Warcraft Lore and RPG Discussion

Putting together a Warcraft campaign. See the below post for the details.

goddamn you arthacucks are the worst

Still think either a Miniature game could work, but this will probably work only with a 3D printing service instead of selling the minis themselves (so the players can make their characters).

>time travel killed it
Just one of the coffin's nails.

I like the part where orcs built red dragon breeding stables

Alliance stays together in case something like the Old Horde happens again.

Alexstrasza is actually angry with the Orcs for a while and has to wrestle with this.

Someone else is in charge after SCOURGE instead of the Plot Device Designed Solely to Drive the Blood Elves Out of the Alliance (PDDSDBEOA). Have the aftermath of Lordaeron's fall be Varian's first test as king, actually USE his childhood friendship with Arthas.

Make Thrall a better judge of character, able to recognize when the people around him are being idiots.

Either make Sylvanas more sympathetic (give her actual morals, especially in life) or have her see some form of comeuppance. Maybe make Sylvanas an actual "mini-LK" to the Forsaken to better justify her obsession with staying alive - if she dies, the Forsaken will immediately fall back under the Scourge's control. Their freedom DEPENDS on her survival.

The fates of Turalyon and Alleria are completely unknown this time. Khadgar and Arator don't just "know" they're alive.

Antonidas is smart enough to run this time.

Work Pandaren into the story far earlier. I like those guys, but I can see how people who didn't play the Rexxar missions in WCIII would have a problem with them showing up "out of nowhere."

The Night Elves STAY savage, and go neither Alliance nor Horde.

Also the stupid draenai space ship crashes a couple miles to the west and they all fucking drown

I never said that, user.

I'm not sure what to do with the Great Eredar Retcon.

On the one hand, I have no personal grievances against the Draenei. On the other hand, they need a more unique role in the story. To that end, I think I have SOMETHING. It's probably not great, but it's something.

That thing where all the Draenei NPC's were born on Argus? That doesn't happen. Make the Exodus of the Draenei a truly generational affair.

In this timeline, Maraad could be the overall military commander of the remaining Draenei, with Romuul having his old place - and Velen's successor might be chosen from among the people.

VELEN IS DEAD. He sold his life dearly, but the Prophet is DEAD, and so are all the windchimes they had, and now his people have to not only adapt to a new world, but do so WITHOUT him. They must face all the drawbacks of a people who are losing their ability to maintain their technology, losing the generation who knows why they ran - causing some internal strife - and most importantly, they have to learn how to figure things out for themselves again instead of having a clairvoyant and a bunch of angel crystals telling them what to do.

This gives them a reason to learn from and interact with the races of Azeroth far more often, and to accept Nobundo more easily - they're not going home, they need all the help they can get because the time when everyone knew exactly what to do is OVER.

>The Night Elves STAY savage, and go neither Alliance nor Horde

THIS

FOR GOD'S SAKE, THIS

Give Orgrim a mag'har kid so there's we have a trio of kids living in dad's shadow. Make Orgrim jr a warmonger that wants to prove himself in battle like dad while Garrosh acts more like his intial self I'm BC and is constantly afraid of making his father's mistakes

Er, some things I forgot.

Either Ishanah or a toned-down Yrel could be the new Spiritual Liege, but there will never again be a Prophet.

Most of the NPC's you'd meet would have been born on Draenor this time, and the elders would all look that way.

Draenei could stay independent due to needing all the help they can get - resulting in what little of their tech can be both salvaged and explained spreading to both factions. The Gnomes and Goblins start using that crystal stuff in their machines, with the Gnomes being more successful due to not blowing up all the crystals.

Come to think of it, make the Draenei be more clearly "alien." Those crystals power power armor that is CLEARLY power armor. They have mechs, they have hovercraft - but they're running out of people who know how to make it due to sheer attrition.

If Night Elves stayed savaged would be the vanilla races in WoW?

>On the one hand, I have no personal grievances against the Draenei. On the other hand, they need a more unique role in the story. To that end, I think I have SOMETHING. It's probably not great, but it's something

>Take out "Draenei and add them back in as Broken.
They came in small communities as slaves to the orcs and soul batteries for fel.
They are currently Living in the swamp of Sarrows with the other even more curropt version of the Drainei there.
They are unsteady allies with the Humans and Dwarves that freed them from slavery and are working toward building a civilization to guard the dark portal on their own.

