Let's say that's Horus tripped over a rock and died or something. Who would have made a better Warmaster? The Lion, Sanguinius, or Guilliman? Try to be honest here and not just base this on who you like.
The options are the Lion, Guilliman, or Sanguinius. I pick Sanguinius.
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I'd like to say Daddy's Little Angel, but probably Bobby G. He's the most down to earth, the other two are too passionate
The Lion would be the obvious pick, he was almost equal in his tactical prowess and was renowned for his wisdom. Guilliman works better as a statesman than warmanster and Sanguinius is charismatic but not a war leader.
Prooobably Gulliman. While Lion and Angel are better fighters than Robert, Robert has a better overall, big picture analytical mind than the other two.
Then again, we see what happens when you put Big Bob in charge. He decides the best wayto keep mankind from dividing is to divide mankind.
Also is that Triple H on the left?
My main issue with the Lion is that he's terrible at personal anything. Warmaster means getting your armies to do what you say and I feel like the Lion would have pissed too many of his brothers off. Sanguinius could have gotten people to work together but he would have brought the other two in for council to make sure the plans were going as needed.
Idk but that picture is fucking jorridnthe more I look at it.
Dem goldy locks on Horus....
KeK
Honestly there is only 2 primarchs that should have been seriously considered for the job, Gulliman and Alpharius/Omegon.
Gulliman is the master of logistics and bureaucracy, which is what builds empires and makes them last. And Alpharius was easily the greatest strategist of the primachs.
The only option would be Ferrus. Everyone else was too involved with politics between each other, or too focused on their niche. Ferrus would have just done the job and got it done.
Side question. Is there any three primarch team up that would rival the power trio of Lion, Sangy, and Bobby G? It seems like the three are all exceptional and where one lacks the other exceeds. Super synergistic team comp yo.
So like powerpuff girls?
I'm okay with this.
That's Sanginius you fucking double traitor
I think Sanguinius is the obvious pick. He's not as tactically gifted as Lion or adept at logistics as Guilliman but he's universally liked by his brothers. An important duty of the warmaster is managing the Primarchs. Lion doesn't really understand proper social interaction and Guilliman alienated a bunch of them with his hall monitor routine. The angel can always just delegate to the others if he needs to but it's not like he's a slouch at the whole Crusade business.
>And Alpharius was easily the greatest strategist of the primachs
>tfw to intelligent to live
For sheer ultraviolence, Khan and Mortarion, oddly enough. Khan more or less says "You know, I'm not sure even Father would have a chance if we were working together."
>Weezing and Gotta Go Fast
Hm
>Also is that Triple H on the left?
That's the Lion my friend
Excluding those 3 entirely, or just not all 3 together?
Ferrus, Russ and Dorn are a pretty powerful combination, despite all of them having meme failures to their names.
Though interpersonal issues would probably be a thing.
Huh, that's pretty cool.
Wonder who would be a good way to round out those two, maybe Vulkan, or someone like Corax to cover their bases a bit?
The fanart potential is limitless
Angron, Horus and Fulgrim.
Horus and Fulgrim sure, but why Angron for a power trio? - the thing about Sang/Lion/Bobby is that they're all quite well rounded with a specialty, Angron is anything but
Perturabo, no hear me out:
1) He's good at planning and logistics.
2) Excellent strategic mind, moderate tactical ability.
3) Organizational skills, limited ego for a primarch.
Really this is what you want in a Warmaster. A tactical genius will want to get into it and let's face it, we have enough of those and that isn't a Warmaster's job. He;s got to move the big stuff and let the local commanders deal with the small details.
Let's look at something more important:
Why is Lion El'Jonson's hair and beard combination so similar to Hollywood Hogan's hair and beard? Now I acknowledge there are differences, Lion doesn't have a blonde moustache and Hogan wears a bandanna, but I cannot think of anyone else with blonde straight hair and a jet black beard.
Firstly, why has Lion chosen to dye either his hair? Does it carry some meaning on Caliban? If so, could the culture of Caliban be heavily based on the 90s?
More importantly, could this be a hint towards Lion's fall, in the same way that Hollywood Hogan betrayed the Hulkamaniacs to join his wayward friends and form the NWO?
Or does this tell us something far greater and more fundamental to both 40K and professional wrestling? I think it does.
He's lacking one of the things that are really important for a Warmaster: People skills. Even in-universe, it was acknowledged that half of the Warmaster's job was being able to butter up the other Primarchs, which is one of the reasons why people with excellent military skills but sticks up their arses like Dorn, Guilliman and the Lion were passed over.
Corax was a better general than all three of them.
Just sayin'
Couple of problems there, biggest being trust issues - Pert has actual paranoia, to the point he doesn't have a bodyguard unit, he built automata for that, and he uses spare ones to watch over his captains. He'd spend his tenure as warmaster fearing the others were going to overthrow him.
He also has a very, very blunt personality, some anger issues, and he's very tactically inflexible - to the point that Horus bemoans it when he's discussing his generals.
