i have been playing 3.5/ pathfinder for years and it has worked for me but i want to try something different. i keep seeing people say AD&D is better but i never see any real arguments in favor of it. i also knew a guy that said gurps is better then all of D&.
what version do you prefer?
Other urls found in this thread:
Far less character build bullshit, min-maxing math, etc...
I've only played 2e, but my two cents:
>smaller numbers (bonus inflation is present, but comparably restrained)
>uneven, slower progression (the window of martial/caster equality is larger too)
>THAC0 keeps combat at a reasonable level (fewer pluses, non-ascending AC) while retaining a sensible formulae
>caster dominance is earned, thanks to much slower progression and greater fragility
>kits are like prestige classes but not; shaky balance but a great deal of variety (without getting into absurd niches like hulking hurler)
>excellent balance of 'gritty' and 'heroic' elements (you're powerful but threats are more palpable)
>staggering variety of unique, optional features (weapon speeds, knockdown values, etc.) lends a great deal of accessible house rulings
>among the greatest published settings and modules available, if you're into that
AD&D doesn't work well outsode of traditional dungeon crawling (which, judging by your question, you're not familair with), but d20 System doesn't work well in general.
Ask /5eg/, /osrg/, and /pfg/ for sales pitches.
>>caster dominance is earned, thanks to much slower progression and greater fragility
Wizards level faster then Fighters past low level. A Wizard hits level 9 at 135,000 XP and a fighter needs 250,000, or about 1.9 times as much XP. It's 300,000 XP for a ranger to hit level 9.
2nd edition is absoloutly caster edition, it just takes a rethink.
If you have a fighter on the front line you need someone with healing magic. That's half your goddamn party in a 4 man band used up for front line and front line support.
So fuck that. Replace the fighter with disposable summons and mind controlled thralls. The cleric becomes optional and any healing is secondary to other spells they want to cast.
This also changes the pace. Instead of saving spells you alpha as hard as you fucking can, BTFO two encounters a day then knock off for beer and spell slot recovery. You blaze though dungeons fast and level faster once you get rolling with a four spell caster kill team.
My personal reasons for moving from PF to AD&D 1e were:
- Classes were a lot more of what I wanted them to be. I remember druid especially being described in the book just as how I had wished it was after playing PF.
- Building characters was much easier.
- The rule books are hundreds of pages shorter, but felt to me like they held much more useful information.
- I really didn't like the idea of feats at all.
- I didn't like damaging cantrips either.
- I liked the idea of players being able to make a stronghold and retire a character, but that being beneficial depends on how you play.
- Different titles at different levels will always be fun to me.
- Running the game was much less complex for me. But I do have a bit of a rules lawyer in my regular group, so take that as you will.
- AD&D supported a style of game I was looking for, where death is more common and there are less rules and more of a focus on rulings.
That being said, my favorite D&D is OD&D, and I currently run an ultra rules-light homebrew. Pathfinder was my first RPG, but playing it really wasn't satisfying for me, so my opinions might align with yours much at all.
The enemy wins initiative and shoots your wizards before they can summon meatshields, the spell fizzes, you die.
The Wilderness Guide helped, and we had many happy hours "outside of the dungeon". Do you have any specific gripes?
So, Chesterton's Fence.
We all know OD&D/AD&D is basically houserules made official, because the house where the rules was invented was Gygax's.
I can clearly see the Secret Door/Hidden Door being just a "roll the dice* and get me a 1 or 2" said when the situation appeared. This led to plenty of subsystems. Good because a DM can modify each of them without making a domino effect. Bad because a unified resolution mechanic is easier to learn and handle. WotC didn't saw that 1-in-6 to 2-in-6 is 13,5% more, almost a +3 bonus in a d20 (while the WotC races got a +2 to the relevant skill) (funilly enough, 5e Advantage system looks closer to OD&D this way).
*The dice being the d6, the most common one.
Did WotC really invested in researching WHY some subsystem existed, instead of just changing all to d20 without a thinking?
We know they didn't thought about the different XP tables. At 5000XP, a Rogue was level 3, with 3d6 HP and his x2 Sneak Attack. The Wizard, however, just arrived at level 2, with whooping 2d4 HP and his second (first level) spell per day. This clearly show that they knew about the LFQW and tried to fix it (if they did it right or wrong is a subject of other topic).
I mean, if WotC Wizars only got to 6th level spells at level 20, since they would have the same XP as the level 20 Fighter, maybe that would be more balanced.
And what the heck they ditched the Divine Spheres. That led to CoDzila.
>Did WotC really invested in researching WHY some subsystem existed, instead of just changing all to d20 without a thinking?
No.
>2nd edition is absoloutly caster edition, it just takes a rethink.