I think Vanilla would be

>Alliance: Humans, Gnomes, Dwarves, with nonplayable but prominent High Elf NPC's
>Horde: Orcs, Trolls, Tauren, with nonplayable but prominent Ogre NPC's

Later, you could add, assuming everyone I've said stays independent does so:

>alt!BC: Horde gets playable Ogres, Alliance gets playable High Elves
>alt!WotLK/alt!Cata: not sure - Horde COULD get living Nerubians, Alliance COULD get free-but-flesh-cursed Anubisaths
>alt!MoP: Wandering Isle Pandaren reveal Pandaria to outsiders, saying "hey, we're going to rediscover our roots, anyone wanna come join us?" - Alliance get a breakaway Mogu group and Horde get Saurok

Subraces would also be a thing, and MAYBE keep the Paladin/Shaman divide. Play up the "Alliance races are Titan-related" thing, too.

The old UDE one was pretty fuckin neato. Sadly, the designers encouraged shitty environments for booster pushing.

That's also a very good option. Not my personal cup of tea (mostly I like a lot of the current Draenei aesthetic), but that's a definite way of working them more deeply into Azeroth and avoiding the Big Retcon.

Aside from playing through Warcraft 1-3, what are some good options for learning Warcraft lore before WoW?

They are pumping out these Chronicle books that are the "official" WoW history that are a decent read.
Unfortunately it Retcons a bunch of the best parts of the lore to facilitate the cluster fuck that is wow lore.

>Is Maiev insane or is she right edition

Neither, she's horny for some Illicock.

I like these. I think a good way to make Sylvanas more sympathetic would be to have her interact with people more like Vereesa (as Alleria was MIA) and other people that she cares about.

Actually interested in this. looks to be a well made conversion. I'll have to check my schedule

What do they retcon? I actually saw them in a Chapter's the other day and thought about getting them.

>Warcraft is dead, time travel CORRUPTED it.

ftfy

A question to the lorebruls of this thread;
I wish to fluff my character been born and raised in a human tribe in stranglethorn, is that possible?

...

Who isn't?

Fixed.

OldCraft best craft.

This stuff is all nice but almost all of it is for after the third war, user asked specifically for the Second War.

Wait, why Ogres and not Goblins? Or Nerubians but not Goblins? Why even consider Pandaria in this alternate universe?

Also one of the central problems, I feel, for WoW is that there are 2 factions and not 3. There should've been Night Elf Females, Night Elf Males (that's right, gender stratification, just as their culture dictates) and Dryads/Keepers originally with possibly classic Draenei and Pandaren added later.

Scourge and Forsaken remain distinctly NONPLAYABLE and ENEMIES because the alternative is a shitstorm of undeath apologists. The way to deal with damn death metal spikeheads/vampire necrophiliac fangirls is to not give them a damn inch in the first place.

It's possible. It's on the eastern kingdoms so it's not too far out there. Something you have to think about single they dealt with all the harsh animals and trolls because Strangelthorn would be brutal for humans

Wrong. Purging Stratholme was Arthas' only choice. Abandonning Startholme would've only resulted in more death and snowballing the scourge into an unstoppable force more than ever. Pursuing Mal'Ganis was what turned Arthas into the Lich King. If Uther and Jaina hadn't abandonned him he wouldn't have had to claim Frostmourne.

Knowing the geography in Stranglethorn, that feels like it'd be tricky. Humans don't really live in jungles if they can help it and there's plenty of room not to. Northern Stranglethorn in particular is the epicentre of a Troll civilization and they're the reason humans live in castled towns in the first place.

>Wait, why Ogres and not Goblins?
Ogres were part of the original Horde, so it might make sense for them to stick together.

That said, the orcs and ogres actually hate each other so I doubt they'd team up if the ogres got an opportunity to fuck off.

>Wait, why Ogres and not Goblins? Or Nerubians but not Goblins?
>Timeline to fix the clusterfuck of lore
>Still want to make one of the biggest and most powerful neutral factions that they had horde aligned again.

Humans have no meaningful settlements in Stranglethorn Vale.

He could be a pirate kid though; they make a lot of use of Stranglethorn's coast.

Goblins aren't a unified force dude, there are some Goblins on their own while the majority are neutral.
By contrast, Nerubians with the Horde makes so little sense I can't even begin, as for Ogres:

Exactly. Ogres in the Horde is like Vrykul in the Alliance. It made sense in Warcraft 2 when they were essentially enslaved, but the Horde is all about freedom now.