But can he demand their obedience and make it stick if he has to?
The Lion isn't diplomatic enough, RG just isn't respected enough - his brothers respect his capabilities but not all of them respect him.
Ferrus is too likely to have just dine shit n his own when his brothers didn't want to go along.
Vulcan, Fulgrim, Russ - maybe?
Horus was the best choice in a bunch of ways.
The one thing all the Primarchs tend to agree on is that they like the Angel and would be willing to help him.
Sure - but when he has to ask someone to do something that they really do not want to do can he demand it of them and make them do it?
Meme.
Lion was the best tactician of them all, all of his brothers agree.
>Alpharius was easily the greatest strategist of the primachs.
>Got out strategist by Dorn.
Guilliman is the only non-meme answer.
Let's take a look at it by legion.
>Lion
Great tactician, no doubt about it. He was a clever dude and a good fighter, so he'd be respected and him being chosen wouldn't be a WTF move. His flaw is his poor social skills/isolationism. As has already been said, the Warmaster needs to be liked as well as respected by his fellow Primarchs. He could easily redo the whole Luther thing on another Primarch. A top five pick still.
>Fulgrim
A very good choice, in all honesty. While some people thought he was an ass, he was also the only guy who was close to Ferrus and Konrad, so he wasn't bad at working with initial hostility. He was also a brilliant tactician and fighter, even if somewhat OCD, making him respected and competent in addition to likeable. Shortlisted for sure.
>Perturabo
A poor choice, though he would make a great second in command for a lot of reasons. While a very clever tactician and skilled in many other fields, low social skills and paranoia fuck him over. He's the kind of guy who'd get worried a loyal legion is going traitor but can't prove it so he keeps giving them the worst assignments until they go traitor. Ironic.
>Jaghatai
A left field choice. It wasn't so much his brothers didn't like him, they just didn't know him. Kinda like the Lion there, but actually good at explaining himself when he does talk. First Primarch so far who had strong feelings on the whole 'psyker' thing, which could rustle other Primarch's jimmies. Not much to say about him, he'd be a bit of a dark horse but I doubt he's as good a choice as others.
>Russ
A mixed bag. Russ was a good guy at heart, despite his eccentricities and prejudices, but he was also pretty temperamental, quick to judge and a good few other Primarchs disliked his whole barbarian thing. In addition, his opinions on psychic powers would certainly split the legions. One of the best fighters. Too headstrong and a bit too much of a individual for the role though. Ultimately, not a candidate.
1/?
>Dorn
While certainly someone everyone seemed to at least respect, bar Pert, a lot of things go against Dorn. His poor social skills, his dislike of psychic powers, occasional antagonism to his brothers (ask Curze) all play against him. Also, his defensive style of battle wouldn't be the best for the force that is meant to be the head of the Crusade. Great Praetorian though.
>Curze
This is how you get the Minotaurs in 30k. Jokes aside, if Curze was sane and the role of the Warmaster was more overseer of the legions then leader of the crusade, he'd be a good choice. But he ain't, it isn't and he's a bad one.
>Sanguinius
Top tier, in nearly every respect. Great warrior, good tactician, admired by everyone. One of the few who'd share the burden with other Primarchs and probably appoint a second in command to patch up the few areas he's bad at. Only issue is that he is a mutant and the Red Thirst would like pretty bad if revealed.
>Ferrus
Like the Khan, bit of a dark horse. Not a great communicator, see how he never got round to telling his legion that the flesh is strong, but not Dorn or Lion tier. A bit of a hard ass to work with, with little sympathy for civilians or rebuilding. A good warrior but not the best. All in all, a very average choice.
>Angron
As funny as it is, no.
>Gulliman
Probably the most common second choice. A good bureaucrat, which is a skill few others really had, an equally good strategists and a very capable fighters. A bit straight laced (and if Imperiu Secendus is proof, power hungry) but not crap socially.
>Mortarion
Not really his role. Very good on the battlefield, uncompromising off it but very much an ass. Most Primarchs would dislike him for one reason or another and he'd just make it worse by being so damn stubborn. Would make a good enforcer or second in command though.
2/?
>Magnus
I don't think he'd even want it, only Primarch who might say no. Most of his brothers thought he was arrogant, his view on psykers would trigger a lot of them, and he wouldn't do anything to stop it.
>Lorgar
Unless he stopped the whole religion thing, no.
>Vulkan
A surprisingly good choice. Liked by most everyone, actually thinks about others, has hobbies outside of killing. Has been called the most physically powerful Primarch, so his martial ability won't come into question. Would go out of his way to deal with his errant brothers, especially those who fucked with baseline humans. Pretty good overall.
>Corax
He doesn't really excel enough in any area to be a contender. Vulkan's nicer, Konrad's sneakier, Magnus likes psykers more, etc.
>Alpharius
With his ego? He'd sabotage everyone else's efforts as often as possible just so he could swoop in and prove he's better.
As such, the top five would be Gulliman, the Lion, Sanguinius, Vulkan and Fulgrim.