Yeah, if you run campaigns like Ed 'Enter my Mary Sue Magical Realm' Greenwood.
Forgotten Realms, elmimster, drizzt... all that completely rediculous shit is geared towards casters. I fucking hate Eddy G, he's a douche in real life too.
What you need to do is fucking use a bit of verisimilitude in your games.
>muh caster supremacy
USE THE FUCKING SPELL COMPONENT RULES! it sucks when the wizard needs to crush a 5,000gp diamond to cast 1 fucking spell....
2e it's easy as fuck to have charmed and summoned fodder up before you enter combat, and a one hit kill on 4 wizards is absurdly unlikely. If you are SUPER SCARED of that, just abuse the fact that Magic Missile is faster then any weapon to tear down anyone that wants to try to interrupt you.
Spell components aren't that expensive. The worst is if someone wants to run a necro and needs expensive components for undead minions, but even there it's not that much cash.
It's easier to play a different game then to take magic user supremacy out of AD&D.
d20 System was made for the Fallout IP.
The rebranded and tweaked it when they got the opportunity to buy out TSR, but it was never meant to resemble earlier D&D.
youtube.com
Drizzt was Salvatore, and he's sorry.
1) WotC never had a Fallout license and wasn't making any RPG in 1997. Fallout at the time was one moderately successful RPG, Fallout 2 wouldn't be released for a year and nobody thought much of the IP at the time.
2) D&D 3rd edition was in development for 3 years following the TSR buyout in 1997, D20 was released in 2000.
3) D20 was the brainchild of a D&D brand manager at WotC that wanted to attract people to building content for D&D. The whole thing was always intended to be a D&D thing.
You retard? Fallout was meant to be GURPS, everyone knows that.
>AD&D doesn't work well outsode of traditional dungeon crawling
That's bullshit. Just because it doesn't have scores for all kinds of social and other non-combat situations doesn't mean it doesn't work well. It just means you have to roleplay the out-of-combat stuff rather than rollplay it like in 3e and on.
4e was a step in the right direction when it came to reducing the amount of non-combat rules but it still stuck to retarded conventions in having explicit Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate scores.
If they removed Diplomacy/Bluff, the 3rries would have convulsions. They already hate 4e and call it a boardgame, if they see that you can roleplay without rollplay they would go mad.
I have a soft spot for D&D Basic personally, the Rulescyclopedia is all you really need for it.
Outside that our group plays D&D 5e for our Dungeons ad Dragons games.
Otherwise we all run our own custom homebrew systems tailored specifically to our settings.
this right fucking here... its a role playing game, not a fucking PnP version of a console game.
Also:
AD&D 2e is GOAT edition
> 2e
> Not playing OD&D with Chainmail rules
It's like you don't even grog
>2nd edition is absoloutly caster edition
You're fucking retarded. No cantrips, no automatic spell acquisition unless you're a specialist, and expensive spell components make it decidedly NOT caster edition unless the DM is letting you find spellbooks under every rock.
>Spell components aren't that expensive
Yes they are at higher levels.
Even the 1st level Identify spell, which is really good if you need to identify if an item is cursed or just getting the exact spell effect, costs at least 160 gold to cast, and you can only identify 1 item per class level.
>That being said, my favorite D&D is OD&D, and I currently run an ultra rules-light homebrew.
What's it like being a virgin?
>Yes they are at higher levels.
>Even the 1st level Identify spell, which is really good if you need to identify if an item is cursed or just getting the exact spell effect, costs at least 160 gold to cast, and you can only identify 1 item per class level.
Actually, its 1 magical property at a time.
For example, a Sword +1, +2 vs. Avian Creatures takes 2 separate Identify spells to fully realize its power.
>Spell components aren't that expensive
Tell that to the person that needs 1000gp for the vial of mercury to cast Tenser's Floating Disc.
Right, it's 100g per property to identify. Man, that's a huge amount right?
Except you never cast that at low level because you aren't going to have any magic items anyway. By the time you need to identify shit you have enough gold that it dosnt' matter anyway.
It's a nice spell but you aren't going to need to cast it. You'd have a point if every spell cost 100 X Spell Level to cast, but when most spells are free then spell components aren't going to serve to keep AD&D from being caster edition.
I guess without spells that need money I'll just have to go for free spells like..
Magic Missile
Shield
Charm Person (and it last weeks on most targets)
Sleep
Invisbility
Fireball
Charm Monster
Clouadkill
All this and leveling faster then a fighter.
Ignore
My girlfriend was first introduced to 3.5 D&D years ago and hated it. When we started dating, I introduced her to OD&D and she was hooked. OSR is the only reason she's into role-playing now.
It works outside of traditional dungeon crawling, but ti doesn't work well.