>on their own
Meant
>with the Horde.

From yes to no, I'll go with the oprhan from booty bay then, since pirates are done to death here and I don't want a damn pirate accent
In before she doesn't have a choice,
and Bell from Booty Bay is not what I had in mind, but that'll be it I suppose

>Nerubians with the Horde makes so little sense I can't even begin
>Old Kalimdor race
>Enslaved under old gods
>Even specifically said to be one of the few insect races to not like serving the the old gods
>Enslave under Litch king

It is literally fitting the original poster child requirements for why the horde was formed.
As for ogre even if they dislike the horde en mass, there is still the whole tribe of mok'nathal.
Saying there are a minority of goblins with the horde while the majority are neutral doesn't get rid of the fact it is stupid to make a heavy neutral race have a character available in one faction not to mention if you are so for freedom of the horde what do goblins even have to be free from? The steam wheel cartel and Venture Co. let them do pretty much anything that makes money.

Nerubians were driven back to Northrend before the events of Warcraft 3, and were dying long before then. By the time of the Undead campaign in WC3 they're almost all converted into undead. You'd have an easier time pushing centaur as a playable race and they absolutely despise other species.

>As for ogre even if they dislike the horde en mass, there is still the whole tribe of mok'nathal.
Oh wow. One whole single village of bastard rape children. Yes, this is definitely the argument you should be making when asserting reasons for something to be included as a core race.

Literally read the original post? They aren't core races they are expansion races for time points when their homes would be in the center of attention.
And having a race that is canonically part of the horde, and not just one tribe but any of a specific mix and their family, is about as easy as one almost dead village of a specific tribe of trolls now making up a third the fighting force of the horde.

Enslaved? The Nerubians were SPAWNED by the Old Gods. They're the manifestation of their decay left alive even after the Old Gods were sealed by the titans. They renounced the Old Gods much, much later, but they would never fit with the Horde by their very nature.

If there's no Alliance on Kalimdor, how do Alliance players get to Ahn'qiraj? Same with Horde and Zul'Gurub.

Yeah, Sylvanas needs to be less of an amoral asswipe, maybe be way into freeing other undead from the Scourge's control, not so she can rule them but so they can be independent like her. Of course, most people don't want their recently zombified relations to just come rolling up, so the Forsaken is where they can stay.
Hell, maybe that's why the Horde accepts them, because they respect their attempt at emancipation.

I've also always thought it'd be neat if Sylvanas claimed to be the Queen of Lordaeron. She is technically Arthas' direct offspring.

Boats owned by neutral parties like the Steamwheedle Cartel. Furthermore without crossing borders Horde and Alliance might just not be at war all the time.

>She is technically Arthas' offspring.
Only if you buy into the stupid "raising dead is how we procreate" meme that's been thrown around ever since Cataclysm.
The Sylvanas you described was a real thing up untill after Wrath, when she got what she wanted, essentially, and then went total evil rather than just an ends justify the means type. The problem still remained that she was holding a large part of Lordaeron for the sake of a "race" that should by all rights be in their fucking graves in any rational fantasy setting. And of course when everything went to shit all the Sylvanas apologists came out to defend "pragmatism" and "survival of the race" and a bunch of other fanboy nonsense. If that's the end result it would've been fucking wise to not let them into the Horde in the first place, because it's so obvious they're not a true, honorable Horde race it actually hurts.

>She is technically Arthas' offspring
Please no. There is no way you can call her in anyway an offspring of Arthas or the Lich King. That just doesn't make any sense, as said it's just a stupid undead Cata meme.

>Queen of Lordaeron.
The Kingdom of Lordaeron isn't a thing anymore there is no more king or queen of it. it's the undercity now and Sylvanas is the leader but she didn't reform it and crown herself, she is just the leader of the forsaken.

The Lich King was not even fucking good. Arthas was, but Arthas as we know him died with the Frozen Throne. The Lich King is some generic evil overlord with nothing special about him.

Factions were a mistake.

>"race" that should by all rights be in their fucking graves in any rational fantasy setting.
>Sentient race capable of good whose primary goal is to destroy the primary source of all other undead in the setting.
>Should be in their graves
>What

>There should've been Nelf Females, Nelf Males

So like, if Nelf female and male count as separate races with distinct class options, the different "gender" option should let Nelf males choose to be either like the faggy males in the game right now or manly man Druid of the Claw types. As for females I guess an option between the elongated weirdos in the game now or actual amazon elf women.

That idle animation - you know, THAT ONE - is the perfect example of everything that went wrong with night elves.

Well their primary goal is done, time to move on, back to your cemetary corpsefag.
What's that? You don't wanna go? You fear genocide? You're afraid you can't procreate? You're going to slaughter the living and kill turn them into your own brand of undead? You're gonna become the very thing you sought to destroy because the grave is too icky?
Yeah, shut the fuck up.

The Scourge isn't destroyed or gone it's simply inactive right now because of Bovar taking the crown as Lich King, he's keeping the Scourge from running over Azeroth killing everyone. Sylvanas and the Forsaken had to momentarily turn their attention to the Legion as that the threat with the most priority right now.

Are you implying Southshore was a secret Cult of the Damned base

Not really though it would make sense for at least a few residents of Southshore to have been or be associated with the Cult of the Damned in someway.

The campaign in Cataclysm was done under Garrosh's orders. Sylvanas wouldn't have even fucked with Gilneas if not for him. Nevermind that Southshore and Tarren Mill have a history of conflict from Vanilla with no clear moral upright actor. If you have a problem with it, take it up with the orcs and the writing team. As for genocide? Yeah, if I just helped knock off the Lich King and people wanted my race to go back to bed now, I'd be a little pissed too.

He's not implying anything, he doesn't know the lore.
Bolvar contains the Scourge's forces and manages the current Death Knights. What he doesn't do is run the Cult of the Damned, which is an enemy of the current Death Knights, the Alliance and the Horde. Conspiciously during the battle for Andorhal, where the Horde and Alliance were fighting each other as well as a Scourge Lich, Sylvanas actively punished Horde's Death Knight commander Koltira for working with Alliance Death Knight commander Thassarian because of a temporary cease fire to deal with the Scourge first.
But it's impressive how many people actively forget lore involving the Forsaken. It's almost like it's stuff you'd associate with a villain NPC race rather than a playable faction.

Get it through your thick head: you can't genocide corpses. The Forsaken are a people in name only. Sylvanas committed suicide after killing Arthas and but then Knaak Mary Sued her back and with a vengeance. They should be DEAD and BURIED. Nobody wants to be a corpse, especially not in the Warcraft setting, it's a misguided fantasy that should never be enabled! When Aragorn called for the fucking Oathbreakers he let them go to their peace when their job was done! It's over! Dead men don't fucking walk!

I can if they're sentient, capable of moral action, and have no desire to be. You're making an apples to oranges comparison here. The Forsaken aren't mindless, nor are they interested in their final slumber now that they've completed their task. They have as much right to exist as any other race in the setting by the sheer fact that they continue to do so in the face of their enemies. The Forsaken embody the prevailing ethos of the Horde as well as any of its other core races, you're just assblasted because you don't like the zombies running around.

>When you try to prove a point in one setting with an example from a completely different setting

tried to add the discord but didn't work. I'm interested in playing.

Oh hey, Warcraft threads. Haven't seen these in a wh-
>Warcraft went to shit with [expansion/game after I got into it], how do we retcon this?
>Garithosposting
>I want Warcraft to be more like Hearthstone, SO WACKY XD
>PURGE
>did Illidan and Maiev fuck yet
>X did nothing wrong
>X was a mistake
Sigh.

Lets discuss quel thalas
Wonder what it would have been like to live there after the second war.

>I want Warcraft to be more like Hearthstone, SO WACKY XD
Wait, there are no people that say that here, right? I mean you have to be 18+ to post, right?

Do you realize what board you are on?

Mean Streets of Gadgetzan is literally the most interesting use of Warcraft lore in over a decade.

The whimsical and funny elements of Warcraft are pretty much the only things that make it worth a shit.

Underage b&!

These things get off topic pretty fast but sometimes there's some decent discussion.

Also if Blizzard ever redid their RPG what would you like to see in it? What would you like to not see in it?

Daily Reminder that goblins lives in a complete libertarian society and it's perfectly fine.

It must be fine, the great prince Gallywinx pay me to say so.

Something closer to Warcraft's setting mechanically, particularly in class design.

I just want quantum computers to become a thing and for Blizzard to hire Toady, then use his genius to make an advanced Starcraft RPG where whatever insane coding the man does for Dwarf Fortress determines the entire world of character and their stats out of a selection of things like social skills, likes, dislikes, voice actor, genetic abnormalities, powers, cybernetics, then lets you play one of them in some colony. Think Dwarf Fortress Adventure Mode but with Blizzards graphics, cinematics, budget, quantum computers. Then I don't know, get Brian Kindregan and some of the other better writers back and write a story for it that the code somehow converges to help it make sense as well.
I don't know, basically what I want seems technologically impossible but I had a dream about being an amoeba whose generational evolution eventually resulted in one of the people boarded on the original 4 super carriers and I have since wanted to explore that idea in a game where EVERYONE was super detailed randomly generated including myself.
Does this make sense to anyone?

Put yourself in cry stasis, then give yourself some cybernetic modifications. You will have ensured one way trip to Koprulu sector that way.

Fuck off Kossak you necrophiliac bastard.

>Velen starts to agree with Illidone that Naaru are not perfect, and that one needs balance of Light and Shadow

This seems like a storyline that was already handled better by the Arrakoa quests in WoD (One of its few good parts.)

Some needs time to learn lessons.

No, you don't understand! I don't want to be in Koprulu, I want to play an RPG as a randomly generated character in a randomly worldgenerated Koprulu that still conforms to a well written story because of hard-core coding and quantum computing with no cost in detail, graphics, quality or depth!

That's fair. The power level in Warcraft compared to a usual rpg setting is a lot higher so being able to bring that up to get that Warcraft feel would be awesome.

I think I get what you're trying to say. You basically want sci-fi Dwarf Fortress. Not sure if this is the thread for you then.

No, because Dwarf Fortress doesn't have any plot. user asked what kind of RPG I would like to see from Blizzard and I just want it to be impossible to achieve with current computing power and programming, because you'd have to program the game to make random generated High Budget cinematics, random generated voice acting, random generated storytelling all set in the Starcraft universe. Also, if the lore starts sucking you can just reboot the world! But the very best thing about it is if you do it right it'd be a game you'd never stop playing and noone would need MMO's anymore because random generated super realistic detailed NPC's are better than real people you meet on the internet anyway.

Mean Streets of Gadgetzan actually did some plot progress outside of Area Currently Used In This Expansion, which makes sense, as years passed since Cataclysm, so expansion of Gadgetzan is something that would happen.

>>did Illidan and Maiev fuck yet
They really should

What if the horde had won the second war like in the Warcraft 2 campaign?

Pretty sure last thread an user thought Illidan was Maiev's prison bitch

His tears said no, but his boner said yes.

That would require Gul'dan to not betray his Legion masters back then and help Orgrim do the thing.
Then Gul'dan would gain the power of the Eye of Sargeras, and likely the Jeweled Scepter of Sargeras, without any problem.
And Legion would win, as Gul'dan would open them the way to Azeroth right afterwards.

It's not really plot progression, though. It's just "Gadgetzan is huge now, because we want to do gangster jokes". It has zero continuity with the rest of the setting aside from a Noggenfogger cameo, and the factions don't have anything to do with the actual area. It's just a big genre reference, and they didn't even manage to stick with it for all the factions. The Kabal is just a generic mage cult, and the Lotus is little more than "here's some Pandaria stuff".

>Kabal is generic mage cult
>Creating red mana that increases potency of magic and potions
>Leader may or may not be a Nightmare Dragon
>Parts of a strange Ethereal are used to bind potions to make them more stable

>Lotus is just Pandaria stuff
>Leader is gathering Jade to create golem war machines powered by a soul of long forgotten Mogu king

The only faction that is relatively generic is the mafia one.

As is often the case with Warcraft lore, these days especially, it was an interesting idea with what I'd say was lackluster execution.

Is Turalyon an Alt-Light weeb who writes for Lightbart news?

>generic mafia just wants to be organized crime
>only "police" presence in Gadgetzan is a crazy undead Gnome
>Paladins back generic mafia because otherwise nobody will be able to stop Kun and Kazakus - Han'Cho is the least of three evils

You know what, I'll take it.

>Uses Draenei/Eredar phrases
>Fanatically loyal to a Windchime, despite the fact said Windchime imprisoned his wife for having a bit too much contact with Void powers against Windchime's wishes
>Wanted to kill guy who shattered said Windchime when it tried to enforce Light transformation on him
Yup, definitely alt-Light

>Bain's defense of Garrosh started trend of Tauren law defenders
>Night Elf reporters and investigators
Sure, maybe it all started as a joke HS expansion, but it's a joke with interesting potential.