Wasn't one of the main reason emps didn't pick guilliman because he bullied too many primarchs
Guilliman didn't bully anyone.
Even Horus thought Sanguinius deserved the title more so obviously it would be him.
That assumes that Horus is right.
If he's right enough to be warmaster...
That assumes that the Emperor was right in choosing Horus.
If the Emperor was indeed right in choosing Horus then Horus was wrong.
If the Emperor was wrong then Horus is no good judge.
Usually whenever someone's criticising one of the other primarchs it's him
on the side of chaos, I'd make an argument for Horus, Magnus and Alpharius/Omegon. You get brilliant charisma and strategy from Horus, psychic insight/divination and a walking library from Magnus (also iirc he could literally tear a warlord titan in half with his mind which is a nice bonus) and the Alpha twins would be excellent at espionage while also providing alternate views for Horus' strategy.
That's not bullying, and he never does it without cause.
He was one of many who criticized Alpharius for wasteful tactics.
He criticized Pert for decimation of his own Legion.
He criticized Horus for being a yahoo and leaving him to pick up his pieces for him.
How can fulgrim even compete?
It's more like Mortarion is nigh-invulnerable, and Khan is insanely fast. They're polar opposites, which is why they work so well together.
I don't really get how calling Lorgar a manchild is constructive criticism though
He would never call him a manchild publicly until after his betrayal. He even let Lorgar strike him and didn't hit back. Guilliman is a saint.
Imperium universe order 4 lyf?
Not his fault they couldn't handle the banter.
Daemon Fulgrim vs. Sanguinius would be a pretty cool fight. Sangy is overwhelmingly powerful, but Fulgrim's the most successful duellist of all the Primarchs and a sneaky fucker to boot.
Initiate the Rite of II Dulcis, brother.
Basically this. Being a warmaster is being a leader. As a leader you can delegate tactical decisions to others. Sanguinius could have kept his brothers united and made sure no-one carried grudges that allowed them to fall to chaos.
>Sanguinius rekt a Titan
>Fulgrim got rekt by a Knight
I heavily agree.
Being a warmaster is not solely tactician and winning the battle. You have to make sure your army can work well enough together and have a feel for the people you're commanding. Good plans and battle strategies mean fuck all if your army won't do what you tell them to do. Sanguinius would be able to get everyone to at least work together as a cohesive unit and would have equally brought in his brothers to discuss battle tactics.
>sanguinius got butt raped by a bloodthirster
>fulgrim put Bobby G into a coma
Counterpoint:
>Sanguinius has a neck
>Fulgrim is really good at stabbing necks
Horus couldn't do that either. The Emperor couldn't for that matter.
He was proving a point, it was all just as planned
Hogan did form New World Order? Did I miss something?
Fulgrim's one weakness.
his main problem is g takes the martyr role too far, hes expected to do the hard jobs...not make them harder on purpose.
He forgot someone who is famously honourable would be unreceptive to a ruse cloaked in misdirection.
For all his feted 'tactical genius', alpharius is pretty useless, all told.
Guilliman had something called the "Dauntless Few" which was composed of Rogal, Sanguinius, Russ, and Ferrus. He thought that he could win literally any war if all five them worked together.
By the power of autism, I would think angy, pert, and Konrad would rival them.
Do people forget that Dorn actually was considered before he turned it down?
Its even in Horus Rising. Dorn explicitly states he was considered but did not want warmaster
Angron is one of the best fighters out of the primarchs, sure he isn't a leader nor can he think of strats beyond "LETS CHARGE THEM!"; but Horus and fulgrim more than make up for it.
That's not saying though that straight up charging is a bad idea, sure it results in high casualties and whatnot, but no one really expects it to work as well as it does combined with the nails.
>Is there any three primarch team up that would rival the power trio of Lion, Sangy, and Bobby G?
Magnus and two hand mirrors.
Yeah, that's true, and I think it's really under-valued how much Angron does, even if he does generally use 'dumb' tactics.
Still, I think there's less difficult and more versatile primarchs who could fulfil a similar role - Ferrus was pretty direct and was Fulgrim's bff, there's Russ or Khan - maybe Mortarion or Vulkan if you're okay swapping aggression for endurance and strength
>Perturabo for warmaster
>the guy that almost got himself killed by some nobody Imperial Fist captain
Iron Whiners are the worst.
Dorn
Magnus, Lorgar and Horus.
Magnus to kill everyone, Lorgar to talk Magnus out of doing stupid shit, and Horus to talk Lorgar out of doing stupid shit.
hmm
Even got the right colours (post-heresy, at least)
Anyone wanna tell me what book this was said in? I want to read it.
Scars. Its pretty shit. Only good parts are the ones with Bjorn
Magnus, Khan, Vulkan.
Very mildmannered team but were very effective when roused.
Oh lawd that is one nightmare of a dream team.
>sangy with that hair
how? why? what?
Perturabo.
They've been doing it for a while now; Unremembered Empire onwards. It looks hideous.