Unless d20 System is your meter stick, in which case: Yes, working at all is a step up.
Firstly, AD&D it's not full of
"WHATEVER-YOU-WANT-TO-DO-ROLL-A-D20" ...
There's skill checks, ability checks and all, but it's not like you have to roll a dice EVERY-DAMN-TIME you want to do even the minimal action, like just taking a look around you.
Secondly, it doesn't have WoW-tier impossible mix of classes and races. Like pic related, or fucking dwarven mages.
Now then, 2e was actually kind of lame to remove stuff like half-orcs PCs and monks, but you can still take look at them from 1e, and adapt them to 2e, it's not hard at all.
Finally, the difference in experience level between characters... Either you hate it because you don't understand it, or you love it because you totally agree with Gygax's vision at how adventurers relate to each other. There's also A LOT of classes that are absolutely useless in combat at the lower levels, even against mere Kobolds. But those character are all about RPing, and their strongest point is using skills outside of combat. Overall, I think old AD&D was more about the ROLEPLAYING itself rather than fighting the monsters (also about the monsters, forget about CR shit, because there's nothing like that at all, both stat-wise and RPing-wise--if your DM is a cunning SOB, even being above level 10 and going against a group of Kobolds would give you a hard time), so they would be the best for P&P, while from 3.5 and on it's the best for D&D-based games, since it's all about creating the perfect combat machine that kill everything in the less time possible, and gets powerful and epic in no-time.
>Now then, 2e was actually kind of lame to remove stuff like half-orcs PCs and monks
Both of these things are in AD&D2e, half-orcs are in the Complete Book of Humanoids, monks in the Forgotten Realms faiths and avatars book (and probably in other books that I don't own).
Only once in my life we tried to get past level 9-10 with my group in 2e. We got full into henchmen galore for the first time. And the last time, too. It was way too time-spending, it was like the very picture of hell. Not to mention the XP sharing between 20+ people. Soon slaying a very powerful foe wasn't so appealing anymore, if all you got in the end was just a single 1k of exp or something like that.
You just sound like you suck at AD&D.
>Kobolds can be dangerous at level 10
Bullshit. Detect Traps and they can't do shit. Charmed fodder to sweep for traps and they can't do shit.
>Some classes are useless in combat.
Yes, we call them thieves. It's a class for whoever drew the short straw to run 4 levels in before bailing into Magic User/Wizard and getting to play a real character, if you don't want to just use a few spells and a little creatviity to do everything a thief can do.
If you are really worried about early game livability then run Fighter to level 5 then bail into Wizard. This puts you 16k behind XP wise, so less then a level after a short time playing catch up.
Is she fat?
>fucking dwarven mages.
The fuck is wrong with dwarven mages? The problem is the introduction of tieflings and drow and similar shit as core races, not dwarf mages. Faggot.
> Is she fat?
Amazingly, no! She is a german import, though, so there's a fucking timebomb in the relationship. I have about a year left before her student visa expires and I either need to marry her or she has to go home.
I wouldn't know, since the reason I made such a rules light system was so sessions could be more social and actually enjoyed by my less nerdy friends and girlfriend.
I prefer gurps.
Grab dungeon fantasy rpg for your core rules, and add in sorcery and the pyramid article to use sorcery instead of magic in df, use the eggplant blog for a good variety of pre-made Sorcery spells, and add martial arts for more interesting combat.
Then use powers to build any additional supernatural powers you may want.
Low tech and fantasy could be useful for extra equipment or example racial/profession templates.
You can of course also grab the dungeon fantasy supplements.
Plus iirc spells fail if you take any damage.
No concentration check, just gone
Oh yeah, that's a huge danger. Unless you use spells faster then any attack you are going to face. Are there any absurdly good spells that fast cast before someone could interrupt them? Like Magic Missile?
1e AD&D is still my favorite edition of D&D, with 5e as a second.
If you want to get into AD&D i recommend reading some kind of OSR primer just to get in the right headspace.
>dragging normies and roasties into the hobby with simple yet shitty rules
OSR was a mistake.
I don't see what's so wrong about trying to allow a wider range of people enjoy all the fun RPGs provide. Most people aren't going to be interested in playing a game with a 600 page core rulebook like PFs. If playing a simple system is what gets them interested in the hobby, what harm does it do? Besides, these games don't affect your own sessions in any way.
I hope that works out for you, buddy!
If you're just allowed to pick whatever spells you want, sure you'll be able to pad your abilities, but that's not always a given
Don't bite on bait, dude
>dwarven mages
The dwarves of yadda yadda yadda
>OSR primer
That's what OSR pretty much is. I play 1.5 edition
>there's no such thing
There really is. Oriental Adventures, Wilderness Survival Guide & Dungeoneers Survival Guide introduced better specialty attacks and proficiencies, both weapon and non-weapon.
