What's your D&D 5e tierlist?

No mystics. Core rules only. No items, final destination.

Druid is probably somewhere above F.

I spent 10 minutes looking for a Ganon image of this then I decided against making my own.

literally suicide ur character LOL

>TFW you enjoy Bowser and Kirby the most
Pichu is for fags, though.

I picked necromancy and the number of zombies you can get literally destroys the action economy

Why did you rate the warlock's pact boons instead of its patrons?

>Utility fighter
What's this?

>tfw main Zelda and never use down b

I'm trying to but the party doesn't let me die.

You realize necromancy arcane tradition doesn't increase the /amount/ of zombies you get in any way right? Anyone with Finger of Death can gain an infinite number of zombies, your archtype doesn't help.

Man, fuck Circle of the Moon. Whoever thought that was a balanced archetype needs to be beaten in the street.
>Hi I'm going to invalidate damage basically forever

S: Druid. Moon Druid starts out the best and then becomes "merely" a full caster thereafter. Circle Druid probably ends up better in the long run but misses out on that early cheese.
A: Wizard, Cleric. Can't go wrong with full casting.
B: Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock. You have a shade of true power, but it is still power.
C: Paladin, Ranger. Once in a while you might get to do something cool.
D: Fighter, Barbarian, maaaaybe Rogue. You're never going to shine, but you're not a joke.
E: Badly built rogues, Monk. You're a joke. Neck yourself and make another character that might actually do something useful.

Patron doesn't change the warlock's playstyle very much. Especially compared to Pact Boon. Which do you think would define their build more, whether or not they go Fiend or GOO or whether or not they go Tome or Blade?

Might be concerned about the GM upping encounter difficulty since you are playing 'F tier' and thus acting as an anchor to overall potential of the party.

Talk with the GM about retiring the character. Like most problems in TTRPGs, just talk it out.

>I'm going to invalidate damage basically forever and whenever the rogue tries to do anything stealthy I'll cuck him out of his role by turning into a le tiny spider xd and sneaking around
>By the way I can remain wild shaped for 1/2 my druid level in hours twice per short rest so I'm literally ALWAYS wildshaped

Yea but each level gives you 1 x zombies hp and proficiency x zombies damage.

It's nice

>1 x zombies hp
Why bother with this calculation?

Battle master only picking stuff that helps allies

I'll try, next session.

Your 4-14 zombies go from 1d6+1 to damage and 22hp to 1d6+7 to damage and 42 hp is literally irrelevant. Not to mention they still keep their shitty 1d20+3 to attack. Their strength comes from action economy in a system revolving around bounded accuracy. Your archetype does not provide anything that makes them increase in size. Anyone with Finger of Death or Animate Dead can do everything you do. You are still high tier only because you're still a wizard and have the wizard chassis.

8 zombies give 8hp per level. A level 8 necromancer gets 64 net hp and 24 extra damage per round by being a necromancer.

At 8th level you have around 50 hp so you've effectively doubled your hp and effective damage with this school

Circle of the Moon is only god tier until level 5 or so. After that it's nothing special.

Life Domain depends entirely on how your DM builds encounters. If the DM is really busting your balls, then you're a godsend. If not, then your domain spells and features are essentially wasted.

Eldritch Knight isn't very good at all. They have decent defensive capability because Shield and Absorb Elements, but there's not much else to write home about.

Rogues are basically always better at sneaking since mice and shit don't have good Dex or proficiency bonuses.

Where would you put Bladesinger?

I'm gonna need a swashbucker rogue in there

I see what you ment to say now.

Still, that isnt 'your' hp, unless you can somehow take HP from your zombies when you meed it. A ~50 hp shot still downs you, so that analogy doesn't hold true, its just you have other stat blocks you command.

Circle of the Moon invalidates the Rogue class just the same as Bard does, as well as heavily steps all over the toes of anyone trying to be tanky.

Life domain gives you all the spells you would normally prepare as a cleric for free, so you don't need to bother wasting preparation slots on them and can instead focus on doing literally anything you like as a Cleric while still having the actual stuff people expect you to be able to do.

