High Level Counterspell

>The space would fill itself with several times less pointless content.
/qst/ is almost a year old and the only thing that has filled the place of quests is daily D&D bait threads and /pol/ shit.

I'd rather have decent OC like we did back when storytime threads weren't considered cringe and quests were left to do their own thing but I'd rather have a "pointless" thread than a blatant bait thread that gets bumped up to 348 posts before getting 404'd.

There's an entire scene in Hollow Ataraxia where Bazett must fight lancer, and this exact scenario happens and they end up killing each other

Lancer uses Gae Bolg, Bazett counters with Fragarach, rips a huge hole in Lancers chest, but then Gae Bolg is also activated and kills Bazett as well

youtu.be/5pFwBq0DDes

By the nature of how fragarach works, that shouldn't happen.

Like i said, fragarach is meant to stop the activation of a trump card by killing its user. If fragarach didn't do that, it means it failed, and bazett should get a refund on her magic ball thing.

Yes, but Gae Bolg also reverses casualty
Once Gáe Bolg's name has been called, the cursed spear reverses the nature of causality, the meaning of "cause and effect" in the order of things, to make it so the cause of the "lance being thrust" comes from the effect of the "opponent's heart being pierced" by it.

So we have two effects of casualty happening at the same time

It's also worth noting that due to lancers battle continuation he won't immediately die from a fatal strike to the heart

Both hit.
Confirmed in fighting game.

Remember that time loop is basically a form of fucking up with casualty. Which is also what gae blog is doing.

Gae blog reverses cause and effect, while fragarach uses extra step to do it(time manipulation).

Also lancers best servants.

Man I love that game too
Fragarach was so satisfying to use
youtube.com/watch?v=h0CzD8BjYN8

you can reverse causality all you wish, but fragarach voids the entirety of the action involved. It makes it literally impossible for the action itself to have been taken. No matter how badly causality is reversed, cause still needs to happen at some point for there to be an effect.

It literally loops time back to before gae bolg is even invoked, essentially creating a new timeline in which gae bolg did not activate at all. Fragarach voids any actions taken by the opposing user in this way.

On top of this, she actually needs to get hit for this to happen, which should theoretically "Use up" gae bolg, much like with saber in the original stay night.

There is no reason whatsoever that gae bolg should have continued after fragarach went off. No amount of reversing cause and effect gets around voiding the action entirely, especially since the action already managed to "Work".

Every bit of fragarach is keyed to counter something like gae bolg. The only reason both hit is that nasu is a hack that can't get shit right even in his own canon

Bazette in GO when.

You realize that for the sake of balance, games will often misconstrue the effects of abilities right?

For example, despite getting hit with gae bolg/fragarach TWICE both bazett and lancer survive it.

Fighting games especially are at fault for this.

Did you mean to link this instead of ?

I meant to link all three actually, since the other guy was talking about GO.

Still, my point stands that games won't ever live up to the actual standards of the abilities. For that matter, lancer got enuma elished and survived it.

Let me repeat, he survived a literal reality splitting weapon to the face.

But wouldn't battle continuation still be be a relevant point in that question though since he can survive a fatal strike to the heart unlike some other characters like Saber who will fade away as soon as she takes a fatal strike to the heart?

The reason Bazett didn't kill lancer outright is because she "Swung wide due to gae bolg"

Thats the only given reason he didn't die outright from fragarach, battle continuation be damned.

Lancer isn't herc. He's basically irish hercules, yes, but at the same time he does not have the ability to revive like that. Even if he did, its only with a pittance of health left, and the then fully healthy bazett should just kill him then, because i bet he couldn't muster the energy to shoot off gae bolg with a hole in his chest sapping his strength rapidly.

So assuming nasu's estimation on how this goes is utter horse crap based on his own description of fragarach, Gae bolg shouldn't activate until lancer calls it again, since it would have "Succeeded to hit" and thus stop working, meaning bazett shouldn't have "Swung wide".

All things considered, fragarach is basically gae bolgs worst enemy. Everything points to it being the ultimate trump against gae bolg. But then nasu bitched out on it.

Plus, saber avoided it through, and i quote "Luck and intuition".

If saber can do it with no extra abilities whatsoever, then fragarach sure as fuck should be able to.

>Plus, saber avoided it through, and i quote "Luck and intuition".
That's because she has an obscenely high luck Stat. It is an actual ability she possessed, not "random chance"

After Arcueid :^)

Even with high luck, it still managed to graze her badly. A second gay bulge would have most likely damaged her even more or even killed her.

An obscenely high luck stat does not let you get around a 100% to hit the heart directly. In fact, its pretty bullshit that it didn't just keep going in her chest sideways and pierce her heart then and there.

That isn't the point though. Saber, through literally impossible odds, beat gae bolg by a theoretical critical roll on a d20. Bazette using fragarach is basically ALWAYS rolling that same critical roll on a d20 every time she uses fragarach.

No matter how you spin it, saber got off because nasu's a hack and couldn't kill saber then and there or the story would have ended. But at the same time, it proves the fallability of gae bolg, which in turn should go on to work on something that literally causes the failure of an action to even start.

Basically, if saber can avoid it through luck, bazett should avoid it by sheer mechanics.

>An obscenely high luck stat does not let you get around a 100% to hit the heart directly.

The story tells us, in no uncertain terms, that it does.

Don't think of the Luck stat as being luck in the standard sense. It's more the likelihood of fate itself intervening in your affairs to keep you on the path set out for you. Fate, a mechanic of the world. is a far greater mystery than Gae Bolg or Fragarach, and the level of 'mystery' something has in TM basically decides whether it disregards or counters something else.

Saber's "Luck" is high, but its worth pointing out that her Luck is explicitly supernatural as a result of carrying the Sword of Promised Victory (aka Excalibur). As long as she has it, the dice get fudged in her favor. Maybe not enough to negate everything, but enough to be well beyond anything normally considered mere 'luck'. Its explicitly divine favor.

And fragarach is any different how?

Its the difference between a DM fudging rolls, and the DM not even rolling and saying something succeeds.

Merely explaining how Saber's luck let her survive Gae Bolg in canon.

Don't be so defensive about your fanfiction waifu.

It's funny you say that because that is how Gae Bolg works. The effect is that it hits the heart and it doesn't care about any point before that, Lancer just throws it for style.
>But my time loop...
The weapon skips cause and effect to just bring you the effect, avoiding the cause doesn't stop the effect
>How did Saber dodge then?
She didn't, her high luck made it graze the heart instead of hitting it directly, think of it as rolling a 1 for damage on a guaranteed crit

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d-delete this

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>beat gae bolg by a theoretical critical roll on a d20

I understood that reference!

As already explained, fate is a more powerful mystery than any Noble Phantasm.

They both fudge the rolls, but when it comes down to it, the will of the universe is going to win against Fragarach.

Well the discussion is more about fragarach than it is saber to start with, so its inevitably gonna end up back there.

Gae bolg DOES hit. Rather, it has to for fragarachs anti-phantasm ability to start. It then rewinds time, making the effect as if it didn't happen at all. using your explanation, it'd be like losing temporary health.

Another large issue is that while gae bolg does alter causality, it does it within the scope of fragarachs time altering abilities. Fragarach hits a much wider timeframe on causality than gae bolg does. Gae bolg simple reverses cause and effect. Fragarach reverses time itself to make cause and effect not even happen. Fragarach rewinds the entire thing to before gae bolg itself is used.

No amount of "But it has to hit" negates that fact. In fact, gae bolg still hitting in and of itself becomes an impossibility that the stable time loop fragarach makes should force it not to happen.

In the same way that fragarach can't be used on bazett because it would cause an unstable time loop, gae bolg can't be used if lancer can't activate it. "Lancer couldn't activate gae bolg, but gae bolg still shot" is an impossibility. The cause still has to happen at some point. It doesn't IGNORE the cause. It puts it off. If the cause is not possible, the ability itself becomes unusable. Fragarach would by its nature prevent this from happening as it would render lancer "Incapable".

To be fair, its a really apt description of what happened.

Actually, if fragarach reverses time like that, wouldn't it just make cause and effect happen in the correct order, and then the effect would dissappear?

Man, Cu would be broken as fuck in the Saber class.

Cruaidín Catutchenn, an Excalibur-style holy sword of light type weapon, AND Fragarach? Bazett should have shot for a Saber.

I thought that was Claíomh Solais

He makes a good caster too, and qualified for berserker

Claíomh Solais isn't really one sword, it's a type of sword that reappears again and again in Irish mythology. Cruaidín is Cu's Claíomh Solais.

That said Nasuverse may just simplify it so that they're all just the same weapon called Claíomh Solais.

Thats fair.

Mythical swords are wierd

Most interestingly, something overlooked as far as I know in the Fate series is that Cu Chulainn should have an eldritch horror tier hulk out mode on top of everything else, called the 'Riastrad', 'Warp Spasm' in English.

>The first warp-spasm seized Cúchulainn, and made him into a monstrous thing, hideous and shapeless, unheard of. His shanks and his joints, every knuckle and angle and organ from head to foot, shook like a tree in the flood or a reed in the stream. His body made a furious twist inside his skin, so that his feet and shins switched to the rear and his heels and calves switched to the front... On his head the temple-sinews stretched to the nape of his neck, each mighty, immense, measureless knob as big as the head of a month-old child... he sucked one eye so deep into his head that a wild crane couldn't probe it onto his cheek out of the depths of his skull; the other eye fell out along his cheek. His mouth weirdly distorted: his cheek peeled back from his jaws until the gullet appeared, his lungs and his liver flapped in his mouth and throat, his lower jaw struck the upper a lion-killing blow, and fiery flakes large as a ram's fleece reached his mouth from his throat... The hair of his head twisted like the tangle of a red thornbush stuck in a gap; if a royal apple tree with all its kingly fruit were shaken above him, scarce an apple would reach the ground but each would be spiked on a bristle of his hair as it stood up on his scalp with rage.

They got that now to

I meant too, not to! I swear it

Cu Alter is Medb's literal oc donut steel. Warp spasm Cu is different.

That appears to just be his Alter form, which, honestly, feels like a missed opportunity since it looks nothing like:

> cursed demon super-form

Why is Irish mythology so fucking anime?

Also, you guys are forgetting, Gae Bolg LITERALLY prompts a "Luck Check". It's an obscenely hard one, like "3 exploding 100s on a d100" hard, but it is still a luck check. That is canonically how it works in-setting. It's a luck saving throw against a death effect.

Because, Anime had to get it from somewhere, and by god if the Celts weren't going to just hand that off to the Hindi.

It's not overlooked, he just doesn't have access to it as Lancer. If you want riastrad Cu, you have to summon him as Berserker.

That's just his Alter form, which is him how Medb wants him, for at least thinks she wants him.

Japan is closer to its 'pagan' roots, where magic and supernatural heroism are the order of the day, whereas the modern west very much dropped these concepts as things to be admired or told of when Christianity rolled in. Aime is just more 'mythological' in its approach to fiction. Even the bishie thing is a holdover from these belief structures, where androgyny was often seen as a divine thing.