/wfg/ Warhammer Fantasy General

I imagine the life of a skaven goes along the lines of you're born, 50/50 chance you make it to childhood without being eaten by your mother/siblings, you get taken away by your clan to get your basic education, which at first involves basic socializing and teaching about the horned rat. If you demonstrate enough ability, you may be selected by the specialists for more education to be an engineer or gutter runner or whatever, else you end up either joining the ranks of the clan rats or the slaves.

As far as food, they probably get most of it through scavenging, stealing, or raiding. I imagine most of the manufacturing falls to the slave class, who are mostly competent because that's how you stay alive and not end up in a slave block on a battlefield somewhere.

You can check the Children of the Horned Rat supplement for a description of a typical skaven city. They scavenge for food in human settlements, trade among themselves and there are some mentions of agriculture around Skavenblight. But the logistics in Warhammer do not always make sense. The skaven burrows are supposed to be at least twice or triple the size of the cities above them and on top of that the skaven are so voracious that they need to eat their own weight in food every day, preferably in meat. Even with cannibalism there's no way they could realistically feed themselves.

Of course at a higher level you could also say that the idea of a entire race of chaotic sociopaths building a sprawling and complex hidden empire is a bit contradictory in the first place.

Come to think of it, I imagine the skaven are a lot like the Chinese: cheap, theiving, and untrustworthy with a shit ton of them. Their society functions, but the value placed on life is relatively small, although still there if you piss off the wrong people with bad milk powder or something. They will fuck anyone over, but they manage to keep it to a minimum amongst themselves because they know they will fuck each other over, so there is an honor on god skaven thing going on.

It would also make sense for them to trade via slaves or with particularly greedy merchants, the type of shit like how cartoons are made in North Korea but no one ever talks about it. They keep a low enough profile it takes a dedicated witch hunter to figure out someone's trading with skaven, but the rest of the time it's some sleezeball trading cloth for wheat and not worrying too much about the other guy being a cloaked figure with a speech impediment.

>honor among skaven

Fuck

My understanding is that there is zero honor. If they killed a lot of skaven with bad milk powder you get murdered because those were foot soldiers the leader could use, not because he cared about their lives.

Is this a right or wrong assessment?

>Come to think of it, I imagine the skaven are a lot like the Chinese: cheap, theiving, and untrustworthy with a shit ton of them.

That's seriously fucking insulting man, what's wrong with you? I know this is Veeky Forums, but come on man, you were raised better.

Seriously, comparing the Chinese to Skaven? The Skaven are brilliant innovators and inventors! How could you be so callous?

That's correct, it's actually very similar to China in that regard.

Greenskins make their own weapons, they were taught by Chaos Dwarfs.

If I remember correctly, Skavenslayer has one example of a skaven wanting to avenge his dead associate and the fluff around the stormvermin mentions that they have some esprit de corps compared to common skaven. But even those feelings are easily overriden by self-interest and preservation.

That particular Skaven was more angry that his plans were set back with the death of his littermate, not because he had any personal attachment.

You're probably right. My memory is a bit hazy but I remember reading something about him being sufficiently close to the other skaven that he could almost trust him. Of course as you said the main cause of his anger would be the fact that he had lost a valuable asset.

Didn't the Queek novels also depict his bodyguard as being particularly loyal to him?

The problem with your example, racism aside, is that China was in a very fertile region of the world. It could support a large population. And China also for most of its history had a centralized, somewhat meritocratic government, not the backstabbing half-confederacy only barely kept in line by the Council of Thirteen, who are all trying to one-up each other anyway.

Meritocracy is very much a backstabbing form of advancement. The thing with Skaven is that the fluff writers are so obsessed with writing them as traitorous backstabbers they miss the point that loyalty can have its own rewards, through either fear of your master finding out you fucked him or your master actually treating his underlings well because you want to actually buy their loyalty versus hoping you bullied them well enough not to fuck you over.

I'd say the big thing with skaven society is that there probably isn't a slave morality like we have in the west, which is to say where we tend to revile the rich as undeserving of their wealth and acting like there is nobility in poverty, and that a man's word is more important than his own wellbeing, skaven are constantly trying to claw their way up and and treat honesty as something that's useful until it's not. I would imagine the upper echelons of skaven society should function quite well for an individual until they fuck up and meet a grisly end through accident or plot. Sure the clans fight amongst themselves over politics, but it's not really that different than anyone else.

>The thing with Skaven is that the fluff writers are so obsessed with writing them as traitorous backstabbers they miss the point that loyalty can have its own rewards, through either fear of your master finding out you fucked him or your master actually treating his underlings well because you want to actually buy their loyalty versus hoping you bullied them well enough not to fuck you over.

