost the piglike face (although they still retain traces of it, namely the tusks and often a somewhat upturned nose), while their Japanese relatives retain basal ("primitive") traits of their last common ancestor. But like most "living fossils" Japanese orcs aren't actually the same thing as ODD orcs, they've just haven't undergone as dramatic change as their western cousins.

With kobolds, you see a clear case of divergence. The last common ancestor of DnD kobolds and Japanse kobods had reptilian and mammalian traits. In west, the reptilian traits became more promiment at the expense of the mammalian traits, causing kobolds to evolve into small lizard-people. In Japan, the opposite happened, with kobolds losing any reptilian traits and becoming dog-people.

The case of the tailvore-succubus is particularly interesting because most Japanse portrayals of succubi are not very different from western ones (in the phylogenetic analogy we can think of them as a subspecies; distinct enough from their western counterpart that you can differentiate the two but stimilar enough that they're still clearly the same creature), and the vore-cubi seems to have more or less come out of nowhere (there's nothing about the western succubus that would naturally lead to people deciding they can use their tail to eat people, so it's probably somethign somebody pretty much randomly came up with and others then copied). A phylogenetic equivalent would be a beneficial mutation propagating in a subset of the population, allowing them to exploit a new ecological niche and eventually resulting in speciation. As the new species does not directly compete with its parent species the two can coexist and due to the very specialized niche the new species has evolved to fill it remains less common than its more generalist parent.

Kobolds are just a catch-all for every setting's vermin-folk.
Our kobolds are different, just like our trolls are different and our zombies are different.

Relevant.

I dread to ask, but what is a tailvore-succubus?

NO! Kobolds are dragonfolk, kobolds are superior! You can take our dungeons, but you'll never take our FREEDOM!

>actually this game is more interesting that you would think

A type of succubus that sometimes appears in hentai, which has an orifice on the tip of her tail that allows her to swallow up people. Don't know if there's an official name for them, but the common one seems to be tailmouth or glutton tail succubus.

Nobody seems to know where exactly they come from, but being inspired by Dragoball's Cell (who also had a tail that he could use to swallow up people to assimilate them) is a common theory.

I prefer dogbolds and porks anyway.

Loads of cultures have some form of dog-headed people and the general term in English is cynocephalus.

13th century and onwards European depictions of demons commonly have a demon's tail ending in a snake's head, lion's tassel or more rarely a scorpion's sting. These were simplified in engravings and became the spade that you more commonly see today.

If a jap skipped out on recent portrayals of demons and went directly to old demon dictionaries their first experience with western demons would be that some have mouths on their tails. They probably made the succubus tail mouth look like a fleshlight because snakes aren't known for the skill at blowjobs.

It would be like someone looking up the original kobolds and putting them in their setting as spirits (possibly of dead miners) that look like old men who hide in mines and place curses on certain ores resulting in clouds of poison gas. The pre-d&d kobolds were closer to a cross between goblins (which has the same root word as kobold) and tommyknockers, with no relation to lizards or dogs.

That's new. Oh well. I don't get vore, but honestly doesn't disgust me either.

I'd be curious about other cases of divergent evolution. In Japan it happened before a common game market and when english was even more obscure. Where else could it have happened? Perhaps Russia?

>cynocephalus

Skiapod cute girls when?

>A type of succubus that sometimes appears in hentai, which has an orifice on the tip of her tail that allows her to swallow up people.

Eating people with their tails, huh?

Interesting...

>13th century and onwards European depictions of demons commonly have a demon's tail ending in a snake's head, lion's tassel or more rarely a scorpion's sting. These were simplified in engravings and became the spade that you more commonly see today.
I haven't thought about this in connection to the vore-cubi, although I knew the standard pointy demon-tail is derived from medieval demons sometimes being descipted with a live snake for a tail (Japanese non-vore succubi also deem to take the pointy tail and make it more heart-shaped compared to western ones). While I do believe Cell is probably a huge inspiration (due to DBZ being massively popular in Japan when it came out, meanign pretty much everybody who grew up at the time would be familiar with it, and the tail-mouth is usually drawn working exactly like Cell's tail), but the snake-tail might be the missing piece connecting Cell and succubi. i.e. somebody learned that demons used to be descipted with a mouth at the end of their tail and combined that with Cell from DBZ to get a succubus that uses a tail-mouth to absorb people.

