Casters rule, martials drool

I mean, it does. Superhero comics often feature characters who are effectively superhuman just through training or skill. The problem is that they're such a different genre from fantasy that people get just as unhappy when you try to insert "capeshit" into games like D&D as they do when you try to insert "weebshit."

Have you tried not playing D&D?

Because we have a frame of reference for the limitations of the physical. We don't have one for magic, which can be defined as "everything we don't understand".

Magic quite literally does the impossible, which is why game designers who don't have any talent or proper playtesting are inclined to make it nigh-limitless in potential.

I had an idea related to this recently.
What about giving martial characters extra bonuses to more meta stuff?

Like, give them a combat intuition or sixth sense. In fluff terms the character is simply very experienced and can predict things, but in game terms the DM would give them foreshadowing about their enemy's resources and combat capabilities. A skilled fighter may be able to give a good estimate about the number of goblins in a cave, for example, or be able to guess how the evil lord will field his army based on X and Y and Z.
You'd be giving your players insight into future events (with accuracy depending on level and possibly how much they upgrade this skill), which makes them much more valuable to the team. They could help your casters choose spells beforehand, and you could probably give them other bonuses. If they plan their formation, for example, they may be immune to ambushes, or something.

Just an idea.

which is double dumb because they acceept an internal power for paladins, they just call this power divine or mystical, bubt it's still energy that buffs up one's phyisical attributes

Well the greeks had pankration a martial art which had a concept pretty similiar to chi called pneuma.

so you're giving them magical abilities but pussyfooting around calling them that

Is bardic knowledge magic?

>luck
>pluck
>scholarly strategist's cunning
>the experience of hundreds of battles with their life on the line
>"it's magic so no mechanics 4u! ;)"

Yeah no m8

The answer isn't necessarily to limit casters, but to expand martials.

Bending, Hokuto Shinken & its various offshoots, magical weapons, all these open up possibilities & expansions.

I'm played plenty that aren't afraid of limiting casters. The only ones that seem afraid of limiting casters that I've played have all been D&D variants.

You do realise games other than D&D exist right?

Obviously not.
They're not even aware of 4e.

In the GURPS basic Magic system, powerful magic is fatiguing and the means to get more energy (in the form of stones which contain it) can be directly control by the game master. If the GM was a dick, he could also limit skill level - because having high skill reduces the cost of spells.

controlled* not "control."

What games manage to balance martials and mages the best?
I see a lot of examples posted about games that balance that sort of thing poorly, but what are some examples we should follow instead of avoid?

D&D 4e

Magic is entirely based on perception. It's useful against dumb peasants, but the spread of scientific knowledge is weakening it as a whole. One of the most powerful tricks against a mage is just to truly believe what is happening isn't real.

Kind of like "fairies don't exist" could kill fairies.

Magic itself is exhausting to do, difficult to train, and controlled by one group.

I don't get why peopel are so opposed to martials having some sort of lifespirit or energy that improves their physical stats and defense against magic and is raised by physical training and combat.

But anyway, you could still increase their power by simply ignoring real world physics and biology, which is somethign you already do in fantasy.

Due to whatever reason you want to bullshit on, training causes their musles to grow denser and their body to form stronger carbon bonds.
Carobin fibers and metals are embedded into their bones making the stronger and more flexible, and their skin grows with minerals asorbed in, making it tougher and more resistant.
The type of training and battles they go through will increase various aspects of their physical pewer and defense. As well as their stamina and their recovery and healing rate.
Their focus and oncentration improve as well, giving them enhanced senses and reactions. So they can for instance feel an attack coming by the ari movement on their skin.
They also gain a degree of control on their bodies. Beng able for instance to close an injury to prevent bleeding, or to sweat out large amounts of water to ptrotect themselves from a fire, and to use the humidity in the air that they breathe to quickly replenish their liquids.

It's fantasy, what stops you?

>I don't get why peopel are so opposed to martials having some sort of lifespirit or energy that improves their physical stats and defense against magic and is raised by physical training and combat.
Because giving them a counter to mages isn't making them as cool as mages, it's making mages as shitty as them.