The CotHR supplement had some interesting bits about skaven leadership. Basically it's about being sufficiently harsh to deter would-be plotters without making the lives of your underlings such a living hell that they will try anything to get rid of their tormentor.

>Speaking of underlings, it is a Skaven’s duty to treat lower Ratmen as harshly as possible. They would do nothing less if they were in your position, and there is nothing to be gained by being kind. A Skaven’s troops should live in fear of their master’s smell, and with the constant knowledge he is above them in all ways. What is more, should they ever even consider thinking otherwise, or failing to follow orders, they must know your vengeance will be swift, brutal, absolute and terrifying. Of course, truly excessive cruelty can also provide too much motivation for rebellion. The desired balance is to ensure that underlings fear terrible retribution if they cross you, yet also believe they are better off with you than anyone else. This makes them afraid to consider assassination, and even those who consider it are more likely to squabble over who will lead afterwards than to actually carry out their plans.

I'm not trying to deny that China had any corruption or anything, but their exam system allowed people of any background, with the right education, to reach a high place in their society. If there was a lot of backstabbing involved before the corruption at the top, I'm not really aware of it, beyond the difficulty in the poor getting tutors.

Quite frankly, I'm annoyed at both Skaven and the Dark Elves for having such a focus on backstabbing, to the point that you have to bend over backwards to explain how their seemingly anarchic system manages anything. It's like a parody that you aren't supposed to think too hard about or it'll collapse, and you have to include your own ideas and interpretations if you want to keep it together - or, GW are secretly geniuses who managed to make societies that are completely alien to our own, both on the individual and group level.

So how's this Man'o'War game? I'm thinking about buying it but I'm not really sure

Like a poor man's M&B/Pirates

Machiavelli emphasized something similar. Fear is superior to love, as love is fickle and reliant on selflessness. But the one thing you always must avoid is hatred; when someone hates you enough, fear is no longer a deterrent.

On a similar note, leaders often took in foreigners to serve as their bodyguard, since if the leader died, the bodyguards would almost certainly be killed as well, thus undermining any an all incentive for betrayal.

I believe skaven society should be emphasized as the "bad" end state of this game: ncase.me/trust/ , where everyone in society is treacherous, meaning any true cooperation is self-destructive due to the complete lack of trust or expectation of trust. There's no way for an individual skaven to change this system, even if they recognized that cooperation would be in each other their individual best interests. While other societies might abide more by a Might Makes Right ethos (greenskins, ogres) or darwinian "cull the weak" mindsets (dark elves, chaos), skaven would be perpetually stuck in a massive tragedy of the commons due to their short sightedness. Which makes them better overall as a parody of modern human society.

Truly, the only correct answer is mindless obedience from undead servants.

How does Dhar differ from Chaos magic?

It doesn't.

Dhar is taking the winds of magic smashing them all together in a lazy way of doing high magic.

Chaos magic is just taking the raw stuff and use it, not bothering to wait until it starts "making sense" and separates into winds, like a pussy.

Technically, all magic is Chaos. Dhar is the raw mix of the winds of magic, occasionally 'trapped' and congealed in some area with a lot of death and suffering or something like that. Dark Elf Sorceresses use it, and Necromancers and Vampires use a refined form of Dhar based off of that (because that's what Nagash learned, mixing Dhar and Nehekharan practices together.)

Technically all the magic of a Chaos Sorcerer is Dhar, just occasionally shaped to the whims of a patron deity like Slaanesh or Tzeentch, or perhaps focused by earlier study if they're a fallen Magister or something.

Dhar = drawing from the unfiltered Wind of Magic without separating it into manageable chunks, and without imposing the rigorous forms and balances of Saphery. Destructive, dangerous, and wild. Usually invokes otherworldly creatures but not the Chaos Gods.

Chaos Magic = Dhar drawn straight from one of the four Ruinous Powers.

Dhar is "dark magic," and there are two types. Common dhar, usually just called 'dhar' is created by a caster when they 'grab' any and all magic energy at hand and violently force it together. This invariably involves multiple winds and you get black magic as a result.

'True dhar' is naturally occurring dhar. When magic doesn't flow, it tends to stagnate and coalesce into natural dark magic. This is incredibly powerful stuff, but very dangerous and destructive, and tends to corrupt mind and body.

'Chaos magic' is a really broad thing. All magic is ultimately Chaos, but when people say 'Chaos magic' specifically, they usually mean magic granted by a Chaos god. In this way, it's very similar to the so-called miracles of the accepted gods, a boon granted rather than a prize wrested by willpower, though with Chaos worshipers it's sometimes hard to say where prayer ends and willpower begins. This magic is almost always dhar-fueled, but it doesn't have to be. Tzeentch is the master of ALL magic.