Eldritch Knight is the tankiest fuck to ever tank (as long as Moon Circle isn't being cancer), 21 AC with the ability to cast Shield, Absorb Elements, and various utility spells like Fly and Haste? Yes please.

Who the fuck is going to suspect the literal rat or spider of being an adventurer is the thing. People might see you but won't care, people see the rogue, they attack him.

A tier as long as you don't fall into the trap of thinking you should be in melee range or picking up any of the SCAG cantrips. You're basically a wizard with no archtype beyond a billion AC, but that billion AC covers one of your most vulnerable weaknesses as a d6 squishy that's constantly targeted by any enemies that know what you are.

Honestly, it might be best to ask them now in private through chat or something. You wont cause a scene if you need to explain their refusal to throw you a bone and fix the class is sucking the fun out for you, and y'all can talk about your new character you want to bring in and how the GM can push you onto the party.

Swashbuckler is A tier, it's just as good as Thief and makes melee rogue actually more viable over ranged. Bards and Druids still cuck you because Bards do everything you do except damage better than you and Druids sneak better than you because of "who would suspect the housecat xddd" but you're still a good choice.

It isn't my HP true, but boil down encounters to their base and you have this:

Enemies have 400 total hp and deal average30 dps
Heros have 500 total hp and deal average 40 dps

Fighting is then a numbers game where you deal damage to their pool of hp and they deal damage to your pool. Rolling dice and picking attacks is just a charade.

If your party does more damage and has more hp you win, if you don't you lose. That's why I spam zombies. My dm hated me before he just gave me 4 really strong zombies as a compromise because action economy, swarms of meatshields, and undead fortitude was breaking encounters.

That is the opposite of how you're supposed to boil down encounters. HP has no bearing at all on how a fight goes. A monster still has the same capabilities it had at 2000 HP even when it has 1HP. The only thing that matters is whether or not you deal enough damage to send it to 0HP and push the action economy more in your favor. That's why burst damage is much more optimal than reliable dps.

>Aang is bottom tier

Bullshit, way of the 4 elements is way better than F tier. Have you even played a 4 elements monk? How could you call it F tier?

Your elemental stuff costs too many ki points. Halve the ki price of all of it (minimum of 1) and it'll go up several tiers. As it is if you plan on using anything you'll start hemmoraging Ki points even more violently than usual compared to Stunning Strike spam.

I feel your arguement is more a testament to poor encounter design than anything else. Clearly whatever method your GM is using to plan encounters by isnt working, and as mostly new-ish GM myself I suggest you try and either dial it back a bit or help them out in someway.

GMs burnout way faster when they stress over the party going full ham as opposed to not. While its true the GM has 'more options than the players', the amount of time they get to spend dealing with a specific set of attacks/powers is so much less than the focus players have, they'll miss the mark more often than not wether its forgetting abilities or not making encounters fulfilling.

On second thought, halving the price is a bit too extreme, but as it is they still need a reduction on the ki prices.

what makes Lore bards so good?

They do everything. Literally everything.
Full Caster, skill monkeying, charisma class for good multiclassing, access to every spell in the game, healing, can easily cover all of their action economy's bonus action and reactions, powerful control options.
Their only weakness is their ability to deal damage without expending spell slots, as well as taking damage. But they have the most utility in the entire game so they're able more than any other class to manipulate situations so that they aren't in danger of taking damage or needing to deal any damage in the first place.

ganon is prolly the best bad character in the game though

Yeah but you can do that Warlock multiclass Eldritch bolt cantrip build to totally spam one spell constantly.

It's boring but the damage is high and consistent.

Yes, yes you can. Le 2 level warlock dip breaks a lot of stuff.

>Moon Druid

Past 6th level, Fighters, Barbs, and Paladins all begin to outpace Moon Druid. The lack of good wildshape options later on really hampers its usefulness as the game progresses.

>Who the fuck is going to suspect the literal rat or spider of being an adventurer is the thing. People might see you but won't care, people see the rogue, they attack him.

The difference here is that people are categorically less likely to see the Rogue because they have an actual Dex bonus and expertise. Meanwhile the druid is much more likely to be subject to the DM's mercy. It's not like it would be unreasonable for the NPCs to kill pests after all.

Also good luck picking locks or stealing things as a mouse.

>Life domain

I've played a life cleric and that's all pretty true, but the net difference in utility is pretty minimal, since you're losing out in unique features and unique domain spells. At the end of the day, you're just a cleric.

Plus I've noticed that DMs have a tendency to upscale encounters in order to offset all the extra healing and maintain tension. Admittedly, though, that might just be my experience.

>Eldritch Knight

Remember that you can't get Fly or Haste (in fact you can only get one of those before 20th level) until 14th level. Prior to that, you're basically only ever casting Shield, which is eating up your reaction. You're tanky, sure, but the higher damage from BM and Champ is usually more valuable.

>The difference here is that people are categorically less likely to see the Rogue because they have an actual Dex bonus and expertise. Meanwhile the druid is much more likely to be subject to the DM's mercy. It's not like it would be unreasonable for the NPCs to kill pests after all.
Our druid learned the lesson that in every bandit camp there's an asshole archer that is going to try to impress everyone by shooting a bird flying overhead.

>Past 6th level, Fighters, Barbs, and Paladins all begin to outpace Moon Druid. The lack of good wildshape options later on really hampers its usefulness as the game progresses.
At level 6 you get access to the cancerous tanky shapes that deal fucktons of damage such as Giant Elk, Polar Bear, and Giant Constrictor snake.
At level 9 you get the fuckin' Giant Scorpion, who has a 3-hit multiattack of 2 claws that grapple on hit and a sting that deals a d10+2 piercing with DC12 Con for 4d10 poison.
At level 12 you get an elephant for the huge creature utility and trampling attack for a respectable 3d8+6 and 3d10+6.
At level 15 you get the Triceratops which is basically an improved Elephant.
Same for the Mammoth you get at level 18.
Level 20 you have infinite wildshapes.
Moon Druid dps doesn't fall off anywhere near as hard people think it does compared to martial damage at those levels and each unlock of new beasts only further adds to the amount of utility they have in case they ever need to turn into an octopus to crawl under a door or a spider to crawl through a keyhole.

>Eldritch Knight
You still can get Alarm, Protection from E&G, Darkness, and Gust of Wind in a reasonable amount of time. If you're high enough level Counterspell, Sending, Tiny Hut, and Fire Shield are all perfectly fine spells for your collection. It's not as great at everything as Battlemaster, but it performs just as well in more situations thanks to having more survivability and out of combat utility than Battlemaster.

>Hunter
>start as a two-weapons hunter with hunter's mark
>three attacks
>drop off at level 8 and become a paladin
>three smites with hunter's mark

Granted, it does not speak about all of hunter being good, but why not just say ranger instead?

Because you can just be a Paladin and use PAM, maybe a Magic Initiate for Hex from Warlock if you want a better version of Hunter's Mark that doesn't require you to have 13 STR, DEX, and WIS just to do this multiclass. Your build is horrible.

The 3.PF-style tier shit simply doesn't apply to 5e because there's no serious dysfunction introduced by having the most broadly useful builds in the same party as the most conditionally useful builds.

Tiers exist in 5e whether you like it or not. They're just not as drastically different on a tier by tier basis compared to 3.pf's. You can be in a party of Tier As as a Tier C and not feel any worse for wear. Only when you're at opposite ends of the scale is it apparent, which shows that the game is actually pretty balanced, just not perfectly, which is fine.

Tiers require a notable difference in power, and if you DO follow the 3.pf standard, every single class is tier 3, with exactly 2 t4 options.

>Tiers require a notable difference in power
There is one. It's just not as large as 3.pf's tiers were.
Do you honestly think Ranger in general is on par with Paladin? That Warlock is on par with Wizard?

>warlock paladin multiclass

How would you justify this character without going full paizo retard? Compared to it, Ranger into Paladin is a pretty traditional thing to do and the system makes it decent.

Paladins have no requirement to be religious. They only need to serve their oath. It's very easy to be related to a powerful entity that shares those oaths.

>I'm a Devotion Paladin/GOO Warlock who seeks to ensure there is fairness and justice in all. To this end I've performed a ritual that gave me mind-influencing powers that will let me ensure that people do not lie or cheat one another, but take responsibility not to abuse this and stifle their free will unless necessary.

>I'm an Ancients Paladin/Fey Warlock who is in service to the Summer Court and seek to bring light and warmth into the hearts of everyone.

maybe try roleplaying anything besides I SOLD MY SOUL FOR DARK POWER or DEUS VULT MUH LAWFUL GOOD

Thaks for reminding me of all that I fucking hate about Pathfinder with innocent honesty.

IF YOUR PALADIN IS HEXING SOMEONE THEN WHAT IS THE FUCKING POINT OF THEM BEING EITHER A WARLOCK OR A PALADIN

Oath of Ancients multiclasses into Feylock easy. Paladin to Feylock is just going from errant fey knight to vassalized fey knight. Feylock to Paladin is just formalizing your service to your patron.

Oath of Vengeance can go into anything since it's practically built around sacrificing personal purity for more JUSTICE. It's edgy as shit, but it follows.

No idea how you'd justify Oath of Devotion to any sort of warlock aside from UA shit like Undying Light or Celestial.

>Our druid learned the lesson that in every bandit camp there's an asshole archer that is going to try to impress everyone by shooting a bird flying overhead.
This. One time the enemy outed a suspicious bat (the familiar of one of the casters) because one of them was a druid and knew bats roosted during the day and not the night (it was nighttime when this was happening).

Why would you delay your extra attack from paladin 5 like that?

>I'm an Ancients Paladin/Fey Warlock who is in service to the Summer Court and seek to bring light and warmth into the hearts of everyone.
But could this build actually work? Because it sounds interesting.

They're both charisma classes and warlock is notorious for being frontloaded. It's not the most optimal multiclass, but it's not a terrible one.

So just a 2 level dip in Warlock or would you get stupid pact thing?

There's nothing E or F tier outside memes.

2 level dip as usual, you get agonizing blast to cover Paladin's weak ranged capabilities and another invocation to fit your flavor. Disguise self at will gives a lot of utility and fits the trickster fey theme.

>Assassin archetype literally does not work
>Beast Master literally does not work
>Path of Berserker literally does not work

Do you enjoy having to roll 3 d20s to even have an Archetype, or not being able to use your archetype feature more than once a day or suffer cumulative exhaustion until you actually die?

You literally don't know the rules of the game.

Like I said, memes.

T2 - Wizard, Bard (Lore), Druid, Cleric (best archetypes)
T3 - Most things
T4 - Monk (Shadow/W4E), Ranger

No class sinks as low as T5, no class reaches T1. The most versatile classes are also extremely easy to kill, anyone denying that have DMs that favor casters. T3 is balanced by the killing ability and utility roughly counterbalanced by survivalbility, though there are absolutely best archetypes out there. The T4 classes just can't compete in their role with other classes, though Revised Ranger basically solves all the ranger's problems.

Assassin is fine as long as you're not dipping beyond level 3

Have you read the paladin paragraph about the Oath of the Ancients or are you just here to shitpost? They are Green Knights, basically. They learn fey magic on their own without any Warlock multiclass.

Explain further instead of talking shit as if that makes you relevant?

What kind of gay-ass letter ranking system is this?

Well 4e Warlord would be at the top.

>All these people ranking Rogue so low

Literally, you people are rectal cancer. Also, you probably played with people who don't go with the Thief archetype.

>enter thread out of curiosity
>get reminded why i don't play D&D or any class system

Hey man I rated Rogue a solid A for Thief and B for AT. Assassin is garbo. The class itself just suffers being outshined severely by fullcasters.

1. Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Mystic
2. Bard, Warlock
3. Ranger, Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue
4: Monk

Though this list is very dependent on your build and the level you're playing at.

Top: Bard
Mid: Everything Else
Piece of Shit: Battlemaster for being insultingly shit compared to everything it ripped off, Champion for being a worse class than Battlemaster, and Beastmaster for being worse than both of those.

>Your 4-14 zombies go from

Every single casting of animate dead can command up to 4 undead, +1 for each level above third the spell is cast at. By mid-level, your skeleton horde can be dozens strong. Even though the skeletons are individually puny, they are so numerous that crit-seeking becomes very effective. While skeleton hordes do have a few specific weaknesses, outside of situations or enemies that can exploit those weaknesses they are much more powerful in raw killing power than any other trick. Classes that are better at that trick have a massive advantage over classes that aren't on paper. In practice, the GM is probably not going to be okay with you showing up to every adventure with 50 skeletons and building your strategy around luring monsters out of the dungeon for a field battle.

Depends entirely what kind of campaign you're in, and how the GM builds the encounters/missions around the players.

I feel that every single class and subclass is very viable, but other than stuff like the Lore Bard, you can't just put a character into any given situation and expect them to do very well. Just pick your battles and stack the deck as much in your favor as possible, and you should be fine.

Also, Assassins not getting an instakill move at any point is kinda stupid, though I can see GMs just fudging the numbers when the Assassin stabs a person in their sleep.

The thing is
This is a capability you have not from being a Necromancy Wizard
This is a capability you can cast Animate Dead or Finger of Death
/Anyone/ else who can cast those spells can do this too
This isn't something super special you get to do because of Necromancer Wizard

>Tempest under nature
What

Giant scorpion is pretty shit with its +4 to hit and non-restraining grapple, situationally it might be nice but with 95 monsters in the MM immune to poison damage that's unlikely to do much either. Level 6 is definitely very nice, 10 you get elementals which if you don't have a lot of encounters per short rest or if enemies don't have magical weapons, are pretty great. Above level 13 I think the damage starts getting low compared to martials since fighters get second extra attack and stuff, but moon druid is still better overall as a full caster now at high level, and the tankiness.

Looking over the two again, I agree. I was bitter about Tempest not getting Lightning Bolt, but Nature doesn't even get Entangle. I'll swap their places for A rank Nature and S rank Tempest.

If Nature had Entangle and a slightly more useful Channel Divinity it'd be S. As it is it's only particularly amazing if you're a Dwarf and take Shillelagh for your free cantrip to be fully WIS dependant and in plate armor.

How is Circle of the Land that bad? Druid still has a good spell list, some of the lands have good land spells and the recovery of spell slots means you can cast a lot of spells. It's also a capable gish. Is it according to "Any capabilities they may have are performed easier and better by other archetypes.", i.e. moon druid does all it does as well as wild shape stuff? Because in just strict power I'd say it's definitely as good as dracnoic sorcerer at C, if not B with monks.

Why be a Land Druid when you can be any other fullcaster and be better? You're even worse of a discount wizard as Sorcerer. Your only minorly useful yet still niche Feature is at level 6, the 10 and 14 ridiculously conditional. Christ, Sanctuary as a capstone except only against two creature types and it stops working on the first successful save?

I mean draconic sorc has better features and twin is pretty great, but I don't see how their spell list is worse than sorcerer. You still have wild shape for the rogue overshadowing and such, eventually with being able to cast spells in it and turning into a giant eagle that's pretty nice, shillelagh makes you a capable gish as you have the same hp as draconic bloodline but with medium armor and shield proficiency. Conjuration spells are pretty good even if you don't do pixie cheese, I can see how they're bad compared to other full casters but not as bad as bladelock and worse than wild magic.

I'm playing an 8 STR dwarf in plate with shallallah
It's pretty rad

>Best Tier
Eldritch Knight

>Not Best Tier
The rest

Can you rate Monster Hunter?

S
>Bard
A
>Wizard
>Cleric
>Druid
>Warlock
B
>Paladin
>Rogue
>Fighter
C
>Monk
>Barbarian
>Ranger
>Sorcerer