>Superhero comics often feature characters who are effectively superhuman just through training or skill.
That's actually incredibly rare, and limited typically to magic characters and the occasional Wuxia-esque cape. Pretty much anyone with super powers gains them from some source, if they weren't born with them.

>Anything that isn't hitting things with a stick is magic.
Ebin.

there's plenty of "normal human" characters who perform superhuman feats. Like batman, or any character who shoots arrows

>making martials better makes mages worse

What kind of screwed up zero-sum philosophy is that?

Giving martials anti-magic powers does not give martials awesome power, it renders the casters' awesome power useless. The martial still better, he's lowering the competition to his level. That's why the suggestion of just making them resistant to magic does nothing to improve the situation.

>still isn't* better

The thing is, we do. Western civilisation might not have a formal internal power like chi, but mythology and fiction is full of people who can do incredible things because of great personal ability from Greek heroes to Arthurian knights and pulp adventurers.

The problem is just D&D's reference base. It drew heavily on Conan for Fighting Men and Rogues, and originally drew on Vance for magic. However when third edition rolled around they just slapped together anything they thought was cool.

Literally nothing in that post gives martials anti-magic. You're just a paranoid fag who's afraid of having to share the spotlight with someone even after picking the "optimal" class.

>I don't get why peopel are so opposed to martials having some sort of lifespirit or energy that improves their physical stats and defense against magic and is raised by physical training and combat.
>improves their physical stats and defense against magic
>defense against magic
I prefer playing martials myself desu. But I also prefer 4e where none of this is an issue to begin with

making then durable and resistant to magic attacks doesn't give them anti-magic powers. Nor does it make casters useless. It just gives martials a fighting chance against casters.
>he's lowering the competition to his level
>That's why the suggestion of just making them resistant to magic does nothing to improve the situation.
making them resistant to magic is the contrary of lowering the competition to his level. It's raising him to the level of the competition.

Let me rephrase it then. It's giving martials passive buffs. Passive buffs are boring. The goal is to make martials not boring. This does not help.

>Why are ttrpgs so afraid of limiting casters just a smidge so that there's at least one or two things martials can do that casters can't?
Have you tried playing D&D

Most of the caster hate comes from D&D 3e / Pathfinder.

You can fix those systems easily enough with a couple house rules, provided your players aren't the sort to break out into autistic screeching over it.

5e is close enough that my players don't care. The notion of 'tiers' still exists, but the extremes are gone.

You mean actually following the rules. A caster in 3.5 needs reagents for each spell, many of which could be rare or not easy to restock on

A majority of it is extremely inconsequential shit on par with bellybutton flint.

GURPS Basic Magic system, assuming you have a competent GM who doesn't give the caster a bunch of easy ways to get energy for spells (powerstones, enchanted items, etc.).

>You mean actually following the rules.
Actual rules:
>A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

>3.5

Due to the fluff and flavor of my campaign world, I'm considering making casters + clerics into one support magic user style class.

The only problem is I'm not sure if people would want to play them.

With the exception of Moon Druid but autistic fucks don't play them for some reason.

>Due to my strength I can single handidly uproot a small tree or knock over structural supports.
>With My amazing Constitution I can confidently trick another into finishing my drink of poisoned mulberry wine knowing I'll survive long enough to receive medical attention whilst they won't.
>Alternatively my Dexterity is that of a Rogues, and everyone knows the tricks they can perform.

As a general rule Martials do lose out on utility in return for higher combat prowess, but if you lack inspiration you won't find much to do in Roleplay games.

Also shitty editions are shit, if consensus is that the game is shit for balance houserule balance or play another game.

Why limit castersv
and not just buff martials?

Because people don't read epic poetry, they don't know about all the crazy shit Knights got up to.

Have you tried not playing D&D? Actually, I take that back, as 4E legitimately fixed that issue.

>I don't get why peopel are so opposed to martials having some sort of lifespirit or energy that improves their physical stats and defense against magic and is raised by physical training and combat.
The weird thing is that D&D already has this. If you're high enough level then certain spells like Sleep and Cloudkill just don't work on you. Wizards also need more valuable gems if they want to trap your soul or turn you into an undead, and they can even measure how much it takes.

>logic and strategy = magic
I guess military generals and chess players are wizards by that logic.

Way better to just nerf spells that cause problems rather than spend ages doing wizard fetch quests.

Symbaroum makes a good system of this. Overdraw your magic and you start gaining permanent Corruption. Once that passes a threshold, you start getting blightmarks, which make you a target for even the peoples you might have tentatively called your allies. Eventually that Corruption surpasses your ability to store it, and results in direct character death, the PC becoming a mindless NPC that is immediately hostile and only bestially intelligent, though perhaps a bit more clever when it comes to employing the PC's skills in life as they are now in NPC death.

Magic becomes a huge liability, because if you overdraw your magic abilities, you suffer a condition that becomes very difficult to even mitigate, and is often more convenient to hide than to go to the extreme and sometimes fatal lengths it would take to cure. Of course, some powers and artifacts actually give you extra power based on your PC's corruption value, so there's incentive to walk the line and accept corruption, but every ounce of overdrawn power brings you one step closer to being damned.

Interesting pic, what is it from?

>Martial: Muscle-Wizards
>Divine: God-Wizards
>Nature: Dirt-Wizards
>Arcane: Wizard-Wizards
4e was a caster-only game, user.

If you define "caster" as "class able to function in its intended role", then sure.

Everybody always forgets Psionics and Primals.

Does she rip off his nipple in this picture?

>Once a day, I can pull off a super-power. Clearly that's not casting magic.
>Only one edition of DnD functions.
>We talk about classes having 'roles', which is basically something invented by MMOs, but don't you fucking dare mention vidya about my precious 4e.
Don't know why I bother.

because some anime character might have done whatever buff you suggest once, thereby forever making it "weebshit". Even if characters from Western myths had been doing it for thousands of years the moment some willowy teenager with saucer sized eyes and pointy hair does it you can throw any other examples away in the eyes of Veeky Forums

>We talk about classes having 'roles', which is basically something invented by MMOs, but don't you fucking dare mention vidya about my precious 4e.

3.5 Classes had roles too, as did AD&D. I mean 'the fighter is there to protect the squishy guys' has basically been the core of D&D forever. Classes have also had limited use powers beyond spells for god damn ages. The Bard can only sing so much, the Barbarian can only rage so much etc.

Because you get off on yelling "fuck u, ur wrong" in response to people rationally explaining this stuff to you and nobody being able to confront you on it because we're on an anonymous image board.

You see, this is just the kinda thing that Good DM's do for good players and roleplayers when they invest their very few skill ranks into a "Profession(Soldier)" stat and are okay with settling for starting with a 14 in strength just so they can qualify for both Combat Expertise and Leadership.

Shame that people don't work with their DM's with this kinda thing and try to find tools to get invested in the story via their mechanics in ways that aren't just arguing semantics about spell descriptions.

He does mention dirt-wizards.

>You see, this is just the kinda thing that Good DM's do for good players and roleplayers when they invest their very few skill ranks into a "Profession(Soldier)" stat and are okay with settling for starting with a 14 in strength just so they can qualify for both Combat Expertise and Leadership.

Alternatively: Why not build it into the class? Roleplaying and mechanics are not enemies.

>logic and strategy

reread that post
>sixth sense
>foreshadowing about their enemy's resources and combat capabilities
>insight into future events

you're giving them divination powers

>you're giving them divination powers

Sherlock Holmes is a divination wizard?

>you're giving them divination powers
And burning someone with a torch is actually casting a fireball.

It looks like this faggot clearly doesn't understand the differences between some (Ex) and some (Su) powers that actually have similar effects.

Learn 2 system mastery faggot

That's not same at all. The whole point of chi is that it's a universal energy where mastery and discipline gets you great results. Western power is outside help or is plain innate skill.

>intuition is magic

Is this autism?

What kind of magic is autism?

It is when it gives effects that surpass what you could achieve with Sense Motive or Perception skill check, user.

what that user was proposing was beyond intuition
>I feel that there are 20 goblins in this ccave
>i feel that the enemy has a huge army

one should be able to reconstruct something based on hints, if he has high intuition or strategy.
if he has a "sixth sense" then it goes beyond that and into the real of magic

So roll it into a very tough perception/sense motive and have the power give a +20 bonus when using the skill for that purpose.

Of course, if you weren't retarded, you'd notice that this is functionally the same, except for extra steps to placate your 'tism.

I guess hard-boiled detectives that know when trouble's afoot are wizards. I guess a brilliant strategist that can predict his opponent's plans before he makes them are sorcerers.

Making a martial character slightly more proficient than the average human being in our current, modern, real world does not equate to making them magic. This kind of reasoning is how you get bullshit like high level Monks in Pathfinder being worse at punching people than certain real human beings.

>I feel that there are 20 goblins in this ccave

That sounds like something a ranger could do by looking at tracks heading in and out of a cave (If he was good enough)

What about abilities that say, expand the skill's capabilities? Like how a rogue can hide in ways a wizard can't without using spells and can sneak attack people because he's got training the wizard doesn't?

Just have all melee run around with null magic rings and full masterwork equipment.

that is not a sixth sense nor intuition nor a foreshadowing which is what the original poster was suggesting.

>get smashed by dragons whose skin their weapons can't even penetrate.

There's no such thing as penetration immunity in D&D
If anything full martials with full BAB have a better chance of penetrating dragon-hide or even ESPECIALLY Terrasque-hide than anything else, thanks to how AC is handled.

Only inanimate objects and constructs have structural hardness as attributes.
And even then, the closest that creatures can have is DR X/Adamantine, which Adamantine is literally a special material that is essentially useless in the hands of anything BUT a pure martial. Shit doesn't even have to be magic, just made from some fucking naturally occuring space rock.

Sorry to say it mate, but you're objectively wrong by the canon rules of like the top 3 most popular RPG systems.

>what that user was proposing was beyond intuition
And? Those are heroes that have skills beyond the possible.

d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm
>Adamantine

>This ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20. Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/- if it’s light armor, 2/- if it’s medium armor, and 3/- if it’s heavy armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not.

d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm

>wyrm... DR 20/magic

Jeez, would you look at that... Adamantite weapons do dick all to dragons.

And while we are at it

>d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype

>An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms.

D&D reference
There're tons of myths and traditions that have martials as superhuman, but D&D, by being among the first rpgs and the most famous, introduced the notion of martials being just dudes who swing metal rods more or less ok and casters daily basis reality benders able to create demiplanes easily. Now everybody is influenced by this notiong and the pool is contaminated

If you go by the book all of that is piss easy to pass. I hope you reworked stuff.

Making them slightly more proficient than average human being isn't enough to narrow the power gap between them and wizards by far, user, which was the entire point to begin with. What use is a hard-boiled detective's intuition when his quarry can change the very nature of reality at his whim?

My current monk moves at 500 kmph, can fall from any high without taking damage and can punch through adamantine like it's butter, he's still billion times worse than our wizard. Even making martials clearly superhuman doesn't work

Or GURPS

Cast time and remove the feats that make silent casting possible.

They cast a spell and EVERYONE will know it and have time to stab their 1d6 hp ass.

>Wings of cover
>Emergency Force Sphere
>All those immediate action spells that say "nope" to attacks

>Fixing casters
>Fixing martials
People really don't understand how ingrained in the system is caster supremacy and martial shittiness,

Just an example
Did you know that 1/4th of the distance you cover in a long jum is the height you reach? so, if you jump farther than 40ft you reach higher than 10ft, easy. Well, did you know that if you fall from a distance you take 1d6 damage per every 10ft and fall prone? Well, there you go, your monk can jump super high thanks to his speed, class features and skills? doesn't matter, he'll end prone everytime

Have to jump a 50ft chasm? prone at the end, ready to be shanked by the enemies in the other side
Have to jump from one roof to another in a exciting chase? prone everytime
Etc

Shit like this is everywhere, most of it is not obvious at all, and it keeps martials fucked

This is why magic should take time to cast.

Ah, yes, of course I meant motherfucking 3.PF which seems to be everyfucking where and among the most played games ever.

Do I sound mad? oh god yes I'm mad, because in my town nobody seems to play other systems.