>Necromancers and Vampires use a refined form of Dhar based off of that (because that's what Nagash learned, mixing Dhar and Nehekharan practices together.)

It just occurred to me, and stop me if I'm speaking nonsense, but suddenly it clicked in my head that that using Dhar and mixing it with Nehekaran theology is in essence manufacturing "artifical winds of magic" based on the aspects of the soul, to make the use of Dhar more... digestible for human brains to manipulate, in much the same way Teclis divided High Magic into the eight winds.

The brilliancy of Nagash's system is that he crafted it so a necromancer could use all of his aspects at a time instead of being forced into s ingle path like the magic colleges, most likely by making the whole art dedicated to a specific subject.

Nagash is without a doubt the most brilliant wizard that ever was, and if he weren't such a cunt he might have stood a fair chance of beating Chaos.

As it was he was the only enemy the Four took very seriously since the War of Vengeance.

...

youtube.com/watch?v=h7e3jCd62C0
>High Elf slave for his personal use
What did he mean by this?

Honestly, probably torture.

This sort of tracks with the old school elementalism, battle magic, illusionists and demonologists of 1ed. Although certain winds lended themselves more fully to a particular brand of magic, there were occasions where a wizard would clearly have been calling on multiple winds to achieve his goal.

The notion that by specialising into a particular focussing branch of magic they could extend their ability to use multiple winds makes a sort of sense.

What is Nehekharan theology, anyway? I thought their magic was mostly divine-based.

Is sylvania *lost* or could the empire reconguer it?

Sylvania could be reconquered, but vampires have a bad habit of not staying permanently dead, and Sylvania's thin soil, warpstone taint, and hostile population mean it'd be difficult to hold and not lucrative for most landholders. Your peasants are likely to actively work to restore the Vampire Counts, who are no more brutal but tax far less. If they're REALLY lucky, they get someone like Countess Gabriella, who is a velvet glove ruler.

It was technically reconquered at one point, it was just settled by unhappy Stirland nobles who didn't like what was essentially an exile to Schiessestadt. Whether it could have really been held for long by a more dedicated group of rulers is the real question, but I imagine it'd be like Mousilion - no matter what you do, it'll keep being a little fucked up.

Parts of it have been retaken occasionally. The problem is that the land itself is twisted by Necromancy and the undead's presence. Also
You could absolutely retake it, but you'd need a full blown religiously motivated fire-and-sword crusade with gratuitous grinding castles and tombs to dust, overturning graves and mounds and burning woods down and replanting them. And the Empire is too preoccupied with squabbling to even cut down forests to deal with Beastmen, let alone organize an effort to clean up Sylvania, which would probably only really benifit Stirland and Ostermark anyway.

Well you know they were massive death fetishists, so the mortuary cult spent an autistic amount of time coming out with a complex theory about everything involving death.

Nagash developed necromancy based on the concept of the soul according to the Nehekarans. Here, that nerd Mannlet went and described it in short.

Now, this might be just flavor text, but then it is explained that every type of undead creature is the result of combining different aspects of the Nehekaran soul with necromancy.

And here's the practical application.

...

Fin~

Skaven society is at default determined by skin color. White fur = albino guard, grey fur = grey seer, black fur = stormvermin, brown fur = commoner. You can go up or down depending on your success though.

Food is grown in and around their lairs. The skaven have simple agriculture and eat a lot of shit like rats and slaves. Most skaven are malnourished though, food is hard to come by.

Armorers exist for each clan.

Technically Nagash-style Necromancy does not make Dhar more "digestible."
Rather, what it does it makes your "stomach" able to handle Dhar.

I like how it uses bits of spirit terminology to define the different kinds of undead, that kind of stuff gets me excited.

I imagine this would be useful to steal for other settings to help create a Necromancy that's not necessarily evil, or to allow Necromancy alongside the usual afterlife or perhaps reincarnation, depending on what parts of the soul are used or necessary for the living and undead.

In the few seconds before I remembered Skaven farm owners would just use slaves for the grunt work, I pictured the life of an honest hard working Skaven farmer.

>Swipe away the sweat on your brow after plowing the field for the next harvest, a satisfied smile on your face
>Instinctively check your back for assassins
>Proceed to help Lassie gie birth
>Later on sneak around and poison your neighbor's well.

I always laugh when I read "black corn." Even skaven CORN is evil.

are there cases of agriculture outside the Blighted Marshes? Are are they just stealing together what they can find?

We know they cultivate mold, since they brew using it and presumably feed their subterranean livestock with it.

So with magic n shit, are high & dark magic meant to be way stronger than any of the 8 base lores?

Are they stronger than any of the 8 base lores in tabletop?

Fish. Cave monsters.

Hell, press a mushroom to a rocky cave floor and there's even odds it'll explode, turn into a horrible monster or gnaw at the slate floor as it grows unnaturally if you apply warpstone.