Those 3 books, on top of AD&D's ruleset leads you directly to 2e. 2nd started out great, but it jumped the railed mid 90ies or so and that led to 3e and beyond, which are all varying levels of faggotry
Even with worst case spell access via only specialist level up bonuses and starting spells you can still do fine. A team of four specialist wizards can cover every spell they are ever going to need.
Denying that spell list would be really hard without killing the setting by never using any NPC spell-casters. It's not just a list of spells that are really too good for the game, it's also spells that are the most common.
>Most people aren't going to be interested in playing a game with a 600 page core rulebook like PFs.
Nice false dichotomy strawman.
>Besides, these games don't affect your own sessions in any way.
Not an argument. Little children being shot in Africa doesn't affect me in any way either. Doesn't mean it should happen.
>I don't see what's so wrong about trying to allow a wider range of people enjoy all the fun RPGs provide.
Yeah and now we have loads of stupid fucking hipster roasties who are only playing because they saw it on Netflix. The kind of person who watches a lot of Netflix shows is the kind of person who does not have creativity. And now the rules of D&D and many other RPGs have been dumbed down in order to be easier for these roastie counts and the chads they drag with them. The most complex thing most of the cunts know how to do is apply an Instagram filter. They can't even figure out which d8 is which and they either suck add at role-playing , use exaggerated stereotypes from movies they've seen, or else don't role play at all, and make everyone at the table cringe. They can fuck off. Just hand out deodorant to the people who actually care about the game, an cares if they're fat or white? At least they are actually passionate about the game which should be what matters, but you want a bunch of pretty new people cause you're a shallow cunt. Just like flooding Europe with muzzies immigrants. It's a fucking bad idea.
Most people that play D&D have always been useless retards. It's not like a new wave of useless retards will hurt anything. It's pissing in an ocean of piss.
I mean, if D&D can survive fucking moronic shitbirds like then it's hardly going to die because a few people saw Stranger Things and wanted to play what they were playing.
>Nice false dichotomy strawman.
Yeah, I probably wasn't thoughtful enough in how I laid out my opinion. I was only referring to PF vs AD&D, and I should have instead said that in my experience the people I introduce to the idea of RPGs have been disinterested with the idea of a game that uses a book as large as the PF core rulebook. Sorry for generalizing with that assumption. I only meant that some of the crunchier games can be daunting to someone without any experience with RPGs.
>not an argument. Little children being shot in Africa doesn't affect me in any way either. Doesn't mean it should happen.
I disagree on the comparison here. People having fun in a way different than you like to have fun, in my opinion, doesn't bring harm to anyone.
As for your last point, I'll say I personally don't know any hipsters playing D&D because they saw it on Stranger Things or whatever. Pretty much everyone in my group comes from a religious background and didn't know games like D&D even existed. But everyone I've brought into my game has been actively trying to challenge their creativity and make meaningful characters. I don't think all new additions to the hobby are bad.
However, I've definitely seen what you're talking about online. I've seen a few groups of people streaming D&D who act like you've described, as well as the whole "natural 20!" meme. We're certainly in agreement that that type of what I would call shallow playing is not how we see the potential of the hobby. Neither of us probably want these people in our groups.
But I personally wouldn't say that I don't want them to play the game. If they're having fun, then good for them. I feel that if someone is truly passionate about roleplaying games, they wouldn't get caught up in that shallow approach. But, if all someone is looking for is a simple game to tell a story with friends, I don't see anything wrong with them glossing over things like character depth or using the right dice.
Bump of the best edition (AD&D, black border books).
>People having fun in a way different than you like to have fun, in my opinion, doesn't bring harm to anyone.
It does when companies start pandering to them with shitty dumbed down products.
I'm sorry that the kind of game you want supported doesn't appear to be what companies think the majority of potential customers want. Or maybe it's that they don't actually want to make those kinds of games anymore in the first place. I think it's hard to say what a company's exact intentions are when it's as big as WotC.
If you want to keep playing an edition of the game that works how you want it to, every edition of D&D has thousands of players just on Roll20. Based on their 2016 Q4 report, no edition of the game has died out due the majority of their D&D players choosing the current edition. So I would think there would be plenty of offline groups playing those games as well, especially for older editions that players might prefer to play with pen and paper.
>especially for older editions that players might prefer to play with pen and paper.
I have to say that with the grognard set this is especially true.
I fit the age group for the grognard, but I dont care to shit all over other games/editions and im surely no gygax purist... all I will say is that 2e AD&D is my overall favorite system, and finding good players never starts on roll20 or any other VTT system... sucks but thats the way it is