Can't think of as many modern cases (Russia might have them, but I'm not very familiar with Russian takes of western fantasy creatures), but historically this is actually very common. Look at mythology of nearby countries with similar cultures, and you'll find a lot of examples of different takes on the same kind of creature. For example, different variations of Scandinavian trolls, or vampires in Romania and nearby countries. Japan makes for a good "natural laboratory" since the memetic mutations are much more recent and therefore easier to trace.

I kind of want to stat these things in DnD.

Well we couldn't have our allegory for everybody that isn't white be smart, now could we

Did you miss the part where they explicitly mentioned Cell?

I did, yes.

Probably because Tolkien viewed industrialisation as an evil. He loved the English countriside and certainly didn't approve factories and coal mines polluting the pristine landscape he grew up in, and having fought in WWI knew firsthand how horrifying industrial-scale warfare could be (despite enduring belief LotR is not an alegory to WWI or II, but fighting in the war definitely shaped Tolkien's worldview and thus affected his writing). Thus the bad guys using building huge smoke-belching furnaces and cutting down ancient forests to feed the fires of military industry.
However, as most people today tend to see industrialisation as a good thign due to it resulting in a lot of nice technology ve rely on, associating it primarily with the villains doesn't work as well. Instead orcs get associated with what we consider the worst aspects of humanity: cruelty, violence, savagery and ignorance.

Basically this^. Kobolds were originally a type of German fairy, IIRC. Reptilian Kobolds are relatively new and are entirely a D&D creation. Dog people kobolds are based off of the vaguely canine picture in the AD&D MM.

Should have called them gnolls, though due to translation issues kobolds were always described as dog-like in the Japanese version of D&D, so Japanese authors always picture kobolds as looking like dogs.

To be fair tough at least since Warcraft orcs are kinda different.

Problem is he kinda grew up when industrialization was more nasty... and NOT just confined to cities proper.

Who knows, maybe nowdays he would think a little different. Maybe he would have the orcs be angry because mordor is Shenzen.

Actually, kobols being depicted as mammal-like animal/humanoids are not just Japanese thing.

Sapkowski's Witcher universe described a kobolds vaguely as furry humanoids, with possibly cat-like traits. Which is honestly more true to the folklore creature origin than modern Dn'D depiction.

You do realize that you accuse others of being autistic while simultaneously saying that ONE depiction in one particular set of really bad fantasy guidelines is the only correct depiction?

He did not see industrialization as evil. He thought it can be destructive to the environment, and often as an eye-sore. You don't have to hate industrialization to make a quick aesthetic connection between industrial zone and a symbol of corruption though.

Did these exist before or after the monstergirl Manticore with her emphasis on the supposedly erotic, but super spiky tail?

Well, I ended up doing it. Would still need the fluff text, and probably change in CR. It has the same CR as regular succubus, but replaces ability to shapeshift and the draining kiss with a tail attack and swallow whole that functions partially like the draining kiss. It only does less the damage of the draining kiss (average 10 instead of 32), but can be used in combat against non-charmed targets as well (provided it first hits with the tail attack and target doesn't break the grapple before it gets to attack again) and deals that damage every round the target is swallowed, which might still make it too powerful (although average damage per round wise it is within the range for the CR).

Found it for you.

I mean, kobolds were originally dog-like, not lizard-like, so it's just a monstergirl interpretation of the original concept. Nothing wrong with that.

The giant hands really get my engine going, goddamn.

I'm quite sure they existed before MGE. The most famous example is Alma Elma from Monstergirl Quest, but she's not the first one. I don't know what exactly is the first example of a tailmouth succubus in hentai, and while it actually would be intresting to know where they originated from I don't have the time or fortitude to trawl the dark corners of the internet for the firt recorded instance of a succubus eating somebody with its tail.

OP, as always: depends on the setting.
:^)

...

> Use trope/race straight
HURR DUURRR DAS BORING

> Change it up
HOW AM I MEANT TO KNOW WHAT IS WHAT IF THAT IS NOT THAT REEEEE

It might as well be the most common human name.
In a few years it will be made public that the chinese are actually insectoids from the underground, living in hollowed shells of the dead the ancient chinese(human ones) buried
Very few chinese are still alive, with some of the decoys being used for hundreds of years on end by the damn bugs.

Perhaps Violated Hero? I haven't actually played the games myself, but it might be one in there somewhere.

>tfw found vore absolutely repulsive until discovering those image sets ripped from the MGQ vore oriented spin offs
The internet really does corrupt.

One fucking corporation shows konolds as lizards and you dweebs think that's all they have ever been. Because of a bizarre marketing decision by one company in the mid 1990s. Fuck the germanic folklore and thousands of years of stories, a recent company used the term for yet another lizard species.

She's the granddaughter of John Smith, the protagonist of another comic by the same author.

John Smith being one of the most bland and generic names possible without going into the Doe family.

I thought all the Doe family were dead?

So which monstergirl's in her family tree?

I still find Polt weird. Can't tell where the fur ends and the skin begins.

None in her direct lineage, presumably, since she's human, but John Smith fucked a lot of monstergirls under the guise of "research", so she probably has some monstergirl relatives in her family tree

This is gold! This is one of the days I am proud to be this weird

There is no "skin begins".

It's just thick fur and thin fur.

Veeky Forums- Fantasy Evolutionary Biologists

I dunno, she seems pretty unfurred to me. Weird.

wait, shit does that make polt Furry?

No, it's still safe zone of 25%

All monstergirls are furry user. They're just for furries in denial

She's borderline

anthro and furry is a bit different - all furry are anthro, but not all anthro are furry

>it was all conflated on one word, from greek, while the imagery is the fishwoman but in a way it makes sense: we don't really connect the mermaid with the greek myth, aside from the voice.
it creates some funny situation though. For instance according to the myth the city of naples was founded where fishermen found the body of the syren Parthenope after she had drowned herself for failing to kill Odysseus.
Now for fishwoman it doesn't really make sense does it.
Ancient portraials actually show her as a birdwoman while after the 1700 they started showing her as a fishwoman, so in the city there are many mermaid statues

well that depiction of gnolls is wrong too if we follow the myth, so there's that.
that's essentially the concept of meme as Dawkins first put it

The earliest I recall seeing it is Disgaea 1 in 2003. The tail doubled as an extra mouth witch could bite, drain, and launch magical attacks.
>youtu.be/XVFFbCz6GQA?t=418
Monster Girl Quest and Violated Hero both came out around 2011 or so. Alma Elma also bears an uncanny resemblance to the Disgaea 3(2008) Succubus design. The semi sentient tail seems to absent in this design though.

I can see your SAN crumbling from here user. Just accept it.

>to be fair I'm in denial too - to me monstergirls are acceptable if there is a decently-sized human part. Suu is debatable to me but honestly I don't really get her as "hot"

After the 1700? THAT's interesting actually. I mean, might point out when even in a city in which people had reasonable knowledge of their classical the name shifted.

It's just very short shiny fur, not dissimilar to what's on a horse.

Furry is furry, doesn't really matter though as long as your not a faggot about it.

or fairies and elfs. In continental europe those were very similar creatures/spirits, noble races, of human heights with various powers. Tolkien elfs or the fairy godmother in pinocchio are example of this.
But in the UK they got mixed with various tiny irish spirits, like the pixies, giving us the small fairies, elfs or feys.

>After the 1700?
well i sort of guessed that was the century when the meaning shifter, for sure by the 19th century all the portrayals are or mermaids. While the last portrayal as a birdwoman that I can think of is from the 17th century.
for instance this was in 1498
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_of_the_Spinacorona
and this was from the 17th century
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Delle_imprese_trattato_detail.jpg

while this from 1869 is clearly a mermaid
it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fontana_della_Sirena

But even with the Irish version there we're larger more human sized things and in the continental and northern versions there were also small folk, it's mostly just a case of elf or fairy being more of a generic term to refer to damn dear any old supernatural creature.

My metric for monstergirls is thus: If it has a snout, I am out. That stuff is just a tad too far for me.