Warpstone mutates, Skaven are crazy enough to develop a career based on directing these mutations towards a desired end result more efficiently.

>So with magic n shit, are high & dark magic meant to be way stronger than any of the 8 base lores?

Yes.

High Magic is ALL THE LORES used in perfect symphony, to the point where they appear to be one all-encompassing wind of magic. It can do essentially anything at much higher output that any of the collegiate lores can achieve. Dark Magic is, again, ALL THE LORES, working in disharmony. It's the most powerful, which is specifically what draws peeps like druchii to it, but it's also far more unstable.

>Are they stronger than any of the 8 base lores in tabletop?

In every edition but 8th, High Magic and Dark Magic were unquesionably far better than any of the collegiate lores. Even in 8th they're up there with the best, only Shadow and Death really contending with them.

Ind soon

so are the chinese.
Turns out, innovation is directly proportional to the amount of shekelss and academic freedom you can thow at a target.

What about Lizardmen magic? Wouldn't the Slaan have the most powerful magic?

You mean High Magic?

Slann use High Magic, same as the elves.

Not quite the same in 8th ed where they have a different Lore Attribute. Shield of Saphery vs Contemplations.

Warhammer has a great, slightly over the top aesthetic that nothing else quite captures.

To add on to that, I feel like the reason the over-the-top aesthetic works is because the setting does a good job of making it feel right or even necessary. There's a lot of superstition and such that creates an in-universe need for a bunch of bangles and other bits, and usually none of it is so grossly unfitting that it feels like it tries too hard.

...

Rolled 3, 4 + 2 = 9 (2d10 + 2)

Let me check something real quick.

Exactly what you think he meant.

Real quick, what's the closest you could come to a mech in this setting?

I'm thinking Wizard of the Lore of Metal with a fascination with Dwarvish mechanics and a pet project consisting of a suit of armor larger than himself that he "pilots"

Dwarfs have colossi which are rather runic magic powered.

They are not exactly known for innovation, more for siphoning tech and knowledge from western companies that have to partner up with a chinese company to operate in China. Former expat here. Spent 6 years in Shanghai and 2 in Beijing. When I started out, I thought it was all racism and bigotry towards the Chinese. Turns out there's a lot of truth to it. Not saying nothing good or new never comes from China, just that their reputation for thievery/corporate espionage is well-earned.

Did GW ever give an explanation for why they never brought in anything from Cathay, Nippon, or the Kingdoms of Ind?

Do they actually pilot the things, or do they just slap on the rune for "KILL" and let the things loose?

>meanwhile in total war warhammer Mannfred goes around screaming how Nagash was weak

They really did no background check on his personality for the game did they?

More likely automated.

They probably install a grudge scanner in them.

Its 8e bald nihilistic Mannfred, in Liber Necris he had hair and beard.

At least the skaven stay out of sight.

Characterization marches on. 8e Mannlet was a screaming manchild, but back in the day he was supposed to be a brilliant scholar and statesman, like his father-in-darkness.

Probably because they didn't feel the need for it.
As for anything official. I've no idea.

My bet is something Chaos Dwarfy.

Did they not think the introduction of new armies wouldn't give them the profit increase they were looking for with Endtimes and AoS?

You're supposing that people would actually buy such armies which I'm personally rather sceptic about, beyond the odd mini. They would ideally also have to flesh out their setting quite a bit to make that happen.
All in all, if they thought that was a viable strategy they would probably have tried it.

My players want to play an evil campaign in WFRP. What adventures are there to be had besides "lol let's go kill the emperor praise chayozz"?

Absurd Saga-style manliness quests that all the Frejyas will frig themselves to in Norsca.

Could he beat Archaon?

Yes

Skaven assassin teams sent out to take out various targets/warmachines

Norscan raider group tries to plunder settra again on rumors of endless gold.

Chaos group of cultist need to replace some sigmarites belonging with a cursed one to influence him. Group then has to play to his vices and establish a foothold.

Vampire lacky's/necromancer in training wants to go to cairnstones in welf woods.

Beastmen are tough to do anythong other then rip and tear game.

Same with O&G.

Are tomb kangz considered evil really?

The rest really is just copy paste shit. It all depends what your doing and willing to flesh out.

Well yeah user, he's the best.

But will Archaon see his ball sack?

youtube.com/watch?v=phpMYkFodkE
Even elven statues are lewd.

Grey seer are any shade of white, including grey.

albino guards are not white, they're literally albinos, and may or may not be manifactured

Don't forget Life.

The flavors of high magic are:

Slann: more versatile
HE: short term defensive
WE: long term defensive

That's Lileath for you.

...

I thought Lileath barely did anything with the High Elves.

What was his end goal?