OK now that the shilling has died down can we please admit 8th edition is shit

No one is forcing you to play. Find some friends who are willing to play an older edition, if you dislike 8e so much.

>rush and shoot
If you try to do that to an experienced player, you're gonna get massacred in a choke. Positioning and picking targets is now more crucial than ever.

Yeah its literally AoS with guns.

I will point out that Oblits are actually good now with the release of the CSM dex so...there. Also I'm p sure that possessed, mutis and spawn were never good.

Spawn are fucking fantastic. They're insanely killy for their cost. An opponent has to deal with them, but dealing with them costs more than they do.

Nigher play something else then. I'm very happy with 8th ed and so is the overwhelming majority of the people.

>Rules dont reflect fluff.
Show me one wargame where this happens.

Picking targets I can totally see, but you'll have to explain positioning in 8th to me.

Sounds good unless you built a traditional Salamander list all the way back from early 4th and now have to completely re-do list to be competative. The rules for Salamanders suck because it completely changes who they are, how they play and are in direct contradiction to what they are in canon. They suck at what they are supposed to be good at in comparison to what they used to be able to do. If you cant see this you dont play Sallies, or never had. Changing the way a faction plays, especially considering how some players have spent years building their armies to completely change the way you build, play or structure your armies just for the sake of forcing you to buy minis (the whole reason for the rule and faction changes btw). The rules suck, I know cause I've read them and played them and see the justification of raping canon and history to do so (forcing me to buy new shit to actually be competative and play). The fact that so many of you have jumped on the shit wagon and are not willing to admit that this 8th ed is dumber (removing individualism of different factions, removes significant effort in planning, building and playing your army, and obsoletes positioning by removing templates, casualties in range, and terrain restrictions), punishes once again hobbyists, rewards codex creeps, powergamers and those with cash to spend on the new superpowerful shit they'll release with every update is astounding.

It is dumber, and rewards the lazy.

When facing a template weapons, or navigating terrain, or even facing massed firing you had to take into consideration how you placed your guys, as one pie plate could wipe out your entire squad if you were stupid enough to wander, closely packed in front of a demolisher cannon in the open, rather than space out behind cover to minimalize casualties. It also meant if you had templates weapons you tried to angle you shot (once again using firing arcs) as to hit the most in a shot. Removing these removes a layer of planning or nuance to the game that makes is dumber.

I was trying to say that 8th seemed to have lost a lot of reasons to be careful with positioning.

I don't think it's terribly "tactical" to space out your dudes more, but 8th lost any advantage to hitting armor from the sides/rear, and cover seems to lighter in its effects.

Sorry user, I meant to reply to I actually agree with you. Hitting the soft spot through careful positioning and play was always good. 8th doesn't have this. As for the getting caught in a choke, no each game I've played has degenerated into run shoot, run shoot, melee. It's AoS 40k

Bullshit, 40k was never an "easy game to enjoy over cold beer and pretzels"

Been playing since 2nd edition, first of all you had to spend heaps of time and money (this hasn't changed) to field and customise your army. Secondly games of 40k at points higher than 1500 would take all fucking day, even a 750 would take through planning, playing and finishing the better part of 3-4 hours to complete. With it's different cards, codexes, movements every phase was 80% flipping back and forward through your tomes in order to get the rules right. This was fine as long as you didn't play a rules lawyer (which you always ended up playing) which would stretch the time out even further. It was clunky, it was slow, it was complicated, but it was fun.

3rd Edition streamlined, and whilst the mechanics were good removed a lot of the flavor that 2nd had. Even then though the game lengths stayed similar all the way through to 6th, which clunked things up. That said 5th was the best edition thus far, and could easily accommodate the changes from the 6th edition factions (traitor legions, angels of death etc.). It was simple enough to learn but allowed customization whilst also rewarding tactical play style.

But again, normal 1500s 2-4 hours play, anything larger longer with Apoc games taking up to 2 days. It was never an easy "couple of cold ones" game. Besides gaming you had modelling, painting and building lists, things you've had since Rogue trader.

Add into this it was never an easy hobby to get into and required money, time and effort to even be able to field an army this "casual, easy hobbyist" thing is complete bullshit. 40K, or Warhammer, were deep and required a steep learning curve that rewarded time and investment.

(cont)

I've never personally played 40k and I couldn't give half a shit whether 8th edition is better or worse than 7th.
But:
>>Rules dont reflect fluff
It's a bit late in the game to act like THAT'S a dealbreaker. The fact that it has this many editions at all should speak volumes about why that's a goofy thing to gripe about.

No one should admit to stupid bullshit.

>makes a bunch of unwarranted claims and hyperbolizes beyond belief
Begone shitposter.

Obliterators are shit, true. giving them Lascannon, Meltas and heavy bolter, firing one of them, would have been better.

Firing arks are a bit silly with boxing basilisks facing the opposite direction.

For casual games we had Necromunda, Mordheim, Gorkamorka, BFG, Bloodbowl and other games. These are your "couple of cold one games" designed to punch out a few quick skirmishes between friends so you could laugh and enjoy the antics that came from said games as they encouraged narrative as well as quick fun.

But again, all the time 40K and Warhammer were the big leagues (so to speak) which took time and effort all the way through to enjoy.

But I've gotta admit why this version really pisses me off.

You see I've always taken the time, playing a huge game with my guys was my reward. Knowing I had invested the time and effort to learn the rules, build my lists, buy, paint and field my army. I knew 40K was never casual and excepted is at such.

But guess what happened. Pretty soon parents started dropping their fucking spoiled kids into game stores. Kids who wanted "the best army", kids who couldn't narrative because they'd either never taken the time nor cared enough to learn. Soon they'd turn up with armies of grey plastic brand new because mum and dad bought it for them. Too lazy to put any effort in they'd handle your minis (often breaking them, or spilling shit on them) or interupt games to put themselves as the centre of attention. They'd throw tantrums when they'd lose games (as they never bothered to list build or play their armies). You'd play a large Apoc game, organized through friends, only to have the squeakers either complain to be included (in which case they fuck things up by not learning rules or not following group strategy) or they'd pick up minis and not place them back where they took them. Parents would complain about the metal music playing, or conversations about things like Slaanesh, or Dark Eldar, or 'gasp' movies or things not PG, forcing Redshirts to autistically enforce rules on what is or isn't "appropriate conversation". These kids were the dribbling shits, they sucked. (cont)

we should have known after they ruined Warhammer Fantasy that they'd do the same to 40k eventually. just didn't expect it so fast.

It mostly bothers me that basically everything rerolls 1s, and if customize your army, you can have a new cool rule that allows you to reroll more ones.

Fundamentally the "everything is spam" problem of 7th also hasn't been solved.

Those kids still fucking suck, only they've grown up. They're still lazy, not willing to invest time, effort, or energy to actually play the game but instead they insist on everything being dumbed down for them. They insist on "Beer and Pretzel" gaming, which translates to dumb, simple and easy because like the cunts they are they cant be bothered to put any effort into anything but still expect to be rewarded as if they have. Furthermore they insist on "moving the setting on" resulting in shit like the end times or the complete bullshit that is 8th Edition fluff, as they are too stupid to realize the point of "there is only war" is there is no point to stories, making the ones YOU as a player create mean something more. I mean if you can't get creative with 10,000 years and entire galaxy of war with which to base your guys off then it's you not the setting that's pants on head retarded.

Fuck you if you want easy go X-wing or something else. Don't insist on the big league being dumbed down for your hipster self. If you cant put in the time, you shouldn't belong in 40k or Fantasy.

The sad thing though is that GW now is catering to you, which means that we get simplified generic bullshit which doesn't reward depth and dedication but rewards retards like yourself who want simple. The reason you want simple is because you (and others) have the attention span of a braindead knat and will move onto the next shiny thing, leaving a fucking simplified mess to fix for those of us who actually stick around.

Rules are 100% fluffy, because tactics and positioning dont matter, perfect 40K is perfect.

P.S. even in your 20's you fuckers still have mum and dad buy everything for you which is why you dont value a thing.

>I knew 40K was never casual and excepted is at such.
For being such a clusterfuck of rules the games itself were painfully non-strategic though. Point and Click armies dominated starting 5th, movement was irrelevant for 60% of the armies, melee was retarded and counter intuitive with wanting to actually not be as deadly as possible, morale was completely ignored for most of the armies and vehicles were just ad for no reason except shit balancing, saves were worthless and always replaced by cover or invulns anyway.

This is the first edition since 5th where melee actually feels worthwhile again, surrounding units now actually does something, movement is now actually worth it for most units, saves actually do something instead everyone and their mother running ap3 anyway.
While I miss templates because I liked playing with them, there was no point to them. Everyone spread out, everyone just had their units mad maximum coherency-range which slowed the game but added no depth. Rolling for hits isn't optimal, but I think it's better than everyone running around in conga lines. Now this needs to be fixed for aura effects as well. I would welcome returning weak-spots for units like back armor, though, and it would be simple to implement.

>Furthermore they insist on "moving the setting on"
Agreed, moving away from your-dude-ism annoys me to no end. The part of my 4th ed Marine codex that I used so much it literally tore from the book were the chapter creation rules.

>The reason you want simple is because you (and others) have the attention span of a braindead knat and will move onto the next shiny thing, leaving a fucking simplified mess to fix for those of us who actually stick around.
The reason people like me prefer clear and solid rules is because we actually work or study or both and don't have time to sift through equipment cards and memorize 4 pages of USRs. Coincidentally this allows us to buy NEETs out of the hobby. Gentrification hooray!

If you don't want to play in public because your ass blasted about young people ruining your game, why don't you just play an older edition with all of your good friends who share the same opinions with you? Surely you wouldn't have ANY trouble with that, right?

Hooray, I manage you fuckers. As an age group (with only two fucking exceptions out of the many I have or do manage ) you work, but you work poorly, even then half arsing your efforts and not knowing your shit. Even then you insist on things being dumbed down for you because you're too lazy to learn to do things properly and are basically retarded as a result. You don't gentrify, you stupify. I hope the next generation works because I will happily fire the lot of you as it cuts down on the amount of work my competant workers have to do cleaning and fixing up after you, decreases the babysitting I have to do as a manager, and eliminates the drama in the workplace everytime one of you precious little teacups gets upset that something offends your world view. You're not eliminating NEETs, you are the NEETs, sheltered, lazy and will require babysitting by more competant generations all the way up til you turn grey and die.

>hangs out at GW stores
>complains about kids
>thinks 40k was ever tactically complex and not a chill "beer and pretzels" game

Dude you need to get a life... your seriously depressing.

40k has always been a simple game, move > shoot > charge. For fucks sakes 3rd ed. was the era of the Rhino rush, where SM fucking rushed up the field and got into combat asap. GW had to go back and change the CORE RULES just to stop it.

The game was simplified because it takes to fucking long, and you know that's the god damn truth. Not because "spoiled little rich kids demanded easy mode". For what boils down to a 2 ft line of toy soldiers running into each other, it shouldn't get slowed down by stupid shit like slowly placing your 20 man ork units so as to avoid blast markers, or arguing over weather your LOS is to the front or side of of a tank.

yeah, I'm not digging 8th edition so far.
ShadowWar got me excited, but then I saw the rules for 8th edition.

>As an age group (with only two fucking exceptions out of the many I have or do manage ) you work
I'm reasonably sure you're not actually referring to my age group as I'm in my early 30s now from a country where millennials are just now becoming a thing.
>I hope the next generation works
Unlikely, education's so fucked up they won't have the skills and society's got so little hope for success they just don't give a fuck anymore.

yeah,I loved the game before I discovered what else was out there.
I liked warmachine because you needed to really plan your turn or you'll die hard.
X-wing was fun because you needed to plan your turns and trust the force to win.
Each of those games have their flaw, and I would really like to reconnect with 40k like that old friend from High school.
But,like that friend, they never left town and haven't really changed over the years.

>your lack of life, of which I have nothing to base this claim on other than being ass blasted, depresses me
>Not the fact that what the guy is saying is right
>Not the fact that GW dumbed things down to sell to me the latest shiny shit to stay relevant as I'm the lowest common denominator.
>Not the fact that I never actually bothered to learn game beyond run-shoot, run-shoot.

GW built this edition to make things obsolete so they can sell you new things. Not to make the game faster. It's catered to you ADHD deadshits. This edition sucks, the only thing preventing anyone from seeing this is either they never played any edition other than 6th or 7th where things slowed down or they're to hyped on the gordy new shit.

Well, fluff dont matter anymore.

>Spawn
>not worth the time and investment

Fuck you, my unit of 5 have been wrecking shit.

Fuck if they're just becoming a thing I do not envy you. Expect to work more, get paid the same, and any achievement you actually earn be watered down as the little shits insist on getting the same recognition you got (despite not actually working to earn it). Expect meetings where kids with no idea or experience feel they have "something to say or add". Expect sexual harrassment or bullying claims when their lazy, under qualified ass misses out on a promotion that went to someone better. Expect such claims to cause havoc and division in an otherwise harmonious workplace, especially when they evoporate in the light of even the barest of scrutiny. Expect safety breaches, lack of respect for personal and company property and expect to be told you're the cause of all of it. Fuck Millenials.

Perfect baiting by OP, I'm impressed at his spoiled autism.

>GW built this edition to make things obsolete so they can sell you new things
-that is literally copy paste for every new edition and every new codex
>ADHD deadshits
"blame the rich little lazy kids" you've already admitted you hang out at GW stores to get your hobby kicks, and you've done that for a long long time. We know what kind of person hangs out at GW stores, not to mention ones with a stick up their ass about kids, so stop spouting your BS "my generations better work ethic BS". This isn't a Trump rally, and your not part of some golden generation where shit never hit the fan.
>This edition sucks
-every edition does, fuck, everything GW puts out sucks to some extent, to only realize that now shows how fucking juvenile your thinking is

Change up is fucking inevitable, it's the only way to revitalize the game, because holy shit, no one should be still playing the same army list they played in fucking 3/4/5th ed. I don't make any claim that 8th is going to be fucking perfection, but if you've only just got the stuck up your butt about lazy GW writing, holy shit you haven't been following GW for long have you?

Hang out anywhere a game goes dude. But kids aint GW exclusive, they're in every fucking LGS. I don't mind kids, but I loathe hobby store kids

More complex rules != more interesting options.

Chess is an incredibly deep game, but it's rules are simple and can be learned in an hour. The same can be said of Magic. The same can be said of this awesome hex game on the PC called Unity of Command. The same cannot be said of ASL. I play ASL. Not as much as I used to because it's a monster, but that game is 100x more fun using just the slimmed down Starter Kit rules than it is busting out the big binder. The amount of options that huge fucker adds never feels worth it compared to the amount of time investment it adds.

A good rule set needs to:
-Be easy to understand/written clearly
-Be simple enough that the player can commit how it works to memory
-Provide players with interesting choices
-Provide feedback to the player when they make those choices so the player can improve their decision making

That's it. Anything else is secondary and that's something GW hasn't understood for a while - they think adding more and more special rules to each army gives them flavor, that adding more granularity adds tactical depth, and that changing rules and adding more units for them to sell you wouldn't inevitably piss people off and drive them away. But that's where we are, people have been driven away.

GW saw a big boom in it's player-base in the late 90s and early 2000s, but those players are either gone, or suffering from serious hobby fatigue. A lot of them are professionals with families now. They don't have the patience for the bullshit of 5th/6th/and especially 7th Ed. GW finally realized that, and they have since overhauled both of their settings to address that issue. Make no mistake, it has been extremely successful for them, and because it's making money - they're going to double down on it. This is the new path for 40K. If you don't like it, things will only get worse for you. Either find a group of people that will play an old edition with you, or resign yourself to just painting figs and reading the books.

>The same can be said of Magic.
The underlying system is simple, but cards can be complex, and playing with the core set is boring as shit. But even that's got more tactical depth than 8th.

>but I loathe hobby store kids
I have no doubt their are shit kids out there at GW stores as well as LGS', but blaming them for all of GW's woes is like the oldest fucking thing in the book.

>can we please admit 8th edition is shit
I've been playing this game since 2nd edition and this is the best set of core rules we've ever had, son.

The game is still missing a lot of elements it needs to truly shine - the rest of the codexes will mostly fix that, some better campaign rules and a couple expansions will do the rest. But it's on a path to greatness.

So, did 8th edition piss on anyone else's army list, or just this guy's?

I think the core rules are in a good spot at the moment, now we need some tweaks to create depth again.

Add a weak spot rule that adds +1 to wound to attacks into a vehicles/walkers/big creatures back.
Increase the range of auras and make it so the entire squad needs to be within range to kill conga lines.
Turn roughly half of the weapons that roll dice for their shots count back into fixed values, this variation isn't necessary.
Nerf the first turn, possibly by having all shooting attacks occur at -1 BS or even -2 BS and reducing all charge distances by 2, remove seize the initiative and bring back the system where the player that deployed first goes first with units of PL 15 or above counting as 3 deployments and units of PL 30 or above counting as 6 deployments or by counting LoWs as 3 deployments.

My Tyranids got about infinity times better so I have little to complain about, really. Spoiled marinefags can suck a fat one.

>Spoiled marinefags
Nigga I field 60 Tacticals and this is literally my favorite edition. Foot slogging isnt shit anymore, melee isnt shit anymore, armor isnt shit anymore.

Drop Pods being overpriced is bitter, but the trade was definitely in my favor.

Primaris Drop Pod when? Drop Pods are probably one of the if not the most iconic transport for marines. Having GoodScale Marines and not being ale to pod them hurts.

>Salamanders now suck at flamers/melta their core fucking theme
that's a fringe consideration for a specific chapter. overall nobody cares.
>Lelith Hesperax, who's fluff states she's never used combat drugs, now uses combat drugs.
whoop-dee-doo, big frigging thing
>>Obliterators now plain suck with their random guns, they are no longer a useful utility unit. Possessed, Spawn and Mutilators are obselete and not worth the time and investment.
confirmed for not understanding the game
>>The removal of templates, firing arcs, and controlling player chooses which of his models he'll remove makes the idea of having to think how you position a joke.
and again, you have no clue. positioning matters a lot, esepecially for protecting characters, close combat, thwarting off deepstrikers

you could have lamented the piss-poor cover rules, the ridiculous flamer versus flyers BS, the unnecessary lack of vehicle facings but instead you had to go full-on retard.

overall, 8th is still the best 40K we ever had. just make sure you spam LOS blocking terrain.

use more LOS blockers

>Bullshit, 40k was never an "easy game to enjoy over cold beer and pretzels"
someone doesnt remember 3rd ed, the original dumb-down/streamlining sin

>memorize 4 pages of USRs.
you still have them now but spread over individual entries, such as not!FnP, Hard-to-Hit, etc. you literally gained nothing.

they were smart enough to centralize point costs but they can't update USRs easily anymore because they decentralized them. fucking dumb.

this way it cuts down on a lot of cross referencing and you can immediately judge how good a unit is from their profile.

Outside of sexual harassment claims, everything you listed has been standard workplace politics for a long time.

But you could do that before, or they could just put the rule on the card next to the USR name, thus preventing you from having to memorize like ten abilities or having to turn pages in a book but still allowing you to have USRs that change or interact with each other, like a megapoison weapon that disables FnP or something, or a unit that prevents Deep Strike within a larger radius.
Giving them all different names randomly was an idiotic move because it made a bunch of possible interesting interactions way harder to word for no reason.

>USRs that change
they really shouldn't beyond clarifications.

>USRs that change or interact with each other
that will just lead to +1-itis where you get an arms race of which special rule trumps which other special, similar to what happened in 7th and 6th. Such interactions MUST be in the core rules to keep the design elegant.

>a unit that prevents Deep Strike within a larger radius
that's possible now

Damn this thread was halarious. OP, how long did you have all of these thoughts stewing in your little head that you had to shit them out on Veeky Forums? Entertained me all the way to work, thanks senpai

>he's a middle manager
mystery solved boys

>everyone who likes something I don't is a shill
8th is a great edition, but if you don't like it, then just don't play it.

>Lelith Hesperax, who's fluff states she's never used combat drugs, now uses combat drugs.

If whole of reality split apart, I'd start doing drugs.

Weird you didn't say anything about SW getting to deep strike their terminators, even though they don't like such arcane techno-sorcery.

>The removal of templates, firing arcs, and controlling player chooses which of his models he'll remove makes the idea of having to think how you position a joke.

You know what's a joke? Autistically spreading your minis 2" apart for max coherency. Plenty of games do just fine without templates. Player getting to choose which models to remove is not a new phenomena either. And if you're bitching about firing arcs now, I really do hope you bitched about them in the past, like how a stormsurge with its forward facing guns can fire behind it or a bike with its rear wheel poking behind a corner can fire its bolters through it.

Either remove arcs, facings, etc. or make everyone abide by them.

I don't like how they handled templates either, and flamers auto-hiting aircraft is just silly. The removal of vehicle facings took tactical depth from the game but I believe this is mitigated by the new deployment mechanics.

Other than that the game is objectively better, stratagems and the new drtachment systems go a long way towards balancing lists in a fun way. Each faction is actually good at what it is suppossed to now too, and each of them is getting their own version of Chapter/Legion tactics such as Ork klans and AdMech forgeworlds.

Oblits are very good now, 4 shots each that are autocannon at worst and lascannons at best, and can run and shoot them for -1 to hit! Possessed aren't bad either, with the 5++ and 2 wounds each they are essentially tougher and slightly faster berzerkers which make a good replacement for them in fluffy non-khorne lists. Finally Spawn are even tougher and pack a hell of a punch now, can't simply be ignored by the enemy anymore.

So it fixed a lot of things but fucked up some others. I can take the MASSIVELY improved game balance in exchange for some tactical depth, because the latter is pointless if one or two factions can steamroll everything.

To be honest, I'm bored, and high.
I genuinely hate 8th edition, also hate 7th, but for whatever reason obviously thought it'd be fun to vent my shroom induced frustrations online (don't judge me fuckers 1st week of 1 months holidays). Don't remember much of my arguing but it seems I let some work place frustrations blur the line with my GW hate. This is disappointing I was hoping to double rainbow. Oh well, serves me right I guess.

...

>He thinks that 2-4 hours to play is a long game.

>implying fun is subjective
The game runs smoother, I spend less time looking up rules, my army isn't shit for the first time in 7 years, movement values offer minimum complication with a large addition of strategy, the change of vehicles to toughness/wounds/armor saves does a lot to simplify the game in a good way, assault feels effective and actually offers tactical decisions other than "well, I guess I'm stuck until I run or die," Narrative missions make asymmetrical fights feel fun and exciting, new deep strike rules make reserves feel completely tactical and not random as hell, the Psychic phase FINALLY got fixed. Tough armies feel tough, fast armies feel fast. For the first time in ages, most armies are either on or nearly on the same footing.

That said, I have a few problems. Mostly due to how ineffective most AOE weapons are now, and how cover is completely fucked. Within my own army (Tyranids), some weapon stats/prices make no goddamn sense.

Overall? I enjoy it more than I've enjoyed any edition since 4th, and every player in my local meta has enjoyed it.

Sorry, meant objective.

>I'm in my early 30s now from a country where millennials are just now becoming a thing.

No, user, You ARE a millennial. Dumbshit 12 year olds are something else.

Then go play 2nd edition if you enjoy "complexity" for the sake of it. 8th edition is flawed but is by far the best ruleset the game has had in YEARS, I could argue that perhaps 5th would've been better had all books been made at the same time but they werent and that edition also had many flaws, still 8th is fun to play, there's an enjoyable ammount of moving parts within an army that can be toyed around with and this idea that simplicity is "dumb" is frankly a flawed argument, the best games in humanity's history are the simplest, chess is anything but a complex game and millions enjoy it. Simplicity, in a game, is something to strive for not run away from.

The fact that most codexes seem to have been made around the same time only makes this edition better than any other in 40k's history, the fact that people are coming back to the game should be proof enough that they have succeeded in creating a game that attracts old and young blood and is enjoyable, go play other games if you dont like it.

Can we just admit that word no longer means anything, if it ever did? When some people are claiming the first millenials are now pushing 40 and others are saying it only refers to people born after Y2K, does it have any real definition? When it's nothing but a conveniently nebulous scapegoat for everything you don't like, from restaurant trends to political ideologies, does it serve any real purpose?

I'm a middle manager and I want to punch this presumptive cunt in the mouth. Guarantee he's still middle 20s, but he's convinced that his narcissism that dictates that all the OTHER middle 20s people are somehow inferior to him is completely and totally different of the narcissism that they display.

No. I love 8th edition. Get fucked, OP.

Post-2000 is Gen Y, silly.

It's mostly fine, except for cover and blast weapons.

I think 8th is better than 7th but still not engaging enough to re-invest in the game. Also the fluff is a dumpster fire and has been for some time so I have lost the capacity to engage with the settting. At least you folks enjoy this, I refuse to shit on people for having fun.

>arguing over weather your LOS is to the front or side of of a tank.
2bh they should have just borrowed FoWs system (any model behind a straight line draw across the front of the vehicle hits sides, sides and rear using a single armour value), and used a modified toughness for sides and front would have simplified it enough

And people born in 1980 are on the tail end of Gen X. You'll notice that while those terms aren't totally defined at the edges, they have ranges of years people generally agree on. Meanwhile, there's tons of "early millennials" who have kids now, who by plenty of peoples reckoning are also considered millennials. Isn't the word supposed to refer to one specific generation of people?
Y'know, if I didn't know any better I'd think this was a meaningless buzzword or soemthing...

>all this facing fags

If you want facing, demand vehicle bases first.

Facing is a bullshit rule without actual measurable points. WMH does it, X wing does it, no sensible miniature game demands facing without base for the facing to be defined on.

I'm enjoying 8th overall. It's nice to get rid of the rules bloat.

The only thing that pisses me off is GW pumping out SM when most of the CSM is extremely dated.

Furthermore they really could sell packs of special weapons etc so I didn't have to trawl or kit-bash to access basic options.

You can talk about the degradation of rules all you want, OP. It's the slow decay of the quality in the models that hurts me.

In Star Wars: Imperial Assault, Greedo has an incredibly high initiative, but a special rule called "Slow on the Trigger" that lets enemies take a free shot on him if he tries to shoot them. Thus giving crunch behind the debate over whether Greedo or Han shot first. ;)

>You have to debate everyone all the time no matter how retarded they are acting

This is what happens when an entire generation grows up acting like a choice of two essentially identical game consoles is a matter of identity and character. You get people who fundamentally don't understand how to think critically, and view their opinion as a source of validation.

Are you a Sallies player? They have a bunch more characters in the Forgeworld Index, including a Dreadnought character.

>Have to redo do list from 4TH EDITION
For fucks sake...

They do. So do Forgeworld.

Every 8e tournament list has fundamentally managed to be even crazier than the spammiest of spam lists from 7th. If 40k 8e lore were to reflect the actual crunch:

-Every Tau Crisis Suit is piloted by a commander. You never see Fire Warriors or basis Crisis Suits. (YMMV if 7 Crisis Commanders that cannot be targeted is worse than 3 Riptides)
-You never see Tactical Marines, except a mandatory few to avoid being "tabled" while Stormravens handle everything else (neutered due to rule changes).
-Draigo, Bobby G, and Celestine hang out as Superfriends, while 6 Culexus Assassins serve as bullet-distractions going "neenerneener, you have to shoot me first."
-Basilisks are better at anti-aircraft than crowd control.

Oh yeah, and they fucking made Necrons Tomb Kings in Space even more, naming the Necron Lord's power "My Will Be Done." You know, the same power a Tomb King or Tomb Prince had before they were squatted.

>Every 8e tournament list has fundamentally managed to be even crazier than the spammiest of spam lists from 7th
You mean the lists that got nerfed immediately and the tournament where top 8 were all different armies?

Yeah, list diversity in 40k is pretty fucking crazy.

>demand vehicle bases first
I did for years and still do.

Fucking Fantasy Flight the madmen

Gen X ends in early to mid 80's (depending on region and who you ask), after which you get Gen Y till early 2000's. Kids born after that are Gen Z.

>>demand vehicle bases first
>I did for years and still do.
Defiler really needs it. I've never seen a Defiler that hasn't snapped off its legs at one point.

Seriously though, vehicles not having bases is just fucking stupid.

Conscript nerf when?

LVO has always had wildly different lists from year to year. Most armies do simply because 40k generally hasn't had a stable meta. In fact, the only time I can think of the exact same army winning the same tournament two years in a row was Tony Kopach's Space Wolves in 2010 and 2011. ("3 points over.")

> I've never seen a Defiler that hasn't snapped off its legs at one point
I have. It was purely showcase because defilers kinda suck

>sensible miniature game

I think you mean "autistic sperglord on the internet."

...

The Culexus list is a gimmick and it's easy to change the Culexus rules to take care of the unintended interaction. And GW fixed flyers lists pretty quickly while still keeping flyers useful to everyone else.

The top BAO lists were full of the strong units(Conscripts), but seemed pretty reasonable compositionally